Cartridge Upgrade on Pro-ject Debut (TT newbie!)

[margetti]

Had my Pro-ject Debut (MkI) - bought on ebay - for less than a week, and already getting swept up on various forums with the whole upgrade thing! Only bought the Debut to play a few LP's I've managed to keep for goodness knows how many years, but the performance of the Debut has really blown me away (and I know that it is as about budget as you're going to get). Even when compared directly to my Sonneteer Byron CD player it doesn't disgrace itself - there's a harshness in the treble, and a lack of punch in the mid-range, for sure, but for £40 it gives the Bryon (retailing around £900 these days I see) a thing or two to think about.

 Anyway, to my point! I've read more than once that the Debut can be improved by replacing the Ortofon cartridge with an Audio Technica AT95E - can anyone confirm or deny? Is the improvement a night/day one, or more in the subtle category? For £20 seems like a low-cost way to eek a bit more performance out. What other cartridges would be worth considering, keeping in mind the limitations of the Debut (my understanding is that the cartridge is about the only thing that can be upgraded). No point in spending too much if the tonearm for example is going to limit any improvement?

 Also, in the same aforementioned forums, they talk about all sorts of calibration equipment and setting this up and that up (azimuth et al!!!) - are these necessary if I'm going to swap out the cartridge? (If they are then the ecomomic viability of the upgrade goes out the window a bit IMO).

 Thanks in advance 

 

 

[chebby]

Don't worry about all the set-up equipment you are referring to.

An alignment protractor (you will probably have one in the box somewhere).

A set of stylus force scales would be be nice. (But not essential.)

Azimuth (if you really want to get into that) can be checked with a small mirror.

Your deck should sound great with an AT-95E but also consider the Ortofon 2M Red (£65) as well. (This can easily be upgraded by simply slipping in the £90 Ortofon 2M Blue stylus replacement at a later date whereas the AT-95E cannot be upgraded in a similar way.)

 

[margetti]

Thanks chebby, much appreciated and particularly good to know that setting up a new catridge isn't as complicated as it is sometimes made to sound!

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

I'd recommend you make the jump straight away to a moving coil cartridge. One of the cheaper Denons (e.g. DL110) would sound great and in my opinion better than any moving magnet at that sort of price. Denon do great low and high output MC cartridges for well under £100 - you just need to match the output to the phono stage of your amp - does it accept low output moving coils?

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Is it really worth putting a £70 cart on a £150 TT? I would suggest going for the AT-95E mentioned above, as it's a great budget cart...

 

[Anonymous]

fatboyslimfast:Is it really worth putting a £70 cart on a £150 TT? I would suggest going for the AT-95E mentioned above, as it's a great budget cart... Yes, I think so. The musical rewards will be huge, in my honest opinion. Sure, there will be more to be had from the Denon MC if andy upgrades his turntable sometime, but even so the Denon will sing very nicely in his £150 deck, I think.

 

[John Duncan]

I'd keep the current cartridge body (presuming it's an Ortofon OM##) and upgrade the stylus on it - there are OM10, 20 and 30 styli that would be an improvement before messing about with others, with the danger that you'd c--k up the alignment in the fitting of a new one.

Azimuth and height can't be adjusted on the Debut, AFAIK.....

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Actually, good call John. Had totally forgotten that the only difference between the OMs is the stylus profile and that they were interchangeable...

 

[Henley]

Sorry guys but just to clarify a couple of points.

You can't put a moving coil cartridge on a Debut (any variation exc. Esprit) due to the platter being magnetic. To do this you would need to change to either an Acrylic or cast platter.

The Debut MK1 had a counterweight that was held in place by a small grub screw and thus, did not have any callibration on the weight. To set up a cartridge you will need a tracking force gauge.

Po-ject turntables are designed using Ortofon and if you aligh the leading edge of the cartridge to the leading edge of the headshell then the geometry is set. You don't neet to bother with a protractor.

 

[chebby]

So 'Henley'. Do you still sell those nifty little plastic Ortofon stylus tracking force gauges that used to cost about a fiver?

Where can our poster buy one?

If he upgrades to a better OM stylus or a 2M Red (or AT-95E) he will require a different tracking force.

(I have a Shure SFG-2 so I am not asking for me.)

 

[Henley]

Yes, the little "TFG" is still available for around £7 from any Ortofon dealer. And yes, the 2M and the At95 have a higher tracking force than the OM5 which was originally fitted

 

[margetti]

Gosh, don't log in for a few hours, and look what happens!

I like the idea of just changing the stylus - as you say John, less chance of c--king things up (which does worry me a bit if I'm honest).

