Budget repalcement amp for classical - advice please

[CnoEvil]

IMO. Telling people they are wrong or mistaken, for liking what what they like, is a totally fruitless excercise (and winds them up no end).

If Cse has a problem, then he has a problem. I am more interested in helping him solve it, than going into what other people are happy with....as they don't have a problem.

Cse, may I be so bold as to suggest that you start a new thread on this, to see what ideas come forward.....I have a strong suspicion that you may have to start over again, if you are to truly get what you are looking for.

Cno

 

[the record spot]

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it.

I'm not sure if you know any professional classical musicians. They would, probably as one, shun either your views or you on the back of this alone. Elitist, mind-empyting snobbery.

 

[Phileas]

It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it.

:rofl:

 

[matthewpiano]

I have never said that every recording is acceptable. You appear to view those of us who listen to classical music as belonging to some sort of exclusive club and that being able to list certain experiences makes one more worthy.

Can you actually analyse any classical recordings that you own that you don't enjoy? If you can't I'm not sure that you are able to empathise with the problem.

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong. Hardly anybody in percentage terms, knows anything about classical music or spends any extended amount of time listening to it.

You really aren't very nice are you? I'm probably more qualified and experienced to talk about these issues than you are, but I'm not as arrogant so I won't be pushing it down your throat.

All I will say is that attitudes such as those displayed in your posts nicely encapsulate all that is wrong with a small minority of the classical fraternity. Snobbery has nothing to do with musical communication and it puts people off who might be trying to explore this great canon of music for the first time.

Have you ever thought that maybe you might have made a complete hash of assembling your own system?

 

[chebby]

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong.

At last! Some refreshing honesty from the classical music crowd for once. (It can't be that easy to express your superiority in plain words, in public any more.)

Can't say I entirely agree, but I am glad one of you came clean about what you really think

 

[matthewpiano]

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it.

I'm not sure if you know any professional classical musicians. They would, probably as one, shun either your views or you on the back of this alone. Elitist, mind-empyting snobbery.

Well said. Pretty much every professional classical musician I have met or worked with would shun those views.

 

[CnoEvil]

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong.

At last! Some refreshing honesty from the classical music crowd for once. (It can't be that easy to express your superiority in plain words, in public any more.)

Can't say I entirely agree, but I am glad one of you came clean about what you really think

I certainly don't have this view, and it probably has a lot to do with putting people off......I grew up surrounded by classical music, as it was all that was played at home. I never really gave it much thought, and at times worry that when I admit to liking it, assumptions will be made as to the sort of person I am.

 

[chebby]

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong.

At last! Some refreshing honesty from the classical music crowd for once. (It can't be that easy to express your superiority in plain words, in public any more.)

Can't say I entirely agree, but I am glad one of you came clean about what you really think

I certainly don't have this view, and it probably has a lot to do with putting people off......I grew up surrounded by classical music, as it was all that was played at home. I never really gave it much thought, and at times worry that when I admit to liking it, assumptions will be made as to the sort of person I am.

When a student, I was once asked - in a now defunct classical record shop in Southsea - not to wear my 'combat jacket' if I ever visited again.

Of course this was after I had bought my LPs and they'd taken my cash!

At school we once had a trip to see a performance by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. After our arrival at the venue we had to get back in our minibus and wait. The teachers had been informed that we were to go in last of all, after the rest of the audience, and also - after the end of the concert - we were to wait until after everyone else had left before we were allowed to move. All of our parents had paid for the tickets - and we had dressed smartly - but because we were teenagers I guess it was assumed we might upset their normal crowd. We were also not to get any refreshments during intervals and the teachers were told to accompany anyone who had to visit the toilets!

When we eventually got seated we were terrified of everyone nearby glaring at us. On reflection now I suppose they were terrified that we were going to run amock and rip up seats (or whatever else the good concert-goers of Bournemouth imagined teenagers would do).

We were made to feel like we were on day-release from a prison! That was my first experience of going to a classical music performance. The music was fantastic. The sociology lesson was illuminating.

 

[Covenanter]

I have never said that every recording is acceptable. You appear to view those of us who listen to classical music as belonging to some sort of exclusive club and that being able to list certain experiences makes one more worthy.

Can you actually analyse any classical recordings that you own that you don't enjoy? If you can't I'm not sure that you are able to empathise with the problem.

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong. Hardly anybody in percentage terms, knows anything about classical music or spends any extended amount of time listening to it.

That's just nonsense! Classical music isn't "more worthy" than any other type of music it's just different.

You may not care but you do come over as being very arrogant!

