Cable questions

[radiorog]

Bill, I do not need scientific evidence to tell me I am alive, it might just be a concept, but 5hit...I'm here..that'll do me. I do not need evidence to tell me when I put my hand in a fire or too hot water it will burn and be uncomfortable.

Given the money and the time I could prove to you my point on cables. Just because I may not be able to prove it now, doesn't make it not a fact.

 

[Cockroach]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

 

[spiny norman]

Ah Norman of course I'll go down the big scary bar with you to talk to your scary mates all gruff like. I'll help you explain the cable debate, hold your hand even. Whatever helps.

Again you are proving your inability or unwillingness to read. Perhaps you should try shouting at passers-by in thr street instead?

 

[drummerman]

100 posts!

I knew I was on to a winner here 🙂

 

[TrevC]

Cables aren't HiFi, cables are dumb bits of metal that connect HiFi. People who haven't done their reading or have bought into the myths come here to ask for advice on an open forum. Nice forum goers like myself or whoever you perceive as preaching will point out that spending money on cables is silly because cables dont have a sound.

So in summary, if you keep recommending nonsense I will continue to point out that you're a fool.

Absolute nonsense. I've had interconnects that I could tell again and again blindfolded which was which, it was so obvious. I would demonstrate for you had I not thrown one of them in the bin. Interconnects DO sound different. Fact.

They only sound different if they depart from normal construction to make them sound worse.

 

[Covenanter]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

Believe only what is true. Forget me. He is there to add an aura of respectability.

The product descriptions are complete nonsense. Ask anyone that has an electronics background.

This does seem to be the type of psuedo-science that plagues hifi. What you do is identify a real effect, say microphony, and then develop ways of reducing it (or say you do, it doesn't really matter which unless the ASA gets involved). Then you sell the product at a huge price.

The point with this stuff is that, whilst microphony is a real thing, as is RFI, skin effect in cables, and so on, it isn't actually having a discernable effect in hifi. (Microphony in valves is measurable of course. But you can vibrate transistors as much as you like, with the forces you would get in a domestic environment, without affecting their electrical performance.) You just pretend it does and because of human susceptibility some believe it.

Chris

 

[TrevC]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

Believe only what is true. Forget me. Dr. Gareth is there to add an aura of respectability.

The product descriptions are complete nonsense. Ask anyone that has an electronics background.

 

[Anderson]

QED make some expensive cables I'm sure.

But it's none of my concern. I'll buy to my pocket.

You'll be pleased to know the most expensive qed is £270, so its not near the top in ascending order of hatred!

Its peasantry really then. I'm sure it sounds like there's pillow over his speakers using el cheapo QED.

/s in case Thompson doesn't understand :-]

You are a totally irrelevant person......

Shall we draw pictures for you?

 

[Anderson]

Ah Norman of course I'll go down the big scary bar with you to talk to your scary mates all gruff like. I'll help you explain the cable debate, hold your hand even. Whatever helps.

Again you are proving your inability or unwillingness to read. Perhaps you should try shouting at passers-by in thr street instead?

Its a serious offer Norman, I would totes go to the pub with you. What you drinking big fella, cider? I'll get the first one in then we can talk to your hard mates.

 

[SteveR750]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

Believe only what is true. Forget me. He is there to add an aura of respectability.

The product descriptions are complete nonsense. Ask anyone that has an electronics background.

This does seem to be the type of psuedo-science that plagues hifi. What you do is identify a real effect, say microphony, and then develop ways of reducing it (or say you do, it doesn't really matter which unless the ASA gets involved). Then you sell the product at a huge price.

The point with this stuff is that, whilst microphony is a real thing, as is RFI, skin effect in cables, and so on, it isn't actually having a discernable effect in hifi. (Microphony in valves is measurable of course. But you can vibrate transistors as much as you like, with the forces you would get in a domestic environment, without affecting their electrical performance.) You just pretend it does and because of human susceptibility some believe it.

Chris

Agree. The only support I have ever spent any money on, or time on getting right was the one my turntable sat on when I owned it.

I know it's OT, but it's a similar concept, do electronics really "burn in"? I've never noticed it with anything I've bought, which is not to claim it doesn't happen, it's just not audible. Sorry, I'll get my coat...*blush*

 

[TrevC]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

Believe only what is true. Forget me. He is there to add an aura of respectability.

The product descriptions are complete nonsense. Ask anyone that has an electronics background.

This does seem to be the type of psuedo-science that plagues hifi. What you do is identify a real effect, say microphony, and then develop ways of reducing it (or say you do, it doesn't really matter which unless the ASA gets involved). Then you sell the product at a huge price.

