I am questioning if bi wire system will obviously increase the sound quality of my Rotel RA-1520 and B&W CM9?
Bi wire - is it worthwhile?
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manicm
Well-known member
If your amp supports two sets of cables/two pairs of speakers (which I would imagine it does) then yes you should definitely at least investigate. In fact in this scenario B&W recommends it.
6th.replicant
Well-known member
IME, bi-wiring makes a huge difference, especially re separation and depth (hope I've used correct parlance?).
However, my amp effectively has two sets of speaker outputs - something to do with compatibility with a power amp? - and I have both SP1 and SP2 selected/on with each bi-wire cable configured 4-out > 4-in (again, hope I've used correct parlance?).
TBH, when configured with conventional single-strand cable and SP1-only setup the A70 was rather average - the SP1/SP2 + bi-wire option is a night and day improvement, it seems to come alive.
Then again, I used to have an Arcam Alpha, 1987 vintage, which had conventional 2-plug speaker outputs, and bi-wiring also made a discernible difference - a very cost-effective upgrade IMHO. For example, I experimented with QED's cheapo Original Bi-wire and 2-strand Silver Anniversary and the former had much better separation and depth compared to the latter.
Although I'm sure that the Naysayers will be here soon...
However, my amp effectively has two sets of speaker outputs - something to do with compatibility with a power amp? - and I have both SP1 and SP2 selected/on with each bi-wire cable configured 4-out > 4-in (again, hope I've used correct parlance?).
TBH, when configured with conventional single-strand cable and SP1-only setup the A70 was rather average - the SP1/SP2 + bi-wire option is a night and day improvement, it seems to come alive.
Then again, I used to have an Arcam Alpha, 1987 vintage, which had conventional 2-plug speaker outputs, and bi-wiring also made a discernible difference - a very cost-effective upgrade IMHO. For example, I experimented with QED's cheapo Original Bi-wire and 2-strand Silver Anniversary and the former had much better separation and depth compared to the latter.
Although I'm sure that the Naysayers will be here soon...
SteveR750
Well-known member
To my ears the difference was almost imperceptible, and might well have been imaginary, therefore I don't bother, and its cheaper!
6th.replicant
Well-known member
borapelenk:I am questioning if bi wire system will obviously increase the sound quality of my Rotel RA-1520 and B&W CM9?
Try contacting Future Shop - ask to speak with Adam (techy fella) - explain your dilemma and I'm pretty sure he'll have a solution that'll enable you to home-demo bi- and single-wire versions of a cable?
You'll never know 'til you've tried...
Try contacting Future Shop - ask to speak with Adam (techy fella) - explain your dilemma and I'm pretty sure he'll have a solution that'll enable you to home-demo bi- and single-wire versions of a cable?
You'll never know 'til you've tried...
SteveR750:To my ears the difference was almost imperceptible, and might well have been imaginary, therefore I don't bother, and its cheaper!Same here.
First time I tried it was on my missions many moons ago and that made quite a big difference (Which really suprised me).
Ive always biwired since, but perhaps the equipment used (especially the speakers) can make a difference as to whether or not biwring is worth it?
Ive always biwired since, but perhaps the equipment used (especially the speakers) can make a difference as to whether or not biwring is worth it?
Tarquinh:SteveR750:To my ears the difference was almost imperceptible, and might well have been imaginary, therefore I don't bother, and its cheaper!Same here.
same here too. but as alienrik says, maybe kit dependant.
same here too. but as alienrik says, maybe kit dependant.
Bi-wiring makes a difference in the same way the bi-amping makes a difference. Obviously for the latter you pay a lot more and get a much bigger difference, but in both cases if you start off with one set of cables or an integrated amp then adding another set of cables, or a power amp is a cost effective way to reap an immediate improvement.
