Budget repalcement amp for classical - advice please

[francophile]

Hi all,

I recently bought this budget system : Marantz CD6004, Yamaha AS500 amp, Dynaudio DM 2/6 speakers, (plus Sennheiser HD650 headphones), cables are QED Flat 79 taken from my old system.

I listen exclusively to classical music, and particularly chamber music - string quartets, solo piano, etc and quite a lot of orchestral music. My room is about 9 ft x 15ft and quite full of books, office furniture, cutained window, carpeted floor, armchair.

Basically the sound I am getting is too bright, particularly at the treble end - violins and piano sound shrill - and uncomforable to listen to; my guess is the amp needs to be replaced with something much warmer in sound. I am restricted to budget level or maybe a little above and would buy secondhand; initial investigations have suggested maybe an Arcam or Nad amp, Yamaha AS700, or a secondhand Quad. I have an old Arcam Alpha 3 and am wondering whether this would, as a stop-gap, drive my speakers.

I live in rural France, where auditioning in a real problem, so any advice, recommendations (apart that is from "move house"!) will be very wecome.

 

[francophile]

Er....that should be 'replacement'.

Terrible speller, this keyboard.

 

[BigH]

Try the Arcam 3 first see what difference that makes.

Having read some reviews of the Dyns it could be the amp as they do say the treble is not harsh, also say they need a powerful amp to drive them.

 

[matthewpiano]

I would be inclined to look in the Arcam direction, possibly at an end-of-line deal on the A18, although do be sure to listen first as you might find it a little plodding sounding after the Yamaha. Alternatively you might want to explore second hand A65+ or an Alpha 8 or 9, thought be careful to check input selector switches on Alpha models as these are prone to failure.

A NAD C326BEE might make a good buy and has a little more pep than the A18. Certainly it won't give you the brightness of the Yamaha and it should drive the Dyns well. The Marantz PM6004 would also be worth a listen.

 

[Covenanter]

I have the CD6004 with the PM6004 and that is great for classical. You'd need to hear it with your speakers.

Chris

 

[BigH]

On a budget I would be inclined to go for a used one like the NAD mentioned above or even better if you can find them: Arcam Alpha 9, Arcam Alpha 10, NAD C370.

The 6004 amp. is maybe a bit lightweight for your speakers.

 

[francophile]

Thank you all for your quick and helpful responses.

When researching a suitable system I decided on the Yamaha instead of the Marantz only at the last minute, partly influenced by some comments on the Amazon site. I think Chris that you must also have made a good choice of speakers. Tricky business getting it right, isn't it, especially as there's such a range of choice, plus the crucial factor of personal taste/preference - and living in the dead centre of nowhere virtually excludes me from auditioning.

You seem to be in agreement, BigH and Matthewpiano, on Arcam and Nad amps, so I shall certainly follow up your suggestions, probably in favour of the Arcams. Matthewpiano's posts beforehand have been an influence on my original choice of a system, so thanks for that, too.

As yet no-one seems to have experience of the Yamaha AS700; my interest in it comes partly from a review on Amazon by a classical music listener, who wrote of it as 'warm' and 'mellifluous' etc., and though What HiFi's reviewer was not over-impressed by it, reviews elsewhere have been favourable.

Anyway, I'll hook up the Arcam 3 and compare - thanks again, BigH - before sending back the AS500.

I will be very happy to receive further suggestions, whether of other alternatives or confirming those already posted.

 

[MeanandGreen]

You can't go wrong with NAD for budget amps IMO. Always a refined and solid sound from NAD kit.

Second hand I'd look at the C340, C350, C352, C370 and C326BEE. You can get the C326BEE new as well.

I own the C350 and C326BEE they are never harsh and produce a BIG sound.

 

[MeanandGreen]

You can't go wrong with NAD for budget amps IMO. Always a refined and solid sound from NAD kit.

Second hand I'd look at the C340, C350, C352, C370 and C326BEE. You can get the C326BEE new as well.

I own the C350 and C326BEE they are never harsh and produce a BIG sound.

 

[MeanandGreen]

<p><p><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">You can't go wrong with NAD for budget amps IMO. Always a refined and solid sound from NAD kit. </span></p><p><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Second hand I'd look at the C340, C350, C352, C370 and C326BEE. You can get the C326BEE new as well.</span></p><p>I own the C350 and C326BEE they are never harsh and produce a BIG sound.</p></p>

Seriously what is it with these forums at times? So unreliable.

