cables and the foo fighters brigade ...

[TrevC]

What is the point of being a (HiFi Forum) foo fighter?

I actually believe most of HiFi is foo, but I don't see the point of trying to convince everybody else of that.

I see the point of making ultra-expensive cables: $$$. It's a business. Whether the product makes a useful sonic difference or not is beside the point.

I also see the point of small brands, that claim their products are as good as anything else regardless of price, wanting to "fight foo", since it is in their best interest to convince all of us that everything they don't sell is foo...

But what does an individual forum member get from convincing others that expensive cables don't make a difference?

I'm sure the guy who is about to drop $15K on cables is not in a desperate financial position and in need of my advice. If he thinks it makes a difference, it's his money to spend. And even if I somehow convince him that a cheap pair of cables would do the same job. it's not as if he's suddenly going to donate the remainder of the $15K to charity. He'll just spend it on some other hobby... Maybe get a nice watch...

Most of our HiFi squabbles just seem so utterly pointless.

Someone that isn't so well off might waste a high proportion of their budget on pointless things like mains leads, and the truth is important. Do you think it's OK to rip someone off because they have a higher income than you?

 

[hifikrazy]

With all due respect, let's not turn this thread into Groundhog Day. Anyway, like any other cable thread, that thread degenerated into the usual pages and pages of mudslinging,

So sayeth the chief mudslinger. LOL.

Never denied that I do lots of the mudslinging myself

 

[hifikrazy]

Someone that isn't so well off might waste a high proportion of their budget on pointless things like mains leads, and the truth is important. Do you think it's OK to rip someone off because they have a higher income than you?

I just knew "the truth" statement would be the response to that post. However, you are no more qualified to make statements of truth than the most tech averse audiophile.

 

[TrevC]

Someone that isn't so well off might waste a high proportion of their budget on pointless things like mains leads, and the truth is important. Do you think it's OK to rip someone off because they have a higher income than you?

I just knew "the truth" statement would be the response to that post. However, you are no more qualified to make statements of truth than the most tech averse audiophile.

I am more qualified. I understand how things work.

 

[abacus]

If you look at the list of people using the cables on their site, they are almost all musicians, not studios or engineers. Musicians are often far more in the subjectavist camp than the engineers who actually produce the record and are responsible for making the musician sound good. They really aren't the most common cable used in studios at all. There really isn't such a thing as the most common brand.

So musicians whose world revolves around music are poor judges of sound quality?

Most musicians create music, either original or a variation on what has gone before, therefore sound accuracy is not relevant, just the emotive connection. (Guitars and keyboards can be picked up quite cheap these days, so I suggest you try them out, as I guarantee that your exotic cable obsession will disappear)

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Here is an analysis from a magazine that is not hung up with HI Fi myths http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/376468/is-it-worth-paying-for-premium-cables

Bill

 

[CnoEvil]

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Wow!.....just wow! :O

 

[Covenanter]

With all due respect, let's not turn this thread into Groundhog Day. Anyway, like any other cable thread, that thread degenerated into the usual pages and pages of mudslinging,

So sayeth the chief mudslinger. LOL.

Never denied that I do lots of the mudslinging myself

So why don't you stop? It is rather childish after all.

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

If you look at the list of people using the cables on their site, they are almost all musicians, not studios or engineers. Musicians are often far more in the subjectavist camp than the engineers who actually produce the record and are responsible for making the musician sound good. They really aren't the most common cable used in studios at all. There really isn't such a thing as the most common brand.

So musicians whose world revolves around music are poor judges of sound quality?

Most musicians create music, either original or a variation on what has gone before, therefore sound accuracy is not relevant, just the emotive connection. (Guitars and keyboards can be picked up quite cheap these days, so I suggest you try them out, as I guarantee that your exotic cable obsession will disappear)

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Here is an analysis from a magazine that is not hung up with HI Fi myths http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/376468/is-it-worth-paying-for-premium-cables

Bill

That's a good balanced article. Thanks for the link.

Chris

 

[pauln]

With all due respect, let's not turn this thread into Groundhog Day. Anyway, like any other cable thread, that thread degenerated into the usual pages and pages of mudslinging,

So sayeth the chief mudslinger. LOL.

Never denied that I do lots of the mudslinging myself

So why don't you stop? It is rather childish after all.

