cse
Well-known member
I think all this is getting to what is the nub of the issue for me. Hi-fi equipment seems to be made to reproduce the kind of music that most people buy/want to listen to: no surprises there, but a 'good' amp - a five star WHF recommendation for example - should surely be able to cope well with any music, a comment that has been made before on this forum.
Phileas has a point, and I'm well aware that classical CDs (especially) are notoriously varied in recorded quality, mine certainly are; but shouldn't a 'good' amp make the best of what it plays? 'Rubbish in rubbish out' is an easy phrase/excuse, but I want an amp which will make the best of (e.g.) the Kolisch Quartet's marvellous playing of Schubert, even though it was recorded in 1929. The Yamaha I tried (see above) even made a hash of a Haydn quartet (recorded in 2001 on original instruments) and of Walter Klien's 1970's recording of a Schubert sonata; 'clankerous' indeed. These discs don't sound harsh or clankerous on an old Denon DRA-F101 system that I possess, but of course they don't sound particularly clear either.
So your remarks, cse, strike a chord with me, not 'rant', I think, more a cri du coeur as they say where I live; and I very much take your point about the detail/warmth compromise. Is 'warmth' manufacturer-speak for 'muddiness'? In any case, from your experience it appears that simply paying more for an amp will not resolve this issue.
I can't afford an Arcam 38 and can't find an Arcam A65. I am aware that a Quad could be the answer, but is there a suitable Quad which also has a headphones outlet? The Arcam Alpha 9 is high on my possibles list - someone described its sound a a bit 'muddy', which is a encouraging!
I have shown an interest also in Nad amps - here is why:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nad-c350_e.html
I wonder what youmake of this (cse, matthewpiano...).
Phileas has a point, and I'm well aware that classical CDs (especially) are notoriously varied in recorded quality, mine certainly are; but shouldn't a 'good' amp make the best of what it plays? 'Rubbish in rubbish out' is an easy phrase/excuse, but I want an amp which will make the best of (e.g.) the Kolisch Quartet's marvellous playing of Schubert, even though it was recorded in 1929. The Yamaha I tried (see above) even made a hash of a Haydn quartet (recorded in 2001 on original instruments) and of Walter Klien's 1970's recording of a Schubert sonata; 'clankerous' indeed. These discs don't sound harsh or clankerous on an old Denon DRA-F101 system that I possess, but of course they don't sound particularly clear either.
So your remarks, cse, strike a chord with me, not 'rant', I think, more a cri du coeur as they say where I live; and I very much take your point about the detail/warmth compromise. Is 'warmth' manufacturer-speak for 'muddiness'? In any case, from your experience it appears that simply paying more for an amp will not resolve this issue.
I can't afford an Arcam 38 and can't find an Arcam A65. I am aware that a Quad could be the answer, but is there a suitable Quad which also has a headphones outlet? The Arcam Alpha 9 is high on my possibles list - someone described its sound a a bit 'muddy', which is a encouraging!
I have shown an interest also in Nad amps - here is why:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nad-c350_e.html
I wonder what youmake of this (cse, matthewpiano...).
cse said:
OK. I've just listened to the opening of the Beethoven 12th quartet played by the Takacs quartet on Decca on my ADM40s.
Doesn't sound shrill to me.
I've listened to the same track previously on my mobile phone using AKG450 'phones and from memory it didn't sound shrill then either.
Perhaps we have different definitions of the word "shrill"? Do you prefer the sound of string quartets on vinyl?
I think there is a huge variation in the perception of shrill.
For me, Classical music, especially strings and female opera singers, sound best with Valves; and second best with SS Class A. I also prefer speakers from the likes of Sonus Faber, Harbeth and Spendor (especially Classic range), for this type of music.
For me, Classical music, especially strings and female opera singers, sound best with Valves; and second best with SS Class A. I also prefer speakers from the likes of Sonus Faber, Harbeth and Spendor (especially Classic range), for this type of music.
For me, all music sounds best when it sounds real and believable.
I can't believe a properly designed and made amplifier of any kind would cause a string quartet to sound shrill in way it wasn't supposed to.
Poor loudspeakers could, but cse says string quartets sound OK on radio although I'm not sure what he means by that - FM tuner or tranny?
