Budget repalcement amp for classical - advice please

[francophile]

Hi matthewpiano -

I'm on a learning curve here and know little about hi-fi separates or about the jargon used to describe their various qualities. I'm just looking for an amp at a price I can afford (around £350) which will do justice to the kind of music I like to listen to, and which will combine happily with my Marantz CD player and Dynaudio speakers; I assume the Arcam 85 will do that reasonably well, or you would not have suggested it. If I narrow it down to two or three, I can then think about auditioning, and where to buy something that's no longer made.

I began to think, with something like dismay, that I was asking the impossible. But now I'm also finding out about valve amps, which I'd not really considered as I thought they'd be out of my price range, though it appears that Chinese-made ones are affordable.

 

[Phileas]

If this opinion is absurd, I suspect there are quite a few on here who share it.

Exactly! :wall:

You have nicely sidestepped my question.

I'm not really interested in listening to a load of valve amps because my understanding (limited, I admit) of the engineering side of things strongly suggests they would be, at best, no different from SS and, at worst more distorted, perhaps much more.

I.e. I don't see the point really.

 

[busb]

Absolutely. Some classical recordings ain't that hot but in general, pop music is far more variable such as being too bright or suffering from severe amplitude distortion caused by too much compression. I do question the desire for wanting a "warm" sound as being anything other than wanting colouration though.

I think people forget that there is no "right and wrong" in hifi, as they are convinced that they are right, and everyone who takes a different view, is wrong.......I am talking very generally here.

I come from an era when the goal of a HiFi system was to get as close to the original sound as possible. It now appears that anything goes. We now collectively advise people by asking them what sort of music they listen to. I personally find this question absurd. I listen to all sorts of music rather than exclusively rock, pop, classical or jazz. I suspect I'm not alone in my broad tastes, in fact, I'd suggest most people listen to more than a single genre with opposing challenges to many speakers & some amps.

I don't have a problem with valve amps (anymore than I do with active systems apart from people turning their ownership into a religion) but one thing I'm no longer interested in ia any system that concentrates on a single "cause" such as breath-taking midrange, awesome bass or sweet treble. it's question of balance.

I used to work with a guy who listened exclusively to reggae. He complained that most HiFi systems couldn't handle the bass when the wick was turned up. I suggested he went with a PA system.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not really interested in listening to a load of valve amps because my understanding (limited, I admit) of the engineering side of things strongly suggests they would be, at best, no different from SS and, at worst more distorted, perhaps much more.

I.e. I don't see the point really.

My point would then be, that if you have not heard the difference in the way that these two amp designs handle violins, you cannot say with any certainty, whether I'm being absurd (maybe I am?).

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Hi matthewpiano -

I'm on a learning curve here and know little about hi-fi separates or about the jargon used to describe their various qualities. I'm just looking for an amp at a price I can afford (around £350) which will do justice to the kind of music I like to listen to, and which will combine happily with my Marantz CD player and Dynaudio speakers; I assume the Arcam 85 will do that reasonably well, or you would not have suggested it. If I narrow it down to two or three, I can then think about auditioning, and where to buy something that's no longer made.

I began to think, with something like dismay, that I was asking the impossible. But now I'm also finding out about valve amps, which I'd not really considered as I thought they'd be out of my price range, though it appears that Chinese-made ones are affordable.

Those speakers might be a problem with valve, mate. Their 86db and 6 ohm - you'd need a valve amp with grunt and you'd need to make sure that it's rated for speakers from 6 ohm going down to a (likely, don't have the specs) to 4 ohms and possibly lower.

 

[CnoEvil]

I come from an era when the goal of a HiFi system was to get as close to the original sound as possible. It now appears that anything goes. We now collectively advise people by asking them what sort of music they listen to. I personally find this question absurd. I listen to all sorts of music rather than exclusively rock, pop, classical or jazz. I suspect I'm not alone in my broad tastes, in fact, I'd suggest most people listen to more than a single genre with opposing challenges to many speakers & some amps.

If hifi and the interpretation of music could be distilled down to "one sound fits all". how simple and boring it would be. Absurd as it may be, people like different presentations, and different brands sound different.....which one is right.....all?......none?