However when starting from scratch on either cables or amp, whether spending your money on bi-wiring with cable X that costs £1 p.m. is better than single wiring with cable Y that costs £2 p.m. is much more of a grey area. Likewise is an integrated amp + a power amp in a bi-amp configuration better then spending the same amount of money as that combination on a better integrated amp? I have tried this out with both the cables and the amps and categorically proven to myself that if buying from scratch then it's better to take your whole cable budget and buy the best single wire cables you can, or likewise your amp budget on the best single-amping amp you can.
Obviously other people's experiences may differ!
However when starting from scratch on either cables or amp, whether spending your money on bi-wiring with cable X that costs £1 p.m. is better than single wiring with cable Y that costs £2 p.m. is much more of a grey area. Likewise is an integrated amp + a power amp in a bi-amp configuration better then spending the same amount of money as that combination on a better integrated amp? I have tried this out with both the cables and the amps and categorically proven to myself that if buying from scratch then it's better to take your whole cable budget and buy the best single wire cables you can, or likewise your amp budget on the best single-amping amp you can.
Obviously other people's experiences may differ!
SteveR750
Well-known member
Hmm, I can why bi-amping might work, as you are presenting a different load to the amp, and therefore making it possibly easier drive accurately. Bi-wiring doesn't change anything other than the cable resistance, which a thicker core wold also achieve at probably reduced increase in capacitance.
the best i have heard is a very minor difference and on some systems i have been unable to notice any difference. In saying that, i have bi wired my speakers. I suggest you demo first as might not be worth the extra cash and only way you will really know is to listen yourself.
Thank you for your valuable advices. I think I want to try it. Meantime I have a Rotel RA-1520 integrated amplifier and as speakers I have B&W CM9. I think bi-wiring would most propably provide a better quality sound.
Are there any brand and qualifications for cable that you recommend?
Are there any brand and qualifications for cable that you recommend?
I have not tried bi-wiring. Is it electrically different from normal conenction?
If not, whay would it make any difference?
If not, whay would it make any difference?
SteveR750:Hmm, I can why bi-amping might work, as you are presenting a different load to the amp, and therefore making it possibly easier drive accurately. Bi-wiring doesn't change anything other than the cable resistance, which a thicker core wold also achieve at probably reduced increase in capacitance.
When I got my SuperNait (had previously been bi-amping and therefore had 4 lengths of Atlas Hyper 2.0) my dealer's advice was to use each length with both conductors combined into a single banana plug for each terminal, effectively turning it into Hyper 4.0.
I haven't actually tried it in bi-wire configuration with the SuperNait, so can't claim a direct comparison, but I can't argue with the results.
However when bi-wiring or bi-amping something else is happening which can potentially cause a difference. Although it might not seem possible on the face of it, only the high frequencies flow along the cables connected to the HF terminals and only the low frequencies flow along the cables attached to the LF terminals. That's because as electricity flows through the electrical circuit in this case it is basically a flow of electrons from positive terminal on the amp to the negative terminal on the amp. Because there is a filter in it's path (for HF the cross-over is screening out low frequencies and vice versa) electrons flowing at frequencies that are not allowed to pass by the cross-over never complete the circuit.
In the case of bi-wiring the separation of signals is from the point where the cables are connected to the amp. In the case of bi-amping it's the point where the signal leaves the pre-amp.
When I got my SuperNait (had previously been bi-amping and therefore had 4 lengths of Atlas Hyper 2.0) my dealer's advice was to use each length with both conductors combined into a single banana plug for each terminal, effectively turning it into Hyper 4.0.
I haven't actually tried it in bi-wire configuration with the SuperNait, so can't claim a direct comparison, but I can't argue with the results.
However when bi-wiring or bi-amping something else is happening which can potentially cause a difference. Although it might not seem possible on the face of it, only the high frequencies flow along the cables connected to the HF terminals and only the low frequencies flow along the cables attached to the LF terminals. That's because as electricity flows through the electrical circuit in this case it is basically a flow of electrons from positive terminal on the amp to the negative terminal on the amp. Because there is a filter in it's path (for HF the cross-over is screening out low frequencies and vice versa) electrons flowing at frequencies that are not allowed to pass by the cross-over never complete the circuit.