 

[BigH]

This is the worse site, so many double posts, blank post etc. And so slow to.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Ditto, NAD

 

[CnoEvil]

Arcam, Rega and Nad - would also be my choice.

 

[francophile]

Thanks for the further suggestions.

I sent back the Yamaha and hooked up the Arcam 3, an old amp but well-recommended in its time; I'm not too familiar with hi-fi jargon but after the AS500 it sounded rather veiled and withdrawn, but fairly stable in quality across the registers, with the treble noticeably easier on the ears.

The Yahama is probably a very good amp for other kinds of music than the stuff I like, it had good definition in the middle and lower registers and also great clarity compared with the Arcam; listening to orchestral music on the Yamaha, and knowing fairly well the standard placings of the instruments, I didn't find it easy to 'place' them (if that makes sense) in the Yamaha's sound space (is that what 'soundstage' is?). Listening to string quartet CD's I found the Yamaha's sound very immediate and close, with very pleasing distinction between the instruments, however the Arcam handled the high notes with greater equanimity and I felt it was the more forgiving of the two amps, though I suppose this could also mean 'less discriminating'

I read an excellent review of the Nad C350 which praised this amp's ability to reproduce accurately the different timbres of orchestral instruments, not something (it seems) that all, or even many, amps can do. I wondered whether the C370 and Arcam A18 can - I have seen these amps for sale new & secondhand recently, and these 3 amps are the ones I have focussed down to.

 

[Anonymous]

Instead of the Arcam 3 look out for an Arcam Alpha 9; so much more better and better than the NAD C350 as well as the NAD C320BEE and C352 amps would work very well indeed as well as would a Rega Brio 3

As you've said the Yamaha AS500 is fairly bright and clinical. The Marantz PM6004 is a great amp and would work well with your Dynaudios but it'll not get the absolute best out of them but for normal listening levels and even a bit louder it'll do very well indeed.

The NAD C326BEE is a very good amp also and can still be bought new so maybe worth having a demo before you buy but you may find it can be a little too bass heavy at times...

 

[francophile]

therecruiter,

thanks for your suggestions - the Arcam 3 is an old amp which I had already, I connected it up as a stop-gap until I find a suitable replacement; my apologies if I didn't make that clear.

Tha Alpha 9 doesn't seem too hard to find secondhand (unlike the A65, which can't be found for love nor money); in what ways do you think it it better than the Nad C350? For the kind of music I listen to strong bass is not a primary requirement, warmth and clarity are more important.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Second hand Quad is well worth a look, based on my experience with the Elite Stereo Power amp.

The 77 Integrated could be a good option.

Other than that, I can recommend the older Sony ES integrated amps, more than enough power, plenty of inputs and very smooth presentation without being boring (in a nutshell). They often have decent Phono stages and headphone outputs too.

Just noticed that you have headphones, may be a problem with the Quad gear.

 

[cse]

This is going to be very hard to resolve, I'm afraid. I listen exclusively to classical as well and by that I mean listen (Radio 3, Gramophone magazine). Not just the occassional Classic FM inspired soundtrack. Firstly, I love string quartets, but they are the 'bain of my life' regarding sound quality. Almost all HIFI I have owned makes them sound overly shrill. This is of course in comparison to a live performace, but also compared to the radio or TV. I owned a £1500 Densen that made me get rid of string quartet CD's because they sounded so awful. Basically, you will have to sacrifice detail to obtain warmth. Most people, I find, who dispense advice are not true classical afficianados and can't tell the difference between chamber, instrumental or orchestral, let alone baroque, romantic or 20thc. Furthermore, I have yet to visit a HIFI shop to audition HIFI whereby the assistant ever listens to classical. Basically, they just know the names of a few artists, never the compossers themselves. The last one mistook Mozart for Mahler! Anway, lots of ranting, but what to do. If you can ever afford it, go down the Quad/Spendor classic route. If not, lots of disapointment. I have a Marantz Pearl Lite (probably OK), Roksan Caspian MK1 (probably too bright) and Neat Petit SX (also too bright). All were brought with auditioning (such an awful process) and then after a brief period of acceptance, disappointment. With string quartets, they sound better on the radio. Piano is also very difficult - a recent Chopin recital of the Ballades (Muller), is so clankerous I can't bear to listen. Violin sonatas are especially bright. Large orchestral pieces (eg Mahler 3) do however, sound very good. Never at any point have i managed to receive expert guidance from someone who actually loves the music themselves and listens to it in preference, so the know what a string quartet should sound like. Usually, after a while of listening they say something like 'OK but why not try this Van Morrison Cd so that you can see what the HIFI is really capable of'.