The reality that exists, is that it is vital to find out what a person likes before making a recommendation, otherwise he will be back on complaining that the sound is too bright / dull / smooth / boomy. There isn't a week that goes by that there isn't complaints of this nature.

There is no point in recommending Cyrus to a person who would prefer Valves and vica versa. I think your "science brain" wants to rationalize this in a logical way....but this has to be viewed with the much harder to fathom "art brain", which is about personal taste and not necessarily cold logic.

I don't think you can ever role out one's own taste as a blueprint for everyone else......frustrating as this may be.

 

[Phileas]

I'm not really interested in listening to a load of valve amps because my understanding (limited, I admit) of the engineering side of things strongly suggests they would be, at best, no different from SS and, at worst more distorted, perhaps much more.

I.e. I don't see the point really.

My point would then be, that if you have not heard the difference in the way that these two amp designs handle violins, you cannot say with any certainty, whether I'm being absurd (maybe I am?).

I knew you were going to say that but I don't think it's valid.

For me it's a question of probabilities. Is it more likely that engineering and science is correct or someone (not just you Cno) on the Internet who freely admits he only cares what his ears tell him (when we know from science that these are fallible)?

 

[CnoEvil]

I knew you were going to say that but I don't think it's valid.

For me it's a question of probabilities. Is it more likely that engineering and science is correct or someone (not just you Cno) on the Internet who freely admits he only cares what his ears tell him (when we know from science that these are fallible)?

I have no problem with your approach, but it doesn't mean mine is daft.

For me, probablities are not a good enough reason for not experimenting with what else is available.

 

[Phileas]

it doesn't mean mine is daft.

We'll have to agree to differ there!

For me, probablities are not a good enough reason for not experimenting with what else is available.

I'm talking very high probabilities.

Another issue is that I don't want to waste time and money "experimenting", I want to get to the best solution in the most efficient manner.

 

[francophile]

Hi matthewpiano -

I'm on a learning curve here and know little about hi-fi separates or about the jargon used to describe their various qualities. I'm just looking for an amp at a price I can afford (around £350) which will do justice to the kind of music I like to listen to, and which will combine happily with my Marantz CD player and Dynaudio speakers; I assume the Arcam 85 will do that reasonably well, or you would not have suggested it. If I narrow it down to two or three, I can then think about auditioning, and where to buy something that's no longer made.

I began to think, with something like dismay, that I was asking the impossible. But now I'm also finding out about valve amps, which I'd not really considered as I thought they'd be out of my price range, though it appears that Chinese-made ones are affordable.

Those speakers might be a problem with valve, mate. Their 86db and 6 ohm - you'd need a valve amp with grunt and you'd need to make sure that it's rated for speakers from 6 ohm going down to a (likely, don't have the specs) to 4 ohms and possibly lower.

Thanks altruistic.lemon - just the sort of thing I could easily get wrong.

I'll probably opt for an Arcam A85

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm talking very high probabilities.

Another issue is that I don't want to waste time and money "experimenting", I want to get to the best solution in the most efficient manner.

This of course is your prerogative, but it's a view that accounts for a lot of the arguments between the people who have heard something, and people telling them they couldn't have, citing "high probability" as the reason.

Anyway, I've taken this topic enough off course, so apologies to the OP.

:beer: :beer:

Cno

 

[busb]

I come from an era when the goal of a HiFi system was to get as close to the original sound as possible. It now appears that anything goes. We now collectively advise people by asking them what sort of music they listen to. I personally find this question absurd. I listen to all sorts of music rather than exclusively rock, pop, classical or jazz. I suspect I'm not alone in my broad tastes, in fact, I'd suggest most people listen to more than a single genre with opposing challenges to many speakers & some amps.

If hifi and the interpretation of music could be distilled down to "one sound fits all". how simple and boring it would be. Absurd as it may be, people like different presentations, and different brands sound different.....which one is right.....all?......none?

The reality that exists, is that it is vital to find out what a person likes before making a recommendation, otherwise he will be back on complaining that the sound is too bright / dull / smooth / boomy. There isn't a week that goes by that there isn't complaints of this nature.