Chris

He has no other argument.

 

[BenLaw]

If you look at the list of people using the cables on their site, they are almost all musicians, not studios or engineers. Musicians are often far more in the subjectavist camp than the engineers who actually produce the record and are responsible for making the musician sound good. They really aren't the most common cable used in studios at all. There really isn't such a thing as the most common brand.

So musicians whose world revolves around music are poor judges of sound quality?

Most musicians create music, either original or a variation on what has gone before, therefore sound accuracy is not relevant, just the emotive connection. (Guitars and keyboards can be picked up quite cheap these days, so I suggest you try them out, as I guarantee that your exotic cable obsession will disappear)

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Here is an analysis from a magazine that is not hung up with HI Fi myths http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/376468/is-it-worth-paying-for-premium-cables

Bill

That's a good balanced article. Thanks for the link.

Chris

Agreed, interesting. I'd not read that about audio over HDMI before.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am sitting here drinking coffee, munching toast, listening to Anne-Sophie Mutter playing Mozart......and musing about cables ie. trying to get to the bottom of things.

Here is my conclusion:

There are two ways that a view is formed.

1. The Luddite Way.

This is where somebody says to you, "try this and it will make a difference"; or you go to a cable dem and are convinced you hear s difference.

Up to this point, you have put your system together by trusting your ears, so once again you rely on the same method.

Some cables are then brought home, tried in the time-honoured fashion of sticking them into the system and then forming a judgement on what is heard. The cables are either worth their money or they are returned.

All this is often done in the blissful ignorance of any need for verifiable measurements / expectation bias / placebo effect / double blind testing....none of which have been deemed necessary in any of life's more important decisions.

2. The Scientific Way.

You have a science / electronic degree in which you have learned a good understanding of how signal travels through wire. Wire is, after all, just about Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance.

Armed with this knowledge, you are quite certain that you have all the pertinent facts to know what is, and what is not possible. There is no need to test any further, and anything that you read to the contrary, simply has to be wrong, because you know better.....and in the off chance that you do hear a difference, it will be put down to placebo.

3. My Conclusion

I think both sides should learn from each other, but the positions are so entrenched that this seldom happens.

I think it very useful that the "pro cable" side are made aware of the pitfalls (expectation bias etc) and take a very cautious and pragmatic approach when looking at the purchase of cables...never spend more on a cable than would bring a bigger improvement elsewhere in the system.

The "objective science" side should not be so quick to dismiss the experience of such a large body of people ( including I suspect, at least half this forum), without at least doing a little experimentation.

I thought science was about challanging what we think we know and always being open minded enough to test something that so people have experienced.

Anyway, as you were. Get back to the fighting, with both sides doing too much talking and not enough listening (pun intended).

:cheers:

Cno

 

[Vladimir]

This reminds me of the proposal given by Bible Creationist to have a diplomatic solution and teach both Evolution and Creationism in schools on equal footing and letting the children decide for themselves what is truth.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I am sitting here drinking coffee, munching toast, listening to Anne-Sophie Mutter playing Mozart......and musing about cables ie. trying to get to the bottom of things.

Here is my conclusion:

There are two ways that a view is formed.

1. The Luddite Way.

This is where somebody says to you, "try this and it will make a difference"; or you go to a cable dem and are convinced you hear s difference.

Up to this point, you have put your system together by trusting your ears, so once again you rely on the same method.

Some cables are then brought home, tried in the time-honoured fashion of sticking them into the system and then forming a judgement on what is heard. The cables are either worth their money or they are returned.

All this is often done in the blissful ignorance of any need for verifiable measurements / expectation bias / placebo effect / double blind testing....none of which have been deemed necessary in any of life's more important decisions.

2. The Scientific Way.

You have a science / electronic degree in which you have learned a good understanding of how signal travels through wire. Wire is, after all, just about Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance.

Armed with this knowledge, you are quite certain that you have all the pertinent facts to know what is, and what is not possible. There is no need to test any further, and anything that you read to the contrary, simply has to be wrong, because you know better.....and in the off chance that you do hear a difference, it will be put down to placebo.

3. My Conclusion

I think both sides should learn from each other, but the positions are so entrenched that this seldom happens.