The point with this stuff is that, whilst microphony is a real thing, as is RFI, skin effect in cables, and so on, it isn't actually having a discernable effect in hifi. (Microphony in valves is measurable of course. But you can vibrate transistors as much as you like, with the forces you would get in a domestic environment, without affecting their electrical performance.) You just pretend it does and because of human susceptibility some believe it.

Chris

Agree. The only support I have ever spent any money on, or time on getting right was the one my turntable sat on when I owned it.

I know it's OT, but it's a similar concept, do electronics really "burn in"? I've never noticed it with anything I've bought, which is not to claim it doesn't happen, it's just not audible. Sorry, I'll get my coat...*blush*

I think hifi dealers invented burn in so they didn't have to replace anything during the exchange period! It's nonsense, of course.

 

[Anderson]

Who's should I listen to? Trevor The Rude or Dr Gareth Humphreys-Jones < http://vertexaq.com/biography-dr-gareth-humphreys-jones/ >; both claim to be qualified.

Believe only what is true. Forget me. He is there to add an aura of respectability.

The product descriptions are complete nonsense. Ask anyone that has an electronics background.

This does seem to be the type of psuedo-science that plagues hifi. What you do is identify a real effect, say microphony, and then develop ways of reducing it (or say you do, it doesn't really matter which unless the ASA gets involved). Then you sell the product at a huge price.

The point with this stuff is that, whilst microphony is a real thing, as is RFI, skin effect in cables, and so on, it isn't actually having a discernable effect in hifi. (Microphony in valves is measurable of course. But you can vibrate transistors as much as you like, with the forces you would get in a domestic environment, without affecting their electrical performance.) You just pretend it does and because of human susceptibility some believe it.

Chris

Agree. The only support I have ever spent any money on, or time on getting right was the one my turntable sat on when I owned it.

I know it's OT, but it's a similar concept, do electronics really "burn in"? I've never noticed it with anything I've bought, which is not to claim it doesn't happen, it's just not audible. Sorry, I'll get my coat...*blush*

I think hifi dealers invented burn in so they didn't have to replace anything during the exchange period! It's nonsense, of course.

Ive seen published measurements of speaker driver testing, it was found that there was a small change in driver performance (inaudible) within the first few minutes of use. Nothing like the 50+ hours claimed.

For the likes of electronics and cables it is of course garbage.

What you having to drink son?

 

[SteveR750]

I think hifi dealers invented burn in so they didn't have to replace anything during the exchange period! It's nonsense, of course.

Maybe, and definitely for furniture makers to invent acoustically special coffee tables. Some of the prices being charged for them are eye watering. It made me chuckle that the manual that came with the Cyrus CD6SE advised that it needed 200 hours or so of burn in.

 

[Gazzip]

I think hifi dealers invented burn in so they didn't have to replace anything during the exchange period! It's nonsense, of course.

Maybe, and definitely for furniture makers to invent acoustically special coffee tables. Some of the prices being charged for them are eye watering.

Steve, I completely agree with your take on the "acoustic coffee table" for solid state electronics. However it is not just record decks that require vibration isolation. Take a valve amp, switch it on, turn it up with no music playing, then gently tap your fingers on the side of the amp casing. You will hear the importance of good isolation in that particular circumstance coming straight through your loudspeakers.

Although such furniture is a complete waste of money for SS components in terms of isolating them from vibration, it should not be forgotten that SS electronics with toroidal transformers inside them will vibrate themselves when switched on. In this instance it is more about preventing that particular component vibrating anything sensitive situated on the same shelf. A record deck or valve amp for example.

The problem is not with the isolation systems themselves. Their place in the hifi gamut is valid. The problem is those with only SS being sold them/ buying them.

 

[Gazzip]

Look at cables like very subtle tone controls.

Tone control is also how I approach cable selection.

My system, to my ears, has been suffering from a slight bloating to the mid-range. Adding the Tellurium speaker cable in to the mix has got rid of it so I am pleased as punch.

It's a miracle! Magic wire!

Not really. Just a cable not doing whatever a 79 strand OFC cable does so well. Perhaps on the bench my cables would measure badly. Resistive perhaps and degrading the signal in some way? All said and done however boy do they sound good to me which is what it's all about at the end of the day.

 

[SteveR750]

Steve, I completely agree with your take on the "acoustic coffee table" for solid state electronics. However it is not just record decks that require vibration isolation. Take a valve amp, switch it on, turn it up with no music playing, then gently tap your fingers on the side of the amp casing. You will hear the importance of good isolation in that particular circumstance coming straight through your loudspeakers.

Although such furniture is a complete waste of money for SS components in terms of isolating them from vibration, it should not be forgotten that SS electronics with toroidal transformers inside them will vibrate themselves when switched on. In this instance it is more about preventing that particular component vibrating anything sensitive situated on the same shelf. A record deck or valve amp for example.