There is no point in recommending Cyrus to a person who would prefer Valves and vica versa. I think your "science brain" wants to rationalize this in a logical way....but this has to be viewed with the much harder to fathom "art brain", which is about personal taste and not necessarily cold logic.

I don't think you can ever role out one's own taste as a blueprint for everyone else......frustrating as this may be.

Actually, I don't completely disagree with you. If someone held a gun to my head, demanding to know if I was an objectivist or subjectivist, I'd answer the latter (well, most of the time)! For instance, I have grave doubts regarding the effectiveness of ABX testing done over any period less than a week due to the fact that short-term memory is too unreliable & the lack of control over false negatives skewing the results.

My new amp has hilighted one aspect of presentation relavent to this thread that might be considered to contradict my statement regarding asking people what sort of music they listened to as being absurd. The Primare takes no prisoners regarding recording quality. This means about 70% of my music sounds stunning - fabulous detail, imaging & depth, extremely well-controlled bass, natural mids & treble like I never heard before. The other 30% now sounds worse: distorted, compressed or far too bright. It's a matter of choice whether one is willing to tolerate a not insignificant part of one's collection sounding sub-optimal but good recordings sounding breathtaking or smoothing out the warts but rounds the edges off the good.

Perhaps we need to ask a different question of those asking for advice - do you want realism that will also highlight poor recordings or do want something that will be less revealing & often less exciting with decent stuff?

 

[CnoEvil]

Actually, I don't completely disagree with you. If someone held a gun to my head, demanding to know if I was an objectivist or subjectivist, I'd answer the latter (well, most of the time)! For instance, I have grave doubts regarding the effectiveness of ABX testing done over any period less than a week due to the fact that short-term memory is too unreliable & the lack of control over false negatives skewing the results.

My new amp has hilighted one aspect of presentation relavent to this thread that might be considered to contradict my statement regarding asking people what sort of music they listened to as being absurd. The Primare takes no prisoners regarding recording quality. This means about 70% of my music sounds stunning - fabulous detail, imaging & depth, extremely well-controlled bass, natural mids & treble like I never heard before. The other 30% now sounds worse: distorted, compressed or far too bright. It's a matter of choice whether one is willing to tolerate a not insignificant part of one's collection sounding sub-optimal but good recordings sounding breathtaking or smoothing out the warts but rounds the edges off the good.

Perhaps we need to ask a different question of those asking for advice - do you want realism that will also highlight poor recordings or do want something that will be less revealing & often less exciting with decent stuff?

You my friend, are suffering from cognitive dissonance. :shifty:

The fact you originally chose Celestion SL6s, tells me that you have a side that listens with your heart, rather than your head.....they are lovely speakers, but imo, not exactly neutral.

I think the right kit hides little, but doesn't make bad recordings worse......if you don't believe me, try and get a listen to the AMS35i, which imo loses nothing in detail, but is always musical. My view, which I have been stating a lot recently, is that it's due to the removal of switching distortion.

 

[GCE]

Interesting thread!

- I had Quad 306+34 * * * * * (for 20 yrs silk sound, but you must add some tool for headphone),

- Yam AS500 * * ( only for a week, same impressions like you)

- Yam700 * * * * ( better, smooter than 500)

- and now Marantz 6004 * * * * * (liquid sound);

here some interesting links for you, sorry but they are in french...

:

http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/index.php

http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/index.php

Perhaps we need to ask a different question of those asking for advice - do you want realism that will also highlight poor recordings or do want something that will be less revealing & often less exciting with decent stuff?

Interesting point: I was hearing to a "1 m long shelf of vinil LP" ( a present from my brother) and, after a recording SQ based selection, now the shelf occupation is 50 cm...

 

[CnoEvil]

Crossover distortion? Linkwitz-Riley or Butterworth? First or second order?

I lived with someone who was learning violin for a few years. The amp doesn't come into it, but the instrument does. One violin doesn't necessarily sound like another, and that's independent of the amp.

P.S The first few months were hell.