I also don't understand the bit about quartets sounding a couple of octaves too high!
I can't believe a properly designed and made amplifier of any kind would cause a string quartet to sound shrill in way it wasn't supposed to.
Poor loudspeakers could, but cse says string quartets sound OK on radio although I'm not sure what he means by that - FM tuner or tranny?
I also don't understand the bit about quartets sounding a couple of octaves too high!
matthewpiano
Well-known member
I've heard some amps which can provide the heft for a climax but which lose the textural fidelity and detail and I've also heard amps which maintain the textural and timbral detail but can't summon up the heft for large orchestral peaks. The Yamaha A-S700 is in the latter camp as is the Arcam A18, whereas some NAD models I've heard sit in the first. Getting an amp which strikes a good balance between the two isn't all that easy.
I noticed a reference to a 'clangorous' piano sound earlier. Do bear in mind that this may be the tonal quality of the instrument used for the recording. Some pianos can be very bright and aggressive and not all pianists or engineers give as much consideration to the tonal quality of the instrument chosen as you might think. A beautifully prepared Steinway is a thing of beauty but there are some pretty rough sounding ones out there as well. If you want to hear a beautiful piano recorded really well sample Martin Roscoe's ongoing Beethoven Sonata cycle on the Deux-Elles label, recorded at Potton Hall. These releases have some of the best recorded piano sound in the catalogue and the playing itself is absolutely wonderful.
To the OP, there are some Arcam A85s on Ebay. This would be a great buy as it has more dynamic capability than the A18 but retains the smaller amp's ability to communicate textural and timbral detail very convincingly. It is a fine amplifier.
I noticed a reference to a 'clangorous' piano sound earlier. Do bear in mind that this may be the tonal quality of the instrument used for the recording. Some pianos can be very bright and aggressive and not all pianists or engineers give as much consideration to the tonal quality of the instrument chosen as you might think. A beautifully prepared Steinway is a thing of beauty but there are some pretty rough sounding ones out there as well. If you want to hear a beautiful piano recorded really well sample Martin Roscoe's ongoing Beethoven Sonata cycle on the Deux-Elles label, recorded at Potton Hall. These releases have some of the best recorded piano sound in the catalogue and the playing itself is absolutely wonderful.
To the OP, there are some Arcam A85s on Ebay. This would be a great buy as it has more dynamic capability than the A18 but retains the smaller amp's ability to communicate textural and timbral detail very convincingly. It is a fine amplifier.
Blackdawn
Well-known member
To the OP, as you already have the Marantz CD player I would suggest looking at the amp as well. I would also think importantely about speakers - try Quad classic 11 or 12, Castle Knight or Boston Acoustics A26 for something different.
String quartets sounding shrill on hifi? I will accede that some steroe gear can be brighter sounding and partnering too much of that together is probably a bad idea, but blanket statements like "hifi can't do string quartets" is off the pace I think. No idea what CSE is expecting, or what gear he is using, but I'd be inclined to disagree with his views here.
the record spot said:
The definition of "shrill" is as subjective as anything else in hifi.
I completely understand where CSE is coming from, as there are very few SS amps that (for me) completely capture the tonal magic of a violin....I usually find it comes across as a touch bright, sterile and unemotional. That doesn't mean I expect anyone to agree with me, or even that I'm right.....but I do completely understand what I like.
Amps that capture this can fall down playing other genres of music......which is why I was so pleased to find the amp that I own, as I have yet to find a type of music it can't handle.....all IMO of course.
I guess my own view leans towards it being less to do with the equipment and more to do with source recordings or subsequent transfers that are closer to the problem of sound quality. I've no issues with how violins sound on my stereos, or indeed anything else, but I do have concerns with recording quality; less so, but not to their exclusion, with classical compared to rock.
Phileas said:
Not if you are into valves or Class A.
Have you ever heard an Audio Note system; a Unison Research, Mastersound or Icon Audio Valve amp; or a MF AMS or Sugden Masterclass amp?
If this opinion is absurd, I suspect there are quite a few on here who share it.
CnoEvil said:
Cno , why waste finger tip skin mate. You are preaching on the wrong forum. Actually you wouldnt have to on any other forum.