I think it very useful that the "pro cable" side are made aware of the pitfalls (expectation bias etc) and take a very cautious and pragmatic approach when looking at the purchase of cables...never spend more on a cable than would bring a bigger improvement elsewhere in the system.

The "objective science" side should not be so quick to dismiss the experience of such a large body of people ( including I suspect, at least half this forum), without at least doing a little experimentation.

I thought science was about challanging what we think we know and always being open minded enough to test something that so people have experienced.

Anyway, as you were. Get back to the fighting, with both sides doing too much talking and not enough listening (pun intended).

:cheers:

Cno

Good post Cno, and good points for both sides. You mention my main issue. Those that firmly believe they know better aren't open minded enough to even entertain that a cable could make some sort of difference. Chances are, they have probably never even tried another cable since choosing their side of the fence.

I will soon be upgrading the cables between my power amp and processor, which is the only part of my system that is now lacking.

 

[pauln]

All this is often done in the blissful ignorance of any need for verifiable measurements / expectation bias / placebo effect / double blind testing....none of which have been deemed necessary in any of life's more important decisions.

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Every type of prescribed medicine you take will have been through extensive testing.

mp3 and other lossy codecs were developed with the aid of extensive double blind testing.

Would you buy a car without looking at the performance figures and mileage consumption?

Would you buy a house without having a survey done?

Ever bought or looked at Which? magazine when contemplating the purchase of a cooker, washing machine, tumble drier or similar?

Would you get on an aeroplane that hadn't been exhaustively tested?

We take for granted that all our buildings, bridges etc have been carefully designed and engineered by qualified people, steel and concrete samples will have been tested to destruction to confirm that their properties conform to specification.

That's all off the top of my head but there must be so many more examples.

Or do you base all your purchasing descions on unverifiable marketing claims?

 

[pauln]

Chances are, they have probably never even tried another cable since choosing their side of the fence.

How can you possibly substantiate a claim like that?

Plenty here have repeatedly said that they have tried other cables and not heard any difference. Oh sorry, that's because they have defective hearing.

 

[Electro]

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Here is an analysis from a magazine that is not hung up with HI Fi myths http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/376468/is-it-worth-paying-for-premium-cables

Bill

This is completetly untrue ! ( I nearly said nonsense )

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/this-week-i-have-mostly-been-listening-to-watching/your-most-recent-gig?page=6

 

[Vladimir]

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Every type of prescribed medicine you take will have been through extensive testing.

mp3 and other lossy codecs were developed with the aid of extensive double blind testing.

Would you buy a car without looking at the performance figures and mileage consumption?

Would you buy a house without having a survey done?

Ever bought or looked at Which? magazine when contemplating the purchase of a cooker, washing machine, tumble drier or similar?

Would you get on an aeroplane that hadn't been exhaustively tested?

We take for granted that all our buildings, bridges etc have been carefully designed and engineered by qualified people, steel and concrete samples will have been tested to destruction to confirm that their properties conform to specification.

That's all off the top of my head but there must be so many more examples.

Or do you base all your purchasing descions on unverifiable marketing claims?

Brilliant post!

I was once asked by a fellow audiophile why do we call subjectivists "flat earths." Well, this is because they give absolute trust in their senses. They see the sun revolving on the sky so it must be the sun going round the earth and since the horizon is flat, the earth must be flat. If I hear a difference between cables, it must be there.

When you tell them that all humans are subject to expectation bias and placebo, that our mind can interpret what the senses are feeding it wrongly, they get upset, feel insulted, as if we told them they are insane, delusional, stupid. That is not true, we are all subject to bias and placebo, we are all fooled by our senses and marketing, difference being some listen to reason and some trust their senses. I have been fooled many many times while buying cables, voltage stabilizers, amplifiers, doing tweaks etc. No one is immune and no one has Golden Ears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humility

 

[Alec]

With all due respect, let's not turn this thread into Groundhog Day.

Hahahahahahahahaha ad infinitum.

 

[Vladimir]

Ned: Phil?

Phil: Ned?

[Punches Ned in the face]

 

[Alec]

How do you sex a handbag, anyway? Where can I learn to do it, and maybe even get a job doing it?

 

[Frank Harvey]

How can you possibly substantiate a claim like that?