P.P.S Francophile, try a valve amp. Only really good for classical and jazz, but what they do well, no other amp can touch. Mind you, you have to wait while the bu**ers warm up for 20 minutes.

The type of distortion that is avoided by Class A, which doesn't have to switch on and off their output transisters (as they are both on all the time) to make up the two halves of the 360 deg wave form. The downside is power wasted as heat.

 

[cse]

I think that Matthewpiano seems to find all of his recorcdings acceptable and yet when he went on to to the Gramophone Forum and posted a thread asking about peoples HIFI gear, he found that many of the respondees had isuues with string tone in chamber music. Far less so in concertos. When I listen at home and am disapointed with the sound of a violin or cello, it's based upon what I expect it to sound like from having been to a concert. For example, I often go to Snape Maltings (15 mins away) so I am aware of what an instrument sounds like. I do not however expect it to sound as good. If you look on the Gramophone Forum, you will find the biggest discontent is sound quality, every recording is analysed and compared. The problem is that chamber music, seems to be really hard to get right. I have an expensive system, which I took some care in choosing, but i wonder if there was really any point. What you need is guidance from experts who actually understand where you are coming from, not people who tell you that you are not actually listening properly. I am thinking of exploring the valve amplification route, but am concerned about longevity/reliability. Vintage/second hand is also an option. As a word of caution, I would strongly advise anyone who listens to classical, not to buy the latest best buy budget product (not that I ever have). It is a specialised and minority interest and most of the current contemporary solutions are imensely inadequate.

 

[GCE]

Sorry, but this site is driving us crazy for editing changes...

here the correct links:

- http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/affichage-amplis-DENON__PMA_710_-_AE.html

- http://www.audiophilefr.com/Site/ecoutes/affichage-amplis-MARANTZ_-_PM_6004.html

 

[cse]

I can't believe a properly designed and made amplifier of any kind would cause a string quartet to sound shrill in way it wasn't supposed to.

Poor loudspeakers could, but cse says string quartets sound OK on radio although I'm not sure what he means by that - FM tuner or tranny?

I also don't understand the bit about quartets sounding a couple of octaves too high!

Well if you don't understand the issue of the music not sounding right, it's difficult to understand the point of your contributions.

 

[cse]

String quartets sounding shrill on hifi? I will accede that some steroe gear can be brighter sounding and partnering too much of that together is probably a bad idea, but blanket statements like "hifi can't do string quartets" is off the pace I think. No idea what CSE is expecting, or what gear he is using, but I'd be inclined to disagree with his views here.

I think you notice that I've already stated 'what gear I am using'. What CSE is expecting is to enjoy the experience. What actual expertise can you bring to the table?

 

[cse]

I am interested also in your comments about string quartet and piano performances: it was listening the Takacs Quartet's Decca 2001 recording of Beethoven's Op 59 no.1 that partly turned me against the Yamaha amp: wonderful playing but the 'brightness' of the upper registers of Edward Dusinberre's violin was not pleasant to hear, not something I could live with. Op.59 no.2 - where there are more passages in the upper register of the first violin - was to my ears better handled on my old Arcam Alpha 3 - 'better' here means with greater equanimity & balanced delivery, albeit with rather less clarity and immediacy.

I also have this Beethoven set and whilst not the greatest culprit, is not a warm enough recording to my ears.

.

 

[matthewpiano]

I have never said that every recording is acceptable. That is ridiculous. I'm talking about the way in which my own particular system (which you have not heard) handles recordings with which I am very familiar. Certain allowances have to be made with some recordings due to their age or the circumstances in which they were recorded and you just can't blame this on the equipment. You will never find any hi-fi system which makes every recording sound wonderful, no matter what genre of music you listen to. The very nature of recorded classical music, and the fact that some of the greatest recordings were made using an acoustic rather than electric process, and/or before stereo sound became the norm, means that we often have to listen through the sound quality in order to enjoy a great performance. Likewise there are some early digital recordings which are always going to have an edge to them, but you can't just abandon the music making contained within.