I know , you know , just let em get on with listening to thirty bobs worth of trannies .
Hee hee , Im oot.
busb
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:
Absolutely. Some classical recordings ain't that hot but in general, pop music is far more variable such as being too bright or suffering from severe amplitude distortion caused by too much compression. I do question the desire for wanting a "warm" sound as being anything other than wanting colouration though.
busb said:
I would argue that removing crossover distortion brings a sound that suits my ear better......IMO it's a matter of choosing your poison.
I think people forget that there is no "right and wrong" in hifi, as they are convinced that they are right, and everyone who takes a different view, is wrong.......I am talking very generally here.
matthewpiano - thanks for the arcam A85 suggestion, which I will certainly follow up. Of the two groups of amp you mention, I would probably opt for the second & though it would be nice to have an amp that could do justice to (say) Tennstedt's live recording of Mahler 2, my priority is for chamber music, if I have to choose; not easy as you say.
I am interested also in your comments about string quartet and piano performances: it was listening the Takacs Quartet's Decca 2001 recording of Beethoven's Op 59 no.1 that partly turned me against the Yamaha amp: wonderful playing but the 'brightness' of the upper registers of Edward Dusinberre's violin was not pleasant to hear, not something I could live with. Op.59 no.2 - where there are more passages in the upper register of the first violin - was to my ears better handled on my old Arcam Alpha 3 - 'better' here means with greater equanimity & balanced delivery, albeit with rather less clarity and immediacy.
I have read great things about the Takacs's Bartok set but I already have 3 sets of these quartets (Novak, Vegh and Keller Quartets); I find their playing of Schubert a bit, er, muscular, and prefer the Belcea of Amadeus Quartets in this music. Similarly with the piano: generally I prefer hear Schubert and Mozart played on a Bosendorfer; the Steinway has to my ears a more imposing & commanding sound, more suited perhaps to Beethoven. All a matter of taste I guess, and something for another thread.
I wonder btw why you do not recommend your Denon PMA720AE a a suitable amp? Not good with the rest of my set-up maybe?
Blackdawn - I've only just bought the speakers, so don't want to change them, and I was in contact with someone who said the Marantz 6004 amp had very similar qualities to the Yamaha AS500.
I am interested also in your comments about string quartet and piano performances: it was listening the Takacs Quartet's Decca 2001 recording of Beethoven's Op 59 no.1 that partly turned me against the Yamaha amp: wonderful playing but the 'brightness' of the upper registers of Edward Dusinberre's violin was not pleasant to hear, not something I could live with. Op.59 no.2 - where there are more passages in the upper register of the first violin - was to my ears better handled on my old Arcam Alpha 3 - 'better' here means with greater equanimity & balanced delivery, albeit with rather less clarity and immediacy.
I have read great things about the Takacs's Bartok set but I already have 3 sets of these quartets (Novak, Vegh and Keller Quartets); I find their playing of Schubert a bit, er, muscular, and prefer the Belcea of Amadeus Quartets in this music. Similarly with the piano: generally I prefer hear Schubert and Mozart played on a Bosendorfer; the Steinway has to my ears a more imposing & commanding sound, more suited perhaps to Beethoven. All a matter of taste I guess, and something for another thread.
I wonder btw why you do not recommend your Denon PMA720AE a a suitable amp? Not good with the rest of my set-up maybe?
Blackdawn - I've only just bought the speakers, so don't want to change them, and I was in contact with someone who said the Marantz 6004 amp had very similar qualities to the Yamaha AS500.
Crossover distortion? Linkwitz-Riley or Butterworth? First or second order?
I lived with someone who was learning violin for a few years. The amp doesn't come into it, but the instrument does. One violin doesn't necessarily sound like another, and that's independent of the amp.
P.S The first few months were hell.
P.P.S Francophile, try a valve amp. Only really good for classical and jazz, but what they do well, no other amp can touch. Mind you, you have to wait while the bu**ers warm up for 20 minutes.
I lived with someone who was learning violin for a few years. The amp doesn't come into it, but the instrument does. One violin doesn't necessarily sound like another, and that's independent of the amp.
P.S The first few months were hell.