In the case of bi-wiring the separation of signals is from the point where the cables are connected to the amp. In the case of bi-amping it's the point where the signal leaves the pre-amp.
Can somebody refer to electrical diagrams of normal, bi-wired and bi-amped connections, spanning from the amp(s) outputs up to the speaker drive units?
Tarquinh:You're right, it doesn't seem possible. Can you point me to some research which backs this up?
I can't point to any research and I don't want to be the cause of this turning into 'another one of those threads' (not that I'm suggesting you'd contribute to that either :0) ) so I'm not going to push this one. For me personally though knowing what electricity is and knowing what the cross-over of a speaker in combination with the speaker driver does, it just seems elementary.
I can't point to any research and I don't want to be the cause of this turning into 'another one of those threads' (not that I'm suggesting you'd contribute to that either :0) ) so I'm not going to push this one. For me personally though knowing what electricity is and knowing what the cross-over of a speaker in combination with the speaker driver does, it just seems elementary.
I have never really looked into it in any detail. And certainly would not push any point of view on people. I can state my opinion though:
if both wires in bi-wiring lead to the same crossover then I would not bother to even think about it. in bi-amping it is unsafe electrically.
if wires lead to isolated different parts of the crossover, then:
- for bi-wiring I would still not bother as it is the same signal still arriving to both i.e. single wiring would do the same
- for bi-amping - worth a furhter look
if both wires in bi-wiring lead to the same crossover then I would not bother to even think about it. in bi-amping it is unsafe electrically.
if wires lead to isolated different parts of the crossover, then:
- for bi-wiring I would still not bother as it is the same signal still arriving to both i.e. single wiring would do the same
- for bi-amping - worth a furhter look
If it was bi-amping leading to the same crossover then I think you would have blown up your amps LOL :0)
If I understand electricity as my GCSE physics teacher taught it to me - and let me say that I am more than open to being corrected by someone who knows better if it turns out that I don't understand it! - then (assuming a split cross-over designed for bi-wire/amping) it's the combination of the crossover and the driver which govern the frequencies at which electrons can flow through the circuit - that's what stops all the LF information blowing your tweeter up for example.
If I understand electricity as my GCSE physics teacher taught it to me - and let me say that I am more than open to being corrected by someone who knows better if it turns out that I don't understand it! - then (assuming a split cross-over designed for bi-wire/amping) it's the combination of the crossover and the driver which govern the frequencies at which electrons can flow through the circuit - that's what stops all the LF information blowing your tweeter up for example.
Dan Turner:
If it was bi-amping leading to the same crossover then I think you would have blown up your amps LOL :0)
True. post edited.
If it was bi-amping leading to the same crossover then I think you would have blown up your amps LOL :0)
True. post edited.
Tarquinh:biwiring can detract from the sound, if you believe Spendor
Exactly - I think it's highly dubious as to whether bi-wiring is really better in most circumstances. I'm a firm believer that a better single-wire cable is the way to go.
And whilst bi-amping is obviously well proven to be a significant improvement, I still think that a better integrated amp can trump it for the same money.
It's all dependent on so many factors there's no hard and fast rule.
Exactly - I think it's highly dubious as to whether bi-wiring is really better in most circumstances. I'm a firm believer that a better single-wire cable is the way to go.
And whilst bi-amping is obviously well proven to be a significant improvement, I still think that a better integrated amp can trump it for the same money.
It's all dependent on so many factors there's no hard and fast rule.
SteveR750
Well-known member
Dan Turner:
SteveR750:Hmm, I can why bi-amping might work, as you are presenting a different load to the amp, and therefore making it possibly easier drive accurately. Bi-wiring doesn't change anything other than the cable resistance, which a thicker core wold also achieve at probably reduced increase in capacitance.