But that said, I've got the hi-fi upgrade bug for the first time in a long time, and am now wanting to get the best out of the Debut that I can. So much for spending as little as physically possible!

Buying this deck on ebay was just meant to be a bit of a trip down memory lane, you know, dusting off the old LP's and all that. So, I get a Debut MkI on ebay. Knew I'd need a phono amp, but thought I'd just get whatever the cheapest Maplin were offering (was even considering one of their DIY kit sets) - ended up with a CA 640P. (Pretty chuffed getting that at RS for £70 - watched one sell on ebay last night for £53 + £10 P&P).

And now I'm talking about upgrading the cartridge - I've only had the thing a week!

Btw, this deck is going into an Onix amp (for anyone that knows it) and Ruark speakers - both bought in more posperous times - hence the urge to tweak out what I can from the Debut.

ÿ

 

[John Duncan]

I know the Onix well, but not the Ruarks.

Having looked at the prices of OM styli though, it becomes trickier - to upgrade to the OM20 is gonna cost you 80 quid, and there are a lot of cartridges out there for that kind of money which might better it, whereas the OM10 is not much of an upgrade, and will cost you 40 quid......

I might be tempted by the 2M red now......

 

[margetti]

Somebody else that knows the Onix - that's 2 in one day (so did the guy in RS today) - most of the time I either get a blank expression or the assumption I'm talking about Onyx!

ÿJust been looking at the prices of styli myself - a bit shocked. Now, at the risk of really embarrassing myself (but I did put "newbie" in the title, so reserve the right to do so)... when buying a cartridge, that includes the stylus? If yes, why is the price of a styli near-on the price of a complete cartridge?

Confused? Yep, and I doubt confused.com is going to be able to help me on this one!!! ÿ

ÿ

JohnDuncan:I know the Onix well, but not the Ruarks.Having looked at the prices of OM styli though, it becomes trickier - to upgrade to the OM20 is gonna cost you 80 quid, and there are a lot of cartridges out there for that kind of money which might better it, whereas the OM10 is not much of an upgrade, and will cost you 40 quid......I might be tempted by the 2M red now......

 

[Henley]

Firstly the cartridge body normally represents about 25% of the total cost with the stylus being the most expensive part - Hence the prices of styli being nearly as much as the complete cartridge.

Then it's all about volume. Far fewer "OM" styli are produced when compared to 2M series so, ecomony of scale determines that the 2M series cartridges will be far more competative than OM styli. We still manufacture older styli as a service but, unfortunately, there is a cost to be borne for this service.

My advice, don't replace the stylus but buy a new cartridge instead. If you get stuck fitting it then call us for advice.

 

[chebby]

JohnDuncan:I might be tempted by the 2M red now......

You know it makes sense!

 

[John Duncan]

chebby:JohnDuncan:I might be tempted by the 2M red now......

You know it makes sense!

No no, I have one already. Was just saying that having checked out OM stylus prices, I'd be more inclined to go for the 2M Red. Sorry, I do think out loud sometimes......

 

[the record spot]

Oh just slap a Kontrapunkt B on the damn thing!

Okay, I jest. Instead, how about a Denon DL110. £70's worth of genius is a neat little Japanese styled package. Or an AT440MLa, totally different presentation, but two of the best sub-£100 designs out there right now.

 

[margetti]

Thanks Henley, going to pop 'round my local dealer in the next couple of days

 

[chebby]

the record spot:Oh just slap a Kontrapunkt B on the damn thing!

Okay, I jest. Instead, how about a Denon DL110. £70's worth of genius is a neat little Japanese styled package.

Nope. 'Henley' has already warned the OP against MCs being used on platters made from magnetic material.

 

[margetti]

On the back of this thread, and other research thru the magic of google, I'm hedging my bets on the 2M Red... local dealer is listed on Henley's website as an Ortofon "centre of excellence" so will hope they're not too busy when I go in and have a good old fashioned chin wag...ÿ

 

[Greenwich_Man]

With the OM series I can get a stylus to play 78's - can we do that with the 2M's too?

 

[John Duncan]

Don't think so, though I've never really got the difference...

 

[fatboyslimfast]

The stylus footprint is bigger for 78s John - the grooves are wider spaced, and with a standard stylus there is a chance of it "rattling" round in the groove, with the potential for damage to the stylus and/or 78...

 

[the record spot]

chebby:the record spot:Oh just slap a Kontrapunkt B on the damn thing!

Okay, I jest. Instead, how about a Denon DL110. £70's worth of genius is a neat little Japanese styled package.

Nope. 'Henley' has already warned the OP against MCs being used on platters made from magnetic material.

It's the naughty step for me then....!