Best Speakers

[jcbrum]

Bozak Symphonys are an early sixties design, which have no acoustic suspension. Most other manufacturers introduced acoustic suspension for the driver cone from the late fifties onwards, and it became an almost universal feature.

Don't you think, lindsayt, that loudspeaker drive unit design has made any progress towards better fidelity in the last fifty years ?

JC

 

[lindsayt]

JCBrum am I take to your lack of answer to my question on your whereabouts on 2nd and 3rd of March to mean that you don't want to compare your AVI ADM 40's against my speakers?

Am I also right in thinking that you've never heard my speakers and that your statement that the ADM 40's have better drivers than my speakers is therefore not based on any first hand experience on your part? So, you think that the ADM 40's have better drivers than some other speaker that you've never heard? And it would seem that you don't even wish to hear these other speakers to find out if your statement was correct or not?

 

[steve_1979]

wow, you really need 25 years of experience to put together some OEM drivers and a few planks of wood? any decent DIYer (I mean no disrespect to any DIYer) could do that with a few days of making preparations. but they needed 25 years to design a wooden box with two holes and then buy some drivers from ScanSpeak? well done AVI!

I'm not an expert in speaker design but I'm pretty certain that there was a lot more involved in designing the ADM40's than you suggest.

It's not just a case of designing the enclosure and selecting the drivers (which in itself would have taken a considerable amount of research and time). There's also the designing of the pre-amplifier, the power-amplifiers, the active crossovers, the implementation of the DAC and getting it all to work together. All this and it also needs pass safety regulations and be tested for reliability.

I have no idea whether or not the ADM40's are the best speakers in the world. But I'm pretty sure that they're better than your average DIYer could build.

 

[jcbrum]

Ditto Lindsay and wardrobes.

:rofl:

Incidentally, I took the OP literally, which, had they used a question mark, might have been seeking views on the best speakers, bar none. I've never heard AVIs but it seems slightly implausible they are the best possible. Don't tell Magico, David Wilson or the Sonus faber people! [to name just three]

Indeed it was Lindsay who early on challenged what question might have been intended.

I auditioned well over 50 pairs of loudspeakers before I bought my AVI's, and I think you can put them up against some very expensive ones indeed.

As a matter of fact, personally, I don't think a high price is any guarantee whatsoever of sonic performance, once you get above the 'run of the mill' cheap stuff.

I compared some Wilson Benesch, recently, and thought they were pretty dreadful.

JC

 

[jcbrum]

I don't want to take my loudspeakers to the Melton Mowbray show, lindsayt, but if I do decide to go I shall listen to your particular speakers with interest.

Thanks for the offer. I'm also interested in old professional turntables, which is an interest you share, irrc.

JC

 

[lindsayt]

Bozak Symphonys are an early sixties design, which have no acoustic suspension. Most other manufacturers introduced acoustic suspension for the driver cone from the late fifties onwards, and it became an almost universal feature.

Don't you think, lindsayt, that loudspeaker drive unit design has made any progress towards better fidelity in the last fifty years ?

JC

JC here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry for Acoustic Suspension speakers:

"

The acoustic-suspension woofer (sometimes known as “air suspension”) uses the elastic cushion of air within a sealed enclosure to provide the restoring force for the woofer diaphragm.

Unlike the stiff suspension of conventional speakers, the trapped air inside the sealed-loudspeaker enclosure provides a more linear restoring force for the woofer's diaphragm, enabling it to oscillate a greater distance (excursion) in a linear fashion. This is a requirement for clean reproduction of deep-bass tones by drivers with relatively small cones (e.g. smaller than 12-16 inches in diameter) not mounted in a horn or similar for increased coupling at low frequencies enclosure. Acoustic suspension cabinets are not entirely airtight. A small amount of airflow must be allowed so the speaker can adjust to changes in atmospheric pressure."

The Bozak Symphonys use two 12" bass drivers per cabinet. So, according to the wiki entry, acoustic suspension does not apply to them. With that cone size they move much less (6.7 times less) than a single 6.5" cone.

Also, the problemn with acoustic suspension is transient response. The air acts as a spring reducing transient response. Put the speaker cones in a large enough cabinet and the spring effect from the air is minimal.

Now JCBrum, can you please explain to me how bass distortion and bass transient response has improved in the last 50 years when you compare AVI ADM 40's against Bozak Symphonys, from a theoretical point of view?

And of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Or in the case of hi-fi in the listening - which you apparently don't want to do?

 

[lindsayt]

I don't want to take my loudspeakers to the Melton Mowbray show, lindsayt, but if I do decide to go I shall listen to your particular speakers with interest.

Thanks for the offer. I'm also interested in old professional turntables, which is an interest you share, irrc.

JC

My speakers will be in a large van that week-end. I can pop by your place on my way to or from Scalford.

 

[jcbrum]

How about you answer my question first,

Don't you think, lindsayt, that loudspeaker drive unit design has made any progress towards better fidelity in the last fifty years ?

JC

 

[chebby]

It's not just a case of designing the enclosure...

Superficially at least, the cabinets appear to be based on the old AVI Duos.

(Slightly scaled up presumably to allow for the internal volume taken up by the ADM40s amplifiers.)

 

[steve_1979]

It's not just a case of designing the enclosure...

Superficially at least, the cabinets appear to be based on the old AVI Duos.

(Slightly scaled up presumably to allow for the internal volume taken up by the ADM40s amplifiers.)

I think Ashley said the ADM40 enclosure volume and ports are built to Scanspeaks recommendation for the Illuminator driver. The styling seems to mimic the old Duo, Trio, and Brio speakers.

AVI Duo clicky

AVI Trio clicky

AVI Brio clicky

 

[Exoticsounds]

More and more companies are now releasing "multi-function" products in 1 box, like for instance ROTEL RA12 (£599) , this does in many ways play a factor when discussing value for money.

For instance a Rotel RA12 paired with Dynaudio Excite X32 (£1599) would give a highly capable system for £2198.

Atleast for moderate listing levels this is a set-up that should easily compete with something like ADM40 (£3250).

 

[Overdose]

I was referring to you saying 'Is that the best you can come back with Overdose?' That was very childish also.

Well it wasn't a great comeback was it. I mean:

What I would like to know is (genuinely) why anyone would take their speakers (or any other hifi equipment for that matter) anywhere other than their own home to listen to? What's that all about? Does this really happen?

The whole concept of moving a hifi system to some sort of convention seems rather bizarre to me. Is this what you consider normal?

Yes, he knows it does! It happens every year!!

I really didn't (seriously), but certainly do now and I'm sorry if it offends, but in the context of some peoples comments about 'cult' status, I find this statement hilariously ironic and rather hypocritical. It reminds me of Cosplay conventions, the fantasy element is obviously there in spades, but without the hot chic outfits.

Sounds like a riot. :roll:

Anyway, I was actually asking for jjbombers answers to his own rhetorical (?) questions.

Best Speakers? For what and whom?