When I got my SuperNait (had previously been bi-amping and therefore had 4 lengths of Atlas Hyper 2.0) my dealer's advice was to use each length with both conductors combined into a single banana plug for each terminal, effectively turning it into Hyper 4.0.
I haven't actually tried it in bi-wire configuration with the SuperNait, so can't claim a direct comparison, but I can't argue with the results.
However when bi-wiring or bi-amping something else is happening which can potentially cause a difference. Although it might not seem possible on the face of it, only the high frequencies flow along the cables connected to the HF terminals and only the low frequencies flow along the cables attached to the LF terminals. That's because as electricity flows through the electrical circuit in this case it is basically a flow of electrons from positive terminal on the amp to the negative terminal on the amp. Because there is a filter in it's path (for HF the cross-over is screening out low frequencies and vice versa) electrons flowing at frequencies that are not allowed to pass by the cross-over never complete the circuit.
In the case of bi-wiring the separation of signals is from the point where the cables are connected to the amp. In the case of bi-amping it's the point where the signal leaves the pre-amp.
Theory is OK for bi-amping where yes the x-over will eliminate part of the freqiuency range and therefore load on the amp output stage. In bi-wiring, since both cables are attached to the same output terminals on the amp it has no effect, simply a different signal in each cable, which doesnt explain why there SHOULD be a difference. Doesn't mean there isn't of course.
SteveR750:Hmm, I can why bi-amping might work, as you are presenting a different load to the amp, and therefore making it possibly easier drive accurately. Bi-wiring doesn't change anything other than the cable resistance, which a thicker core wold also achieve at probably reduced increase in capacitance.
When I got my SuperNait (had previously been bi-amping and therefore had 4 lengths of Atlas Hyper 2.0) my dealer's advice was to use each length with both conductors combined into a single banana plug for each terminal, effectively turning it into Hyper 4.0.
I haven't actually tried it in bi-wire configuration with the SuperNait, so can't claim a direct comparison, but I can't argue with the results.
However when bi-wiring or bi-amping something else is happening which can potentially cause a difference. Although it might not seem possible on the face of it, only the high frequencies flow along the cables connected to the HF terminals and only the low frequencies flow along the cables attached to the LF terminals. That's because as electricity flows through the electrical circuit in this case it is basically a flow of electrons from positive terminal on the amp to the negative terminal on the amp. Because there is a filter in it's path (for HF the cross-over is screening out low frequencies and vice versa) electrons flowing at frequencies that are not allowed to pass by the cross-over never complete the circuit.
In the case of bi-wiring the separation of signals is from the point where the cables are connected to the amp. In the case of bi-amping it's the point where the signal leaves the pre-amp.
Theory is OK for bi-amping where yes the x-over will eliminate part of the freqiuency range and therefore load on the amp output stage. In bi-wiring, since both cables are attached to the same output terminals on the amp it has no effect, simply a different signal in each cable, which doesnt explain why there SHOULD be a difference. Doesn't mean there isn't of course.
SteveR750
Well-known member
Dan Turner:
Tarquinh:biwiring can detract from the sound, if you believe Spendor
Exactly - I think it's highly dubious as to whether bi-wiring is really better in most circumstances. I'm a firm believer that a better single-wire cable is the way to go.
And whilst bi-amping is obviously well proven to be a significant improvement, I still think that a better integrated amp can trump it for the same money.
It's all dependent on so many factors there's no hard and fast rule.
+1
Mono blocs!
Tarquinh:biwiring can detract from the sound, if you believe Spendor
Exactly - I think it's highly dubious as to whether bi-wiring is really better in most circumstances. I'm a firm believer that a better single-wire cable is the way to go.
And whilst bi-amping is obviously well proven to be a significant improvement, I still think that a better integrated amp can trump it for the same money.
It's all dependent on so many factors there's no hard and fast rule.
+1
Mono blocs!
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