Alec
Well-known member
whining about the preserve of HDD et al, DM?
No, quite.
It has always happened, will continue to happen, and is a good thing.
So you're going to need to go ahead and get over it.
No, quite.
It has always happened, will continue to happen, and is a good thing.
So you're going to need to go ahead and get over it.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Alec
Well-known member
steve_1979
Well-known member
steve_1979
Well-known member
Native_bon
Well-known member
Yes some cables do sound different, but its also system dependent. Its not as simple as that. The only problem is the pricing of some of the cables are just. so extravagant. Also it amazes me that so many people use eye glasses to eye properly, cause some can see more than others, yet some do not believe the same can happen with their hearing.radiorog said:
Having said that, I would not waste large amounts of money trying to make my system sound better with cables. In some cases you may not even hear any change in sound quality or timing, in most cases may sound different but not better. In some cases may sound even worse.
Its a money making fire house at best.
radiorog said:
I suppose your (reasonable) gist is that if we can hear a difference, it is there even if we can't justify it with current levels of electrical knowledge. I'm not an EE but I do understand statistical theory. If there is a genuine difference it can be empirically tested beyond reasonable doubt by unbiased testing. it would be in the interest of those who produce expensive cables to invest in such tests as a positive result would justify the high price of their products. As this hasn't conclusively taken place I remain a sceptic.
I already have. Well £1.49 interconnects anyway. And £1.10 per mono metre speaker cable.radiorog said:
Not that I'm in the cables sound the same club. I'm in the club where I suggest starting with good but inexpensive cables and then trying whatever you fancy and making your own mind up.
And there was also this "test" from 6 years ago: http://www.audio-forums.com/threads/the-cable-test-listen-and-decide.105155/
The big reveal is on page 3. It's entertaining reading.
Gazzip
Well-known member
It has been said on here many, many times but.....
Hearing is not governed by simple physics or biology, there is also a perceptual input by the brain which is personal to each and every one of us. On top of the perceptual element there is a neural conversion. a kind of analogue to digital conversion that takes place in our ears which allows our brains to perceive a given sound. The brains perception of sound is also affected by other sensory perceptions vision, taste etc. All of this before mood (non-sensory factors) have been applied to the overall perceptive mix.
If I buy a pretty cable and it sounds better to me because the combination of factors listed above leads me to perceive it is better then who really gives a s**t what accepted and proven science says? This is the same as any religious belief, red pill vs blue pill in Matrix speak. Myself I would rather believe in cable technology and enhance my personal listening experience than not believe and be stuck with a narrowed gamut. Others will be equally content if their hifi setup to be scientifically biased and based upon cold, hard facts. The best on paper for the lowest financial outlay. There is no wrong only personal preference and a personal belief system.
I think that the arguments on here really begin when cable manufacturers start to make up science, or use it incorrectly to in some way scientifically validate their products. This is their mistake IMHO as there is nothing gets a scientist/engineer more riled stuff made up to suit a non-scientific point of view. However the scientists defence is to disparage the whole concept in reaction. This brings out a wholey opposite argument from the "believer". As a scientist try asking a religious person for proof that God exists and see what happens. The perfect dichotomic reaction ensues. There will never be a winner in the religion vs scienctific evidence discussion/argument and the same applies to the cable discussion/argument. The scientist can "prove" there is no benefit but the believer still "believes" that there is.
Diatribe over. I await the abuse.
Hearing is not governed by simple physics or biology, there is also a perceptual input by the brain which is personal to each and every one of us. On top of the perceptual element there is a neural conversion. a kind of analogue to digital conversion that takes place in our ears which allows our brains to perceive a given sound. The brains perception of sound is also affected by other sensory perceptions vision, taste etc. All of this before mood (non-sensory factors) have been applied to the overall perceptive mix.
If I buy a pretty cable and it sounds better to me because the combination of factors listed above leads me to perceive it is better then who really gives a s**t what accepted and proven science says? This is the same as any religious belief, red pill vs blue pill in Matrix speak. Myself I would rather believe in cable technology and enhance my personal listening experience than not believe and be stuck with a narrowed gamut. Others will be equally content if their hifi setup to be scientifically biased and based upon cold, hard facts. The best on paper for the lowest financial outlay. There is no wrong only personal preference and a personal belief system.
I think that the arguments on here really begin when cable manufacturers start to make up science, or use it incorrectly to in some way scientifically validate their products. This is their mistake IMHO as there is nothing gets a scientist/engineer more riled stuff made up to suit a non-scientific point of view. However the scientists defence is to disparage the whole concept in reaction. This brings out a wholey opposite argument from the "believer". As a scientist try asking a religious person for proof that God exists and see what happens. The perfect dichotomic reaction ensues. There will never be a winner in the religion vs scienctific evidence discussion/argument and the same applies to the cable discussion/argument. The scientist can "prove" there is no benefit but the believer still "believes" that there is.