The problem is not with the isolation systems themselves. Their place in the hifi gamut is valid. The problem is those with only SS being sold them/ buying them.

That's a fair point, but some of the prices just take the p***

 

[Native_bon]

Dnt you just love it! *aggressive*

 

[Native_bon]

Steve, I completely agree with your take on the "acoustic coffee table" for solid state electronics. However it is not just record decks that require vibration isolation. Take a valve amp, switch it on, turn it up with no music playing, then gently tap your fingers on the side of the amp casing. You will hear the importance of good isolation in that particular circumstance coming straight through your loudspeakers.

Although such furniture is a complete waste of money for SS components in terms of isolating them from vibration, it should not be forgotten that SS electronics with toroidal transformers inside them will vibrate themselves when switched on. In this instance it is more about preventing that particular component vibrating anything sensitive situated on the same shelf. A record deck or valve amp for example.

The problem is not with the isolation systems themselves. Their place in the hifi gamut is valid. The problem is those with only SS being sold them/ buying them.

That's a fair point, but some of the prices just take the p***

Hifi is one area were you almost dnt need to justify price to performance. Most of the products are just looking good cosmetic wise & nothing to do with SQ. What we buy today does not need the high ridiculous pricing we see or pay for. Its like you can almost take the p*** as much as you like as far as pricing is concerned.

A performance of a car is much more easy to pin dwn relating to price as suppose to sound. Also picture quality of a tv as suppose to sound. I think am in the wrong field of business *fool*

 

[davidvann]

one for the nay sayers.trevor c in his finest hour .http://www.coconut-audio.com/skeptics.html

please watch to the end*biggrin*

 

[Reijer]

Love to read all that bitching about eachother wether someone is right or wrong, if someone is a stupid cable tread believer or someone is trusting his/her ears and is honest about it.
I think cables make a difference and I have my reasons for it, and some coarse measurement.

 

[SteveR750]

It's a lot easier to quantify the differences between cars, but then you start arguing over looks, but then you consider brand image; the net chatter rooms are full of debate as to the relative price merits of the same car in a different dress and price tag (VAG are the masters at this). It's not just audio equipment, it's anything that we want as consumers, rather than need. I've no complaint against hyper expensive stuff, in fact I'm impressed with businesses that can pull it off, after all that's why they exist - to generate profit and employ people who spend money etc etc. It's impossible to reconcile different perceptions of value, when a subjective opinion is involved.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

QED make some expensive cables I'm sure.

But it's none of my concern. I'll buy to my pocket.

You'll be pleased to know the most expensive qed is £270, so its not near the top in ascending order of hatred!

Its peasantry really then. I'm sure it sounds like there's pillow over his speakers using el cheapo QED.

/s in case Thompson doesn't understand :-]

You are a totally irrelevant person......

Shall we draw pictures for you?

If they've left your crayons out....go ahead, knock yourself out.....

 

[TrevC]

one for the nay sayers.trevor c in his finest hour .http://www.coconut-audio.com/skeptics.html

please watch to the end*biggrin*

I'm not aggressive at all.

 

[radiorog]

one for the nay sayers.trevor c in his finest hour .http://www.coconut-audio.com/skeptics.html

please watch to the end*biggrin*

I'm not aggressive at all.

That video is awesome. I do imagine that might be what is going on here. I respect Trev's answers to my queries so far, and it seems that trev is happy to acknowledge that my five or six sets of interconnects did indeed sound different, but due to some kind of fault. But the fact is, they sounded different and trev has said this is possible.

I am however currently on the other side of the fence when it comes to burn in time. I am pretty sure I have witnessed large changes (well very small changes, but I seem to be able to make out these differences, and the results can turn a not so good sounding piece of equipment into a sublime sounding piece) in pieces of stereo equipment.

People can hear varying frequency ranges, as well as many other things undiscovered. Maybe some people can hear timing more clearly... is:if you fire off 20 notes in very quick succession, say in a second, maybe one person can hear all 20 but another can only hear ten?? There are surely hundreds of ways we all her things slightly different, and maybe those who can't hear as much, say that pieces of equipment all sound the same, simply because they cannot hear the alternative.And maybe they just believe the science that is at hand at the time. We as humans surely know less than 1% of all things scientific.. That is clearlyba number plucked out of the ether, but I'm sure you can agree it could be more, or it could be a lot less! The earth is flat, no its round. The universe was started with a big bang....that theory is on the verge of being totally disproven. We are but cavemen.

 

[Vladimir]

That video is awesome.

If you only knew who Patrick is. A true legend.