Chris

 

[GCE]

Interesting thread!

- I had Quad 306+34 * * * * * (for 20 yrs silk sound, but you must add some tool for headphone),

- Yam AS500 * * ( only for a week, same impressions like you)

- Yam700 * * * * ( better, smooter than 500)

- and now Marantz 6004 * * * * * (liquid sound);

here some interesting links for you, sorry but they are in french...

:

http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/index.php

Perhaps we need to ask a different question of those asking for advice - do you want realism that will also highlight poor recordings or do want something that will be less revealing & often less exciting with decent stuff?

Interesting point: I was hearing to a "1 m long shelf of vinil LP" ( a present from my brother) and, after a recording SQ based selection, now the shelf occupation is 50 cm...

- http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/affichage-amplis-DENON__PMA_710_-_AE.html

- http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/affichage-amplis-MARANTZ_-_PM_6004.html

.....This was an Interesting thread....!

 

[cse]

I think the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra were right to treat Chebby and and his young contemporaries with caution. At a concert you need silence and concentration for the musicians and audience alike.

'Man hands on misery to man, it deepens like a coastal shelf, get out as early as you can, and don't have any kids yourself'. For this reason, popcorn and cola are not allowed into the auditorium.

Also, I'm surprised that you find it startling that someone might think classical music is elitist and a minority affair. Surely, it is no different in that way to having an interst in poetry,drama,philosophy, world music or Colchester United - all of which fall into the minority. Personally, I didn't have any childhood experiences or it, nor do I know any musicians. I came to it around the mid-twenties through a boredom with contemporary music and life in general. It oftered a much greater intellectual challenge and that was what I was looking for. Once bitten, forever smitten, unlike other genres. It's the same with writers, once you explore your interests and start to read books with ideas rather than just stories you find it hard to take the view that all art is equal.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra were right to treat Chebby and and his young contemporaries with caution. At a concert you need silence and concentration for the musicians and audience alike. For this reason, popcorn and cola are not allowed into the auditorium.

Also, I'm surprised that you find it startling that someone might think classical music is elitist and a minority affair. Surely, it is no different in that way to having an interst in poetry,drama,philosophy, world music or Colchester United. Personally, I didn't have any childhood experiences or it, nor do I know any musicians. I came to it around the mid-twenties through a boredom with contemporary music and life in general. It oftered a much greater intellectual challenge and that was what I was looking for. Once bitten, forever smitten, unlike other genres. It's the same with writers, once you explore your interests and start to read books with ideas rather than just stories you find it hard to take the view that all art is equal.

I find myself completely agreeing with you about how classical music should sound (in particular violins), and even the way it can be perceived as more complex and often hits you on a more emotional level; but not that it should only be the domain of a few, and kept elite.

Nigel Kennedy wanted to explode this perception and so took a very no-nonsense approach, which expressed itself in the way he looked......and he wasn't too shabby on the violin.

My offer of help is there if you want it, but I could be the only one if you alienate everyone else.

 

[Covenanter]

To return to the question in the OP:

I have Marantz PM6400, CD6400 and Kef Q500s. This reproduces all types of classical music perfectly satisfactorily. The whole set up (with headphones) cost less then £2000 and whilst I'm sure I could get improved performance if I spent more I don't think I need to. I would recommend listening to this combination as I chose it sepcifically for classical music.

Chris

 

[Baldrick1]

To return to the question in the OP:

I have Marantz PM6400, CD6400 and Kef Q500s. This reproduces all types of classical music perfectly satisfactorily. The whole set up (with headphones) cost less then £2000 and whilst I'm sure I could get improved performance if I spent more I don't think I need to. I would recommend listening to this combination as I chose it sepcifically for classical music.

Chris

Interestng thread indeed...but have to agree with Chris, in principle, as my rig is different (see sig line below) and the reprodcution of classical music on this is stunning (as is jazz)...even if I say so myself. Could pay much more but I am not sure that I would reap proportional benefits given my personal arrangements location-wise.

Regards

Balders

 

[GCE]

To return to the question in the OP:

I have Marantz PM6400, CD6400 and Kef Q500s. This reproduces all types of classical music perfectly satisfactorily. The whole set up (with headphones) cost less then £2000 and whilst I'm sure I could get improved performance if I spent more I don't think I need to. I would recommend listening to this combination as I chose it sepcifically for classical music.

Chris

Can you tell why this system is ok for classical and his sound characteristics? Thanks.