P.P.S Francophile, try a valve amp. Only really good for classical and jazz, but what they do well, no other amp can touch. Mind you, you have to wait while the bu**ers warm up for 20 minutes.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
Hi francophile. I love the PMA720AE and I find it works really well across the full range of classical music, which is why I mentioned earlier that I really enjoy my system. I'd say the Denon would be worth auditioning, but you'd have to see how it works within your system and your ears. Your Marantz CD player would be a good partner. All any of us can do is give you a range of different suggestions. You really need to try them for yourself.
It is nice to read somebody expressing a desire to hear recordings of something other than a Steinway. As I said before, a really nicely prepared Steinway B and D can sound beautiful but there are so many other makes of piano with other qualities to offer out there and I'd love to hear more people recording on a range of pianos including those of Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Bechstein, Fazioli, Bluthner and Grotrian Steinweg. Variety is interesting!
It is nice to read somebody expressing a desire to hear recordings of something other than a Steinway. As I said before, a really nicely prepared Steinway B and D can sound beautiful but there are so many other makes of piano with other qualities to offer out there and I'd love to hear more people recording on a range of pianos including those of Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Bechstein, Fazioli, Bluthner and Grotrian Steinweg. Variety is interesting!
I agree with Cnoevil. A good valve amp will do things in the midrange that solid state amps can't. This is based on the valve amps that I've compared against the solid state amps. A good valve amp will have a naturalness to the midrange that makes solid state sound synthetic. A bit robotic. This is most apparent on vocals and acoustic instruments such as violins. In the midrange a good valve amp is better at creating the illusion that there is nothing there between the source and the speakers. That it is acting as a "wire with gain." Good solid state amps have bass grip that valve amps can't match.
The original poster mentioned that his small room is well furnished with a lot of books. I like well furnished rooms for listening to hi-fi as they reduce bass echoes leading to a cleaner bass. The downside of this is that lean speakers that rely on room reinforcement to achieve a neutral tonal balance can sound too lean in such a room.
Live violins are stringent sounding instruments. But there's a difference between stringent and shrill.
The original poster mentioned that his small room is well furnished with a lot of books. I like well furnished rooms for listening to hi-fi as they reduce bass echoes leading to a cleaner bass. The downside of this is that lean speakers that rely on room reinforcement to achieve a neutral tonal balance can sound too lean in such a room.
Live violins are stringent sounding instruments. But there's a difference between stringent and shrill.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
I'm looking forward to hearing something from Icon Audio at the Audio World show at Manchester Airport in March. I've often wondered what their gear is like as it is comparatively affordable for valve amplification.
I think excellent results are possible with SS gear but the best system I've heard with classical music had valve amplification at its heart.
After reading some of the comments in this thread I made a point of listening to some chamber music last night. I played the Schidlof Quartet's recording of the Shostakovich Piano Quintet on Linn Records, Itzhak Perlman's Decca recording of the Franck Violin Sonata and the Takacs Quartet's recording of Bartok Quartet No.3. I also played Heifetz's recording of the Brahms Violin Concerto to test the limits of the system with an older recording of solo violin plus orchestra. On none of these recordings did I have problems with bright upper strings. Everything sounded realistic and 3 dimensional with a lovely sense of the tonal qualities of the instruments.
I think excellent results are possible with SS gear but the best system I've heard with classical music had valve amplification at its heart.
After reading some of the comments in this thread I made a point of listening to some chamber music last night. I played the Schidlof Quartet's recording of the Shostakovich Piano Quintet on Linn Records, Itzhak Perlman's Decca recording of the Franck Violin Sonata and the Takacs Quartet's recording of Bartok Quartet No.3. I also played Heifetz's recording of the Brahms Violin Concerto to test the limits of the system with an older recording of solo violin plus orchestra. On none of these recordings did I have problems with bright upper strings. Everything sounded realistic and 3 dimensional with a lovely sense of the tonal qualities of the instruments.
matthewpiano said:
I suspect you are well on your way to becoming absurd, whereas myself and Lindsay are already there.
FWIW. I am not saying all recordings on all SS amps sound shrill; what I'm saying is that it plays to the strength of valves.
I look forward to your thoughts from the show.....for your taste in music, I would certainly have a valve amp on my radar, which I believe would bring a new dimension of emotion to the music (just ask CJ).
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