Plenty here have repeatedly said that they have tried other cables and not heard any difference. Oh sorry, that's because they have defective hearing.

Who mentioned defective hearing?!

And do point to any recent examples of those who are 'anti cables' comparing to their bog standard stuff.

 

[TrevC]

double post

 

[Vladimir]

How do you sex a handbag, anyway? Where can I learn to do it, and maybe even get a job doing it?

I'm afraid you are not taking this topic seriosly. Marketing is evil.

The 20th century's industrialization has left the world permanently overcrowded, polluted and stagnant by the turn of the 21st century. In 2022, with 40 million people in New York City alone, housing is dilapidated and overcrowded; homeless people fill the streets; 20 million are unemployed, the few "lucky" ones with jobs are barely scraping by, and food and working technology is scarce. Most of the population survives on rations produced by the Soylent Corporation, whose newest product is Soylent Green, a green wafer advertised to contain "high-energy plankton", more nutritious and palatable than its predecessors "Red" and "Yellow", but in short supply.

New York City Police Department detective Frank Thorn lives with his aged friend Solomon "Sol" Roth. Due to Roth's advanced age he remembers life before its current miserable state and routinely waxes nostalgic for his youth when the air was clean and the weather wasn't perpetually summer.

Roth takes Soylent's oceanographic reports to a like-minded group of researchers known as the Exchange, who agree that the oceans no longer produce the plankton from which Soylent Green is reputedly made, and infer that it must be made from human remains, as this is the only conceivable supply of protein that matches the known production. Unable to live with this discovery, Roth seeks assisted suicide at a government clinic called "Home".

Soylent Green

 

[TrevC]

I am sitting here drinking coffee, munching toast, listening to Anne-Sophie Mutter playing Mozart......and musing about cables ie. trying to get to the bottom of things.

Here is my conclusion:

There are two ways that a view is formed.

1. The Luddite Way.

This is where somebody says to you, "try this and it will make a difference"; or you go to a cable dem and are convinced you hear s difference.

Up to this point, you have put your system together by trusting your ears, so once again you rely on the same method.

Some cables are then brought home, tried in the time-honoured fashion of sticking them into the system and then forming a judgement on what is heard. The cables are either worth their money or they are returned.

All this is often done in the blissful ignorance of any need for verifiable measurements / expectation bias / placebo effect / double blind testing....none of which have been deemed necessary in any of life's more important decisions.

2. The Scientific Way.

You have a science / electronic degree in which you have learned a good understanding of how signal travels through wire. Wire is, after all, just about Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance.

Armed with this knowledge, you are quite certain that you have all the pertinent facts to know what is, and what is not possible. There is no need to test any further, and anything that you read to the contrary, simply has to be wrong, because you know better.....and in the off chance that you do hear a difference, it will be put down to placebo.

3. My Conclusion

I think both sides should learn from each other, but the positions are so entrenched that this seldom happens.

I think it very useful that the "pro cable" side are made aware of the pitfalls (expectation bias etc) and take a very cautious and pragmatic approach when looking at the purchase of cables...never spend more on a cable than would bring a bigger improvement elsewhere in the system.

The "objective science" side should not be so quick to dismiss the experience of such a large body of people ( including I suspect, at least half this forum), without at least doing a little experimentation.

I thought science was about challanging what we think we know and always being open minded enough to test something that so people have experienced.

Anyway, as you were. Get back to the fighting, with both sides doing too much talking and not enough listening (pun intended).

:cheers:

Cno

Entrenched? Not me. I have stated that speaker cables can sound different due to resistance and interconnects can sound different on a turntable because of capacitance variations loading the cartridge differently and changing the frequency response.

No need to test mains cables etc, it's blindingly obvious they can't affect performance, but for interconnects a simple null test at line level using typical input /output impedances will show even miniscule differences much more readily than any blind test.

Yet the manufacturers of boutique cables never do it. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Covenanter]

How can you possibly substantiate a claim like that?

Plenty here have repeatedly said that they have tried other cables and not heard any difference. Oh sorry, that's because they have defective hearing.

Who mentioned defective hearing?!

And do point to any recent examples of those who are 'anti cables' comparing to their bog standard stuff.

I will try the interconnect cables Marantz suppy this afternoon in comparison with the Chord somethings (I forget the name) I already have and will let you know.

Chris