 

[Covenanter]

To return to the question in the OP:

I have Marantz PM6400, CD6400 and Kef Q500s. This reproduces all types of classical music perfectly satisfactorily. The whole set up (with headphones) cost less then £2000 and whilst I'm sure I could get improved performance if I spent more I don't think I need to. I would recommend listening to this combination as I chose it sepcifically for classical music.

Chris

Can you tell why this system is ok for classical and his sound characteristics? Thanks.

If you want a technical explanation I'm afraid I don't have one. I suspect that at any price point the key factor in a system are the speakers. I chose the electronics pretty quickly starting from reviews and forums to get a short list and then auditioned pretty quickly. I then spent a long time listening to speakers. I used a very wide range of music (including some "popular" music). To my ears the Kefs were the only ones that reproduced classical music "properly".

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

We were made to feel like we were on day-release from a prison! That was my first experience of going to a classical music performance. The music was fantastic. The sociology lesson was illuminating.

Not good.....I suppose in those days, we were to be seen, but not heard.

 

[francophile]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to contrbute to this thead - for your generosity in sharing your knowledge and experience; I'm a bit less ignorant now than I was several days ago.

There's been a bit of sidetracking, I suppose: interesting, but the most useful for me as the OP have been those contributions which were directed at my particular need and then offered specific practical ideas and suggestions; I'm surprised that no-one actually said "If that's what you want you'll have to pay a lot more". The variables are hard to balance : quality of recordings, different system variations, different tastes; and reading reviews from overseas sites is quite informative too, & via Google Translate I have compared opinions from Germany, Australia, Norway, France (gse) etc. and sometimes found significant differences in opinion.

I came to the conclusion that an older amp, secondhand (and so likely to be at budget price but not originally 'budget' ), is probably the answer for me, so I'm busy scouring the usual sites for an Arcam, hoping compatibilty (with my Dynaudios) won't be an issue.

 

[matthewpiano]

I hope things turn out well for you francophile. I know from painful experience how frustrating it can be when it is hard to sit down and enjoy your music. The A85 and A32 are both worth exploring IMO and if you buy carefully you should be able to sell on with minimal loss should you find your purchase isn't to your liking. That really is one of the big advantages of quality used gear, particularly when you are still experimenting.

I'm currently listening to the Beaux Arts Trio recording of the Brahms G Minor Piano Quartet. Out of interest I decided to pull out an old pair of KEF C30 speakers and hook them up to my Denon. They are a 1980s sealed box design with the tall, wide and shallow cabinets that were popular at the time and I have to say they sound quite remarkable. Very natural. Something like this is always worth a try at some point if you wish to experiment with different concepts at the more affordable end of the second hand market.

Do let us know how you get on!

 

[busb]

Actually, I don't completely disagree with you. If someone held a gun to my head, demanding to know if I was an objectivist or subjectivist, I'd answer the latter (well, most of the time)! For instance, I have grave doubts regarding the effectiveness of ABX testing done over any period less than a week due to the fact that short-term memory is too unreliable & the lack of control over false negatives skewing the results.

My new amp has hilighted one aspect of presentation relavent to this thread that might be considered to contradict my statement regarding asking people what sort of music they listened to as being absurd. The Primare takes no prisoners regarding recording quality. This means about 70% of my music sounds stunning - fabulous detail, imaging & depth, extremely well-controlled bass, natural mids & treble like I never heard before. The other 30% now sounds worse: distorted, compressed or far too bright. It's a matter of choice whether one is willing to tolerate a not insignificant part of one's collection sounding sub-optimal but good recordings sounding breathtaking or smoothing out the warts but rounds the edges off the good.

Perhaps we need to ask a different question of those asking for advice - do you want realism that will also highlight poor recordings or do want something that will be less revealing & often less exciting with decent stuff?

You my friend, are suffering from cognitive dissonance. :shifty:

The fact you originally chose Celestion SL6s, tells me that you have a side that listens with your heart, rather than your head.....they are lovely speakers, but imo, not exactly neutral.

I think the right kit hides little, but doesn't make bad recordings worse......if you don't believe me, try and get a listen to the AMS35i, which imo loses nothing in detail, but is always musical. My view, which I have been stating a lot recently, is that it's due to the removal of switching distortion.

Cognative Dissonace - wot me?! I hope the irony is not lost on you! I will pull out my SL6s soon - I'd expect them to sound better than they did before & they also respond well to great amplification. As for the right kit. that depends on one's priority. I'm getting the best out of most of my music & remain unconvinced that poor recordings will always sound better with better equipment. My system now sounds very dynamic & very detailed so it's no surprise that some failings in the recording will be unmasked, therefore more noticeable. What priority people give to detail v tailoring is a personal choice.