Diatribe over. I await the abuse.
TrevC
Well-known member
Gazzip said:
that in itself is usually the crux of the argument. If you actually say that, nobody will care. It's when people refuse to believe that those things can make can make a difference that the arguments start.
You've basically just said that even a placebo can work, and it does. However, there are some people, that for whatever reason, refuse to believe that placebos and such things can exist in the hifi realm, and again, that's such amazing hubris I don't even know where to begin.
Physics and science can tell us there will be no difference between cable a and cable b, however, people will and do hear a difference. If we can prove through scientific methods that there is no difference between the cable, then yes, it's more than likely something else, such as an expectation bias, placebo effect, air pressure on the ear drums or whatever. However, when you suggest this to some people they react as if you've just come in their house and taken a dump on their living room carpet.
And it also works the other way. If somebody is going to say that there are differences between cables et al, unless they have done all they can to rule out these other elements of which you talk about, how on earth can you make that statement? I guess I just find it odd that some people really do seem to believe everything they see and hear, not sure how they process optical and audio illusions, unless they just deny they exist.
C'mon guys, especially TrevC
Even if you don't believe in cables making any difference, surely you want something looking half decent hanging out of your rack, no?
I mean, do you ever spend more than £5.00 on a primark shirt perhaps if you go to a dinner party?
Perhaps not
I can easily blow £50 on a night out with the boys, more on occasions. Admittedly these are a little rarer these days. So spending a hundred quid on a decent set of leads which are potentially used for years and which won't leave that nagging feeling ... 'what if' ... will make you feel better, no?
Perhaps you are just very tight?
I am preparing the next thread, Mains cables.
Even if you don't believe in cables making any difference, surely you want something looking half decent hanging out of your rack, no?
I mean, do you ever spend more than £5.00 on a primark shirt perhaps if you go to a dinner party?
Perhaps not
I can easily blow £50 on a night out with the boys, more on occasions. Admittedly these are a little rarer these days. So spending a hundred quid on a decent set of leads which are potentially used for years and which won't leave that nagging feeling ... 'what if' ... will make you feel better, no?
Perhaps you are just very tight?
I am preparing the next thread, Mains cables.
Native_bon
Well-known member
Man did not put man or woman, in a rocket into space, in hope that we do not fully understand how it works, but it works. If cable manufacturers can not show prove then its flawed. How much gullible can people be. Anyway without gullible people manufacturers will never flourish.
TrevC
Well-known member
drummerman said:C'mon guys, especially TrevC
Even if you don't believe in cables making any difference, surely you want something looking half decent hanging out of your rack, no?
I mean, do you ever spend more than £5.00 on a primark shirt perhaps if you go to a dinner party?
Perhaps not
I can easily blow £50 on a night out with the boys, more on occasions. Admittedly these are a little rarer these days. So spending a hundred quid on a decent set of leads which are potentially used for years and which won't leave that nagging feeling ... 'what if' ... will make you feel better, no?
Perhaps you are just very tight?
I am preparing the next thread, Mains cables.
I can't see the cables from the front, and I don't buy them because I'm not gullible. :O)
Gazzip
Well-known member
Vladimir said:
No problem whatsoever with that pill.
You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realise? Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy "knowing" better than I do all of of you sciencey guys and gals. Steak again for me tonight. Enjoy your porridge.
Gazzip said:
doesn't really make sense given the sciencey guys and gals are agreeing with you. As stated before, it's generally those that refuse to believe such things can make such a difference, or claim that because they heard it, it's must be "true" or a "fact".
To a certain degree, I'm not really sure why more die hard cable lovers haven't cottoned on to this, as there isn't really much comeback as the argument would go something like this:
"what cables should I buy?"
"don't change, it doesn't make any difference, here's the links to prove it"
"Yeh, I know it doesn't make any real difference, but my mind is such that if I pay x amount then it will fool it in to making a difference which I am happy with and that's ok with me."
"oh, ok then"
But generally what happens, and this can be swapped 180 if needs be
"what cables should I buy"
"don't change, it doesn't make any difference, here's the links to prove it"
"yeh well, what does science know, what do you know, you must be deaf or system isn't expensive enough, how dare you say I'm imagining it"
"right, you gullible fool, here's some more science"
"lalalala I'm not listening, you're just spoiling my hobby now"
"what hobby, it's a bunch of electronics"
etc etc, ad infinitum.
TrevC
Well-known member
Gazzip said:
Weirdly I ate porridge this morning. Curry for me tonight. :O)
Never forget, science is knowledge.
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