 

[matthewpiano]

I have to say my system copes extremely well with a full range of classical music from chamber recordings all the way up to Mahler Symphonies and Wagner operas. I've struggled with different set-ups over time, but the Denon amp is extremely capable at reproducing the timbre of individual instruments as well as maintaining them as part of a cohesive whole where applicable. Soundstaging is excellent and the sound never veers towards excessive brightness. This system even copes admirably with piano music, which is very important to me.

The best reasonably priced system I've ever heard for classical music was Arcam CD37, Arcam A38, and Focal Chorus 806v speakers. Still too much money for me at present, but incredible performance for the money.

 

[Phileas]

I love string quartets, but... Almost all HIFI I have owned makes them sound overly shrill...they sound better on the radio.

Do they sound OK on headphones? If not, then surely this is a recording issue?

Personally, leaving aside whether the reproduction is accurate, I don't find string quartets "shrill" (or at least, not unless they're supposed to) on anything I listen with.

 

[chebby]

Francophile, the Yamaha A-S700 could well be the ideal amplifier despite what the WHF? review said about it.

It gives a big, smooth, detailed and effortless sound that is ideal for long periods of listening. (I heard it back when it had 4 stars and before the more fashionably 'tweaked for the UK' A-S500 was launched and before WHF dropped the A-S700 to three stars.)

I hope you get a chance to hear one.

 

[the record spot]

If you see one in good condition, and they come up reasonably often at that so one will, have a look at Sansui's AU-217. Lovely amp, works well with all kinds of music. The Mark I was a 30w model, the Mark II was upped to 40. Typical price around £60.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've had an AS-700. It is a nice amp with, as Chebby suggests, a big, smooth sound. However, it can also come across as being a bit gutless. There tends to be a misconception that classical music requires silky smoothness and warmth above all else, but you also need a system to be able to handle huge orchestral climaxes (far more demanding dynamically than most other music). For me, this is where the AS-700 falls down. It is a big and smooth amp but it isn't a rhythmic amp and despite its power rating it doesn't have adequate sense of dynamic attack when it is required. This is why I couldn't live with it, despite its attractions with smaller-scale chamber music. Certainly one that needs carefully auditioning.

 

[cse]

you also need a system to be able to handle huge orchestral climaxes (far more demanding dynamically than most other music).

I don't agree with that I'm afraid. Even my Bose Wave radio handles orchestral climaxes well. The difficulty is with chamber music - these nearly always disappoint. I would be particularly interested to hear of any concrete examples that are successful. I find even my SACD recording of the late Beethoven Quartetsby the Tokyo Quartet, rather lacking. Again violin tone is a couple of octaves too high, completely ruining the experience. Wagner opers will sound good on any reasonable HIFI. Mahler is difficult, not because of the Highs, but the almost inaudable lows, when although he is using large orchestral forces they are hardly making any sound ie much of the first symphony.

 

[matthewpiano]

To fully control a tutti orchestral climax and maintain textural information takes a very good amplifier. I agree that there are wider issues regarding dynamic range and, certainly, composure and tonal quality at low dynamic levels can be very hard to achieve. A good amplifier should be able to handle both ends of the dynamic spectrum but there are many that struggle.

Regarding chamber music recordings the violin tone cannot possibly be 'a couple of octaves too high'. The hi-fi can onlly reproduce the pitch that has been recorded which will be the pitch at which the music is written. You might find the sound too 'bright' but this is not related to pitch. For the pitch to be affected would require the CD player or turntable to be running fast (resulting in higher pitch) or slow (resulting in lower pitch).

For a really superb quartet recording try the Takacs Quartet's recordings of the Bartok String Quartets. Beautifully recorded and quite extraordinary playing.