CD vs lossless from iTunes

[Gerrardasnails]

gravy1:
Ok im wondering if there is a difference in playback between:

1) internal cd/dvd player from the pc connected via onboard soundcard (s/pdif) to receiver.

2) internal cd/dvd player from the pc connected via dedicated soundcard (s/pdif) to receiver.

3) normal cd player connected via s/pdif to receiver.

In all these situations there will be a digital signal from source to amp, will this digital signal change (hearable) in any of these options?

(the receiver could also be a hi-fi amp with digtal input)

of course there would be

 

[Anonymous]

I only tried option 1 and 2 but couldn't hear any difference.

I'm not very technical but the source is the same cd, so what will change the sound when using a dedicated cd-player instead? The amp will do the decoding (digital-analog) in all cases, the dac of the cd-player will be bypassed this way.

 

[Anonymous]

Posts are getting old now, at the moment im looking at it this way, bearing in mind i havent tried any pc music via a sep dac or owt...

You can listen to a cd on a half decent cd player to hear music.

And you can listen to music stored on your pc, with other bits of kit involved, goin into your hifi amp, to try and make it sound as good as from the cd.

I cant imagine the latter being better unless your going to spend mega money. Guna have to keep trapsing into the dining room for a handful of cd's

 

[chebby]

reggaedave: ....bearing in mind i havent tried any pc music via a sep dac or owt...

Then you need to try it.

reggaedave: You can listen to a cd on a half decent cd player to hear music.

I prefer a decent one.

reggaedave: And you can listen to music stored on your pc, with other bits of kit involved, goin into your hifi amp, to try and make it sound as good as from the cd.

Only a DAC.

reggaedave: I cant imagine the latter being better unless your going to spend mega money.

'Imagination' is no good as an argument when discussing the issue with people who have actually done the comparison properly between lossless (via a DAC) and their CD players rather than just imagined it.

As for 'megabucks'... well, about £120 - £250 for a DAC that will compare very favourable with most (good) CD players up to the £500 level at least. (And not even necessarily with lossless either. 256 - 320k AAC is enough with some material.)

Notwithstanding all that, I actually prefer CD replay - on my present system - and enjoy my DAC for convenience and for material that is not CD based like BBC iPlayer, internet radio, youtube , sound from DVDs/TV, and some Freeview radio channels I can't get from FM.

Maybe if I had spent the equivalent money - to my CD player - on something like a Benchmark DAC instead, then it might all be different. I will have to just imagine that scenario for now

I am happy with the way I have got things right now and would rather go down the naimuniti route (with all my present system in one box) than 'close down' a format by exchanging the CD player for a better DAC.

 

[JoelSim]

iTunes 9. Equaliser off is how it was set.

 

[Anonymous]

Ill have to borrow a Dacmagic from my local richer sounds. Surely thats an good average dac to do a home test with.

Do a survey of cd player + pc dac owners, best listening, would bet more folk prefer their cd player..

But ill have to see myself.

dave

 

[John Duncan]

reggaedave:cd player + pc dac owners, best listening, would bet more folk prefer their cd player

You owe me twenty guineas.

 

[chebby]

JoelSim:iTunes 9. Equaliser off is how it was set.

Best to run through all the settings...

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/ITunes-QuickTime_for_Mac_-_Setup_Guide

Only takes a moment or two.

 

[John Duncan]

fatboyslimfast:JoelSim: iTunes into Airfoil through Airport Express

Have you tried just using iTunes directly? Having done some tests (albeit rudimentary and definitely sighted), I'm of the opinion that iTunes>AE seems to sound better than iTunes>Airfoil>AE.

Of course, that's not to knock Airfoil's extreme usefulness for other music progs such as Spotify and iRadio stations, which I wouldn't be without.

Yeah I expect iTunes direct has a minor advantage, since it probably decodes to PCm before transmitting rather than the encrypted apple lossless used by iTunes/AE direct. But I'm not going to try to convince you that that setup is *bound* to be better than a 2.5k CD player. But it's good sound-per-pound which has always been my point.

 

[Craig M.]

joel, if your itunes is set up correctly, the difference is probably in
how your cdp handles input jitter. i've read something which said the
AE has high jitter.

 

[Anonymous]

This is very unlikely to be an issue with jitter from the AE. I would put money on it being something with either ITunes or the Airfoil application. Unfortunately I don't know much about either but given the type of behaviour that would need to be implemented in the Airfoil app to achieve this type of streaming then that would be my first guess.

Have you tried connecting the computer directly to the DAC to rule out Airfoil and AE?

 

[The_Lhc]

gravy1:Ok im wondering if there is a difference in playback between:
1) internal cd/dvd player from the pc connected via onboard soundcard (s/pdif) to receiver.

2) internal cd/dvd player from the pc connected via dedicated soundcard (s/pdif) to receiver.

3) normal cd player connected via s/pdif to receiver.

Yes, there's a difference, you'd have to be insane to play a CD in real-time, from a PC's optical drive. I don't think anyone's talking about that.

Personally I don't even like the idea of getting the PC to play a ripped file out through the soundcard. As a number of threads here have indicated there are very few soundcards that won't muck about with the data in some way. The only way to prevent this is to send the data to a network streamer (Sonos, Squeezebox etc) and play it that way, only then can you have any confidence in what you're hearing, IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

Stereolad:
This is very unlikely to be an issue with jitter from the AE. I would put money on it being something with either ITunes or the Airfoil application. Unfortunately I don't know much about either but given the type of behaviour that would need to be implemented in the Airfoil app to achieve this type of streaming then that would be my first guess.