 

[antskip]

I am very happy with my KEF LS50's for classical -they wouldn't have your bass though. I was interested in your choice of Marantz amp and source. My short list began with the Music Hall 15.2's, but they are not easy to get hold of so now looking at NAD 326BEE and Cambridge Azure 351A, with accompanying CD players...many reviewers suggested the Yamahas and Onkyo's are too bright.

a few days later..now going for the Rega Brio-R and the rega cd player - very detailed and honest-hopefully they are a good match for the so detailed and honest kef ls50's..

 

[francophile]

Thanks again, mattthewpiano.

You're absolutely right about the 'frustration' (now veering towards desperation!); it is easy to take for granted the easy access we all of us have to so much wonderful & varied music, but being without it will enhance the joy of getting it back again.

Your comment about 'quality used gear' is very good advice. I just missed out on a couple of A85s on ebay (outbid - not quite canny enough), so I'll have to be patient - of course I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath.

Regards

 

[CnoEvil]

Cognative Dissonace - wot me?! I hope the irony is not lost on you!

:shifty: :silenced:

I will pull out my SL6s soon - I'd expect them to sound better than they did before & they also respond well to great amplification.

Please let me know how this goes.......if any amp will make them shine and give them the kick up the backside, yours will.

......& remain unconvinced that poor recordings will always sound better with better equipment.

I am certainly not saying this. I am saying that by removing switching distortion from the equation, you are not making the bad recording sound worse.

 

[francophile]

As promised ....

I bought a 2nd hand Arcam A85 about 10 days ago and am very happy with it; it's in excellent condition and has a phono stage fitted so I can also listen to my old LPs and, to my ears at least, it makes a good partner to my Dynaudios.

Prior to that I tried a Yamaha AS700 which certainly suited me better than the AS500, but I still experienced a similar 'brightness' in some recordings, especially the (Mosaïques Quartet) original instruments recordings of Haydn and to a lesser extent in the Takacs' Beethoven recordings I mentioned earlier. I had begun to doubt my own hearing apparatus and asked madame (she's French) to listen & she said it sounded 'acide'.

I can't see myself changing my set-up for a long time now, though I am wondering whether a P85 might be a worthwhile addition.....

Thanks again to all who contributed. :cheers:

 

[tsaoandy]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to contrbute to this thead - for your generosity in sharing your knowledge and experience; I'm a bit less ignorant now than I was several days ago.

There's been a bit of sidetracking, I suppose: interesting, but the most useful for me as the OP have been those contributions which were directed at my particular need and then offered specific practical ideas and suggestions; I'm surprised that no-one actually said "If that's what you want you'll have to pay a lot more". The variables are hard to balance : quality of recordings, different system variations, different tastes; and reading reviews from overseas sites is quite informative too, & via Google Translate I have compared opinions from Germany, Australia, Norway, France (gse) etc. and sometimes found significant differences in opinion.

I came to the conclusion that an older amp, secondhand (and so likely to be at budget price but not originally 'budget' ), is probably the answer for me, so I'm busy scouring the usual sites for an Arcam, hoping compatibilty (with my Dynaudios) won't be an issue.

Hi sorry it’s probably a bad timing to contribute to your post. I really rate Dynaudio but I don’t know all the series I’m afraid, I wouldn’t think it’s the tweeter but a mismatch with the amp. I currently have a pair of Spendor which is very laid back or soft sounding speakers. I drove them with Plinius amp before, I was very happy with the detail and soundstage but I had to try all sorts of things like trying different cables, DAC, etc. And because I am a classical trained violinist, i was obsessed with getting the violin sound right. And then I tried Moon and then now i
am using Naim and all of a sudden I don’t have treble problem anymore. I know Arcam has been recommended here, I auditioned Dynaudio with Naim they are a good match as well. With violin it’s hit and miss sometimes. I think it’s to do with the sound engineer of the recording, it’s quite challenging because they don’t always get to record at the same place and microphone placement really changes the sound. I find a lot duetch gramophone the violin is probably done with close mic and which makes the solo violin quite close up, with certain system it can be a bit too much. But Hilary Hahn when she was with DG particularly her Paganini and Sibelius were done beautifully. I know the usual Decca are very famous for their classical recordings. I think Sony has done really good recording at the moment Ray Chen is with Sony. And I really like French label called Harmonia Mundi all the recordings are done super well. Isabelle Faust is my favourite, she’s done the entire Beethoven sonata, and the piano trio are great too. Hope you find the sound you want.