Best Speakers

[relocated]

At least JC and Oldric are having a debate, this comment and David's are simply designed to aggravate and provoke people.

Merely pointing out the two/three times the cost thing is a comment intended to be negative towards hi-fi dealers, and is supposed to reinforce the value aspect of the product. As has already been pointed out, there's extra costs involved when not going through a dealer. If a direct seller decides to sell through a dealer, the costs are reduced.

So David, please give an example of this cost reduction, as seen by the purchaser.

For example, if a dealer sells a pair of speakers for the recommended price of £2000; what is the buy in price by the dealer?

I wonder if it might be @ half that £2000? That sounds like a real good deal for the man-in-the-street, much better than buying direct and cutting out the dealer and distributer.

 

[chebby]

If I made a product that could be sold in a shop for £2000 - but decided instead to sell direct and cut out shops completely - I would also sell it for £2000.

If I could get away with convincing my direct sales customers that it would cost £3500 - if sold from a high street shop - all the better.

Everyone then thinks they are a winner (and everyone thinks I am a damned fine chap for cutting out those pesky, money grubbing dealers and saving them a bundle).

I make twice the money and the customer thinks I am a hero.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

If there was ever a point to this thread it has long been lost becaise a few wish to use it for their own biggotted crusade. Best without them. This is usually a friendly & helpful forum. Get real guys!

 

[The_Lhc]

This is usually a friendly & helpful forum.

Hmm, nearly four years, who'd have thought it...

 

[JMacMan]

If there was ever a point to this thread it has long been lost becaise a few wish to use it for their own biggotted crusade. Best without them. This is usually a friendly & helpful forum. Get real guys!

Quite

The pantheon of brands or designs deserving of the title 'best speaker' seems rather narrow and limited for some unkown reason....

JMac

 

[atticus]

What are your speakers, lindsayt?

The speakers that I've got that JCBrum is the least likely to have heard are Bozak Symphonys and EV Patrician 800's.

Thank you, I've now looked them up. Very substantial! I think I'd need a bigger room for these!

 

[atticus]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

I really didn't and it can be of no suprise as it would not be of the slightest interest to me. If it's your thing, then that's fine.

So do people actually move their own hifi kit to some type of convention?

Why? Is it a competition or something, maybe like auto ICE competitions to see has the loudest system?

Overdose

People go to these shows/conventions because they are proud of what they have, built etc and want to show off. They enjoy swapping and changing/sharing the experience and it is part of this hobby, one thing certain folks over at AVI dont understand. Nothing worse than an ex-smoker. - Problem is of course, it doesn't end there and many AVI owners are by their own admittance prolific ex-box swappers and carry on doing so ... just within the AVI portfolio.

I dont knock them, I heard how good the ADM's are and can only assume their newer designs build on that but box swapping or whatever you want to call it will always be a large part of this hobby for many. Its AVI's unique selling point to call everybody else in the industry 'legacy'. It seems to work for them and long it may continue.

regards

I can totally understand individuals being proud of their possessions and their achievements, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I am having difficulty understanding why someone would bother moving an entire hifi system half way across the country just to show it off.

I have some very nice artwork hanging on my walls at home, but don't feel the need to periodically take them down and cart them off to some sort of picture meet, so that everyone else can see how much I've spent or see just how lovely they all look (subjectively).

I have a picture in my mind of people putting down little white box outlines on the floor at home so that the equipment goes back exactly where it came from. Envisage a crime scene with the white outline of a dead dude on the floor.

Surely, there must be some other point to it all, but it escapes me.

As far as box swapping goes, again, all understood if that's what interests you and it makes you happy, then why not?

I think it's like stamp collecting, trainspotting or Morris dancing (and I'm not being fatuous, by the way) - the people who do these things don't think they are being sad, it's just 'their thing', and they enjoy doing it. Not everyone else 'gets it' and some will actively mock these (and other) hobbies. If someone wants to unpick their hifi and drive it across the country to play it to like-minded people, then why not? It is good to have a hobby and it gets them out of the house! And it also gives them the opportunity to Dust Behind the Stereo once in a while.

Whatever floats your boat, that's what I say.....

 

[Frank Harvey]

So David, please give an example of this cost reduction, as seen by the purchaser.

For example, if a dealer sells a pair of speakers for the recommended price of £2000; what is the buy in price by the dealer?