You appear to view those of us who listen to classical music as belonging to some sort of exclusive club and that being able to list certain experiences makes one more worthy. Sorry but this is rubbish. I could reel off a whole load of reasons why I'm qualified to discuss these issues but ultimately it is about enjoyment and sharing the music. Emphasising the 'specialised' and 'minority' nature of classical music listening only serves to reinforce elitism. There are lots of people out there who enjoy the western classical repertoire and there is plenty of equipment out there on which listening to it is perfectly enjoyable. Nobody, irrespective of the styles of music they listen to, should jump into buying the 'latest best buy product' as it can cause disatisfaction whether you listen to Monteverdi or Maroon 5.

 

[the record spot]

I think you notice that I've already stated 'what gear I am using'. What CSE is expecting is to enjoy the experience. What actual expertise can you bring to the table?

Umm, your point is? Oh I see, it's a flag waving thing, well okay then. I've been listening to music of all kinds on all manner of systems for coming up on 40 years now. I've been to any number of concerts, rock, jazz, classical, have friends who are professional musicians in the SCO, the BBC Wales Orchestra, and the Halle. They all play the violin and I've heard them play not only in concert, but while they're rehaearsing when we've been on holiday. Another friend is a good friend of Wynton Marsalis and I've heard him play piano in his dressing room at the Usher Hall as well as on stage.

Concerts? The SCO, the RSNO, a string quartet (the name escapes me) in Edinburgh, the LA Phil, the St Petersburg Phil, Scottish Opera's version of Wagner's Ring Cycle between 2001 and 2004 and a stack of others in Edinburgh, Glasgow and London, plus one at Verona's Opera House.

In short, I know what a ***ing violin sounds like.

 

[cse]

I have never said that every recording is acceptable. You appear to view those of us who listen to classical music as belonging to some sort of exclusive club and that being able to list certain experiences makes one more worthy.

Can you actually analyse any classical recordings that you own that you don't enjoy? If you can't I'm not sure that you are able to empathise with the problem.

Listening to classical music is elitist, separate and more worthy. It is highbrow and that it why I enjoy it. It is capable of exploring greater emotional and intellectual depths than rock/folk or pop. This is a minority view, hense it not mainstream. I'm not particularly bothered that you find it arrogant because I believe that I am right and you are wrong. Hardly anybody in percentage terms, knows anything about classical music or spends any extended amount of time listening to it.

 

[Phileas]

I can't believe a properly designed and made amplifier of any kind would cause a string quartet to sound shrill in way it wasn't supposed to.

Poor loudspeakers could, but cse says string quartets sound OK on radio although I'm not sure what he means by that - FM tuner or tranny?

I also don't understand the bit about quartets sounding a couple of octaves too high!

Well if you don't understand the issue of the music not sounding right, it's difficult to understand the point of your contributions.

I'm sorry if my remarks offended you in any way. I'm not trying to suggest I know better than you what a violin sounds like because I'm sure I don't. What I'm saying is that I don't believe any half decent amplifier is able to make a violin sound wrong and that the problem must lie somewhere else.

You say strings sound OK on your radio. Is this the Bose Wave radio?

 

[cse]

I think you notice that I've already stated 'what gear I am using'. What CSE is expecting is to enjoy the experience. What actual expertise can you bring to the table?

Umm, your point is? Oh I see, it's a flag waving thing, well okay then. I've been listening to music of all kinds on all manner of systems for coming up on 40 years now. I've been to any number of concerts, rock, jazz, classical, have friends who are professional musicians in the SCO, the BBC Wales Orchestra, and the Halle. They all play the violin and I've heard them play not only in concert, but while they're rehaearsing when we've been on holiday. Another friend is a good friend of Wynton Marsalis and I've heard him play piano in his dressing room at the Usher Hall as well as on stage.

Concerts? The SCO, the RSNO, a string quartet (the name escapes me) in Edinburgh, the LA Phil, the St Petersburg Phil, Scottish Opera's version of Wagner's Ring Cycle between 2001 and 2004 and a stack of others in Edinburgh, Glasgow and London, plus one at Verona's Opera House.

In short, I know what a ***ing violin sounds like.

You obviously mix in very high circles. I don't. However, I do find the reproduction of chamber music in my listeng room to be very disappointing, unlikely to be resolved with a Denon amp.