Have you tried connecting the computer directly to the DAC to rule out Airfoil and AE?

air express jitter into a dac is about 258 ps according to stereophile

 

[Anonymous]

Yes 258 pico seconds. Do you think that might be responsible for the difference in presentation being reported?

 

[JoelSim]

It could just be the fact that the CDP sounds better than the lossless...

Like I said though I have yet to try out a few CDs and files which I will do this evening as the OH is out at her Xmas party.

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
It could just be the fact that the CDP sounds better than the lossless...

But how - what part of the cdp can sound better? Given the cdp dac is being used, if jitter and s/w configurations can't explain the degree of perceived difference then what else is there? If we were talking very minor differences then maybe that could be explained away, but the described perceptual differences sounded pretty significant which doesn't make sense.

Suggest the laptop plugged directly into the cdp dac and a bit of blind testing here...

 

[Anonymous]

Stereolad:Yes 258 pico seconds. Do you think that might be responsible for the difference in presentation being reported? id guess thats unlikely because thats well below the audible level and in fact lower than many cd players

 

[JoelSim]

Rob_manchester:JoelSim:

It could just be the fact that the CDP sounds better than the lossless...

But how - what part of the cdp can sound better? Given the cdp dac is being used, if jitter and s/w configurations can't explain the degree of perceived difference then what else is there? If we were talking very minor differences then maybe that could be explained away, but the described perceptual differences sounded pretty significant which doesn't make sense.

Suggest the laptop plugged directly into the cdp dac and a bit of blind testing here...

It could be that the CD has more info on it than the lossless, which when played through the same equipment, actually sounds better.

Or it could be just that the CDP's internals/transport/wiring is actually made for purpose. It's a very nice CDP.

The differences were in the overall ambience of the tune, the warmth.

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:Rob_manchester:JoelSim:

It could just be the fact that the CDP sounds better than the lossless...

But how - what part of the cdp can sound better? Given the cdp dac is being used, if jitter and s/w configurations can't explain the degree of perceived difference then what else is there? If we were talking very minor differences then maybe that could be explained away, but the described perceptual differences sounded pretty significant which doesn't make sense.

Suggest the laptop plugged directly into the cdp dac and a bit of blind testing here...

It could be that the CD has more info on it than the lossless,

Did you rip the CD to lossless yourself? If that's the case then, at the very least it should have the same info on it, arguably there could be MORE info in the lossless file, if EAC or the like was used. Your CDP can't look up on a database to find missing info it can't read something off the CD, it has to guess, the PC can, that's the whole point of EAC.

I'd put it down to the PC/soundcard doing something to the audio. Until you can test it with a standalone streamer it's not a fair test, if you ask me.

 

[chebby]

'Warmth' in my experience can obscure information and make things slow. However, with a valve output stage behind the CDE's DAC, this should be a constant whatever the 'input'.

Ripping a lossless track (with error correction switched on in iTunes preferences) means you get a bit perfect file, whereas with normal CD replay this is not always the case (depending upon the condition of the CD and the efficacy of the CDP's error correction algorithms.)

Also I would level the 'playing field' by connecting directly with optical to your MacBook. All the AE/Airfoil gubbins can only serve to obscure the outcome. (There is no wireless link between your CD transport and DAC after all.)

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
It could be that the CD has more info on it than the lossless.

The differences were in the overall ambience of the tune, the warmth.

That's the point of lossless. Assuming you ripped from the same cd as lossless then it hasn't lost anything. Of course if you downloaded the file elsewhere I guess it could be a different recording in the first place.

The differences you're describing sound like there's something wrong in your setup. Suggest you try and take links out of the chain to minimise the potential for configuration issues. The noticeable 'warmth' etc of the sound should be from your cdp dac; lossless from your setup *should* be a better transport if anything.

 

[Anonymous]

one off:Stereolad:Yes 258 pico seconds. Do you think that might be responsible for the difference in presentation being reported? id guess thats unlikely because thats well below the audible level and in fact lower than many cd players

And lower than a lot of recording equipment!

 

[John Duncan]

chebby:Also I would level the 'playing field' by connecting directly with optical to your MacBook

Except I have a horrible feeling Joel's Macbook Air is about the only Mac that doesn't have an optical out...

EDIT - indeed it doesn't. And no USB in to the CDP, so airport express is all you've got.

I suspect this might be one of those cases where "hopelessly coloured" sounds better than "high fidelity"...

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:

'Warmth' in my experience can obscure information and make things slow. However, with a valve output stage behind the CDE's DAC, this should be a constant whatever the 'input'.

Ripping a lossless track (with error correction switched on in iTunes preferences) means you get a bit perfect file, whereas with normal CD replay this is not always the case (depending upon the condition of the CD and the efficacy of the CDP's error correction algorithms.)

Also I would level the 'playing field' by connecting directly with optical to your MacBook. All the AE/Airfoil gubbins can only serve to obscure the outcome. (There is no wireless link between your CD transport and DAC after all.)

There's not much point in connecting directly as this will never happen in practice as my sweet spot is not near the stereo so I won't be trailing a 3m cable across the room - I use the laptop when I listen to write posts on this forum.

I ripped it losslessly, EQ off, error correction ticked.

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
There's not much point in connecting directly as this will never happen in practice as my sweet spot is not near the stereo so I won't be trailing a 3m cable across the room - I use the laptop when I listen to write posts on this forum.

People aren't suggesting you leave your laptop directly connected. Just try it initially as a trouble-shooting exercise to see if you sound differences can be attributed to the other components.