I wonder if it might be @ half that £2000? That sounds like a real good deal for the man-in-the-street, much better than buying direct and cutting out the dealer and distributer.

Chebby raised a very good point in reply to your post. I do know of a distributor that decided to sell direct as well as supply his dealers - of course he had to keep the pricing up so as not to piss off the dealers, but then you have a distributor making two profit margins. Win win for the distributor, who continues to sell at his double profit margin.

And not all products need a distributor - sometimes it is cheaper for a manufacturer to sell their products through a distributor rather than to pay two or three reps to get out on the road and sell direct to the dealer.

And as for profit margins, 100% would be nice, but unfortunately we don't sell designer clothes, furniture or jewellery. Manufacturers can't afford to price their products too highly nowadays, as price can make or break a product.

 

[atticus]

And all this from a first post with nothing but a straight line in the box!

 

[Ajani]

If there was ever a point to this thread it has long been lost becaise a few wish to use it for their own biggotted crusade. Best without them. This is usually a friendly & helpful forum. Get real guys!

Actually, I suspect the problem is that there was NEVER a point to this thread. The OP has one post (just a title - not even a question). I strongly suspect the OP was just trolling.... and looking at the number of replies, it clearly worked.

 

[jjbomber]

And all this from a first post with nothing but a straight line in the box!

Even better, it is the one and only post that the person has made UNDER THAT NAME.. A nice intro for JCBrum to copy and paste the advertising photos from the AVI website no less. Isn't this against the forum rules? Add in the flow of single posts lately from people wanting to spend £1.250 on bookshelf speakers, and it's not too difficult to work out what is happening on here.

 

[atticus]

And all this from a first post with nothing but a straight line in the box!

Even better, it is the one and only post that the person has made UNDER THAT NAME.. A nice intro for JCBrum to copy and paste the advertising photos from the AVI website no less. Isn't this against the forum rules? Add in the flow of single posts lately from people wanting to spend £1.250 on bookshelf speakers, and it's not too difficult to work out what is happening on here.

Forgive me, jjbomber, but you seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about AVI. If they bother you that much, why give them the oxygen of publicity?

 

[lindsayt]

How about you answer my question first,

Don't you think, lindsayt, that loudspeaker drive unit design has made any progress towards better fidelity in the last fifty years ?

JC

What, so whether you want to compare my speaker against yours or not depends upon whether I answer your question or not?

What sort of nonsense is this? You either want to compare speakers or you don't?

It's only hi-fi we're talking about here. Nothing serious. Just like mates talking down the pub about their favourite football teams.

You reckon you've got the best team in the history of the world in your ADM 40's. I'm just trying to arrange a friendly match between your team and my team made up of a few stars from yesteryear. No big deal. No fuss.

Coming back to your question about whether speaker drivers have improved over the last 50 years or not? Well I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I'm not sure that anyone in the world is. It's too open. Too general. Exactly what drivers do we need to compare against what in order to make a decision on this question? Budget? Mainstream? Mid-range hi-fi? Top of the range? The best from each era?

And personally I don't think hi-fi is that simple. I've not come across any hi-fi product, especially speakers that are best at everything. There's always soemthing else that is better in at least one sonic respect. I can't be dogmatic about hi-fi. I can't be absolutist. All I can say is which products I prefer to which other products and why.

Maybe speaker drivers have improved over the last 50 years. Maybe they haven't. I haven't compared enough to say one way or the other. So far I've not found any evidence that they have. You obviously feel that they have. Well, lets get our speakers together to see if you're right.

 

[AEJim]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

 

[CnoEvil]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Ah, but if there was a room just big enough for the wardrobe, and just small enough for the bedside table......which would be better? :shifty:

Nb. Rhetorical Question.

 

[Helmut80]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Are you saying a small standmount in a small room can sound just as good as a 5 ft speaker in a suitably large room?

 

[AEJim]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Ah, but if there was a room just big enough for the wardrobe, and just small enough for the bedside table......which would be better? :shifty:

Nb. Rhetorical Question.

You could always put the smaller speaker in the wardrobe and, by Audiophile math (where every tweak and alteration can only improve and not degrade performance of a thoroughly tested and engineered design) you would end up with an Ultra-speaker that surpasses all others...

 

[CnoEvil]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Ah, but if there was a room just big enough for the wardrobe, and just small enough for the bedside table......which would be better? :shifty:

Nb. Rhetorical Question.

You could always put the smaller speaker in the wardrobe and, by Audiophile math (where every tweak and alteration can only improve and not degrade performance of a thoroughly tested and engineered design) you would end up with an Ultra-speaker that surpasses all others...

Good thinking Batman.

You could call it the Matryoshka Speaker System............I'll do the PR if you make the speakers! :roll:

 

[Frank Harvey]

Are you saying a small standmount in a small room can sound just as good as a 5 ft speaker in a suitably large room?

Yes, comparing like for like quality wise. Sometimes better. The big speakers will be exhibiting excessive, boomy bass because they're too big for the room, swamping the mid and higher frequencies, whereas the smaller standmounts won't, sounding tighter and more detailed

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you saying a small standmount in a small room can sound just as good as a 5 ft speaker in a suitably large room?

Yes, comparing like for like quality wise. Sometimes better. The big speakers will be exhibiting excessive, boomy bass because they're too big for the room, swamping the mid and higher frequencies, whereas the smaller standmounts won't, sounding tighter and more detailed

I think he was asking if a small speaker in a suitably small room, could sound as well as a big speaker, in a suitably big room......imo you are right if the speaker is too big for the room.

 

[Frank Harvey]

And again, generally, yes.

 

[jjbomber]

Forgive me, jjbomber, but you seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about AVI. If they bother you that much, why give them the oxygen of publicity?

Of course I forgive you. No bee in my bonnet, so let me explain.

I know a scam when I see one and I don't like it at all. You may have come across the saying ''Stand for something or you'll fall for anything''. I am making a stand against the hi-jacking of the forum.

 

[AEJim]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Are you saying a small standmount in a small room can sound just as good as a 5 ft speaker in a suitably large room?

Yes, as David has also pointed out, there are strengths and weaknesses to all loudspeaker designs, there is no universally "better" solution with current technology.

If you are saying the best speaker would always be the bigger one in the right room then where do you draw the line? While that 5 foot speaker may be impressive in a larger living room it would sound pathetic at Wembley stadium. By that logic the best speaker would be a full-blown PA rig, it would lack some fidelity but be far better for purpose.

Smaller speakers can image and respond faster than many larger ones though electrostatics are relatively big and arguably do those things better, but they lack the punch of a dynamic driver and couldn't compete with a large horn-loaded design for efficiency & volume level, but horn speakers can lack subtlety and refinement etc etc etc... You can write pages and pages on all the pros and cons of the various speaker types and arrangements but that's why so many options still exist - there is no universally better speaker.

 

[CnoEvil]

And again, generally, yes.

Apologies..........by talking about a big speaker in too small a room, you threw me off track.

 

[lindsayt]

On the subject of which speaker is better, subjective assesment aside you can really only compare like for like in terms of size and placement options. The smaller speaker will beat the wardrobe-sized one no problem in a 7' x 5' spare room but the wardrobe would most likely work better in a hall. There can simply never be a "best speaker" as the room interaction is such a huge part of the sound that it will always depend on how they and where they are used.

Surely that would depend upon which smaller speaker you're comparing against which wardrobe sized speaker? And on what was important to you in hi-fi reproduction? Which wardrobe sized speakers have you compared against which smaller speakers in 7' x 5' rooms?

If you had wardrobe sized speaker placed against the 5' wall it would be rather silly as the inside edges would be touching each other. That sized room with huge speakers is a little extreme.

For sure wardrobe speakers are not nearfield monitors. You'd get tonal abberations. But then you tend to get tonal abberations with small speakers anyway - usually mainly due to early bass roll-off / limitations in getting 2 drivers to cover the entire frequency spectrum.

The assumption that you get boomy bass with very large speakers in small rooms is inaccurate. It depends on the speakers, and the room furnishing.

I do totally agree that there is no such thing as a "best" sounding speaker. Electrostatics can do things in the midrange that conventional cones and domes don't. Large lightweight cones in large sealed enclosures do things in the bass that electrostatics and small speakers don't. High efficiency compression drivers do things with dynamics, especially at generous volumes that conventional cones and domes and electrostatics don't. This is all based on the particular speakers that I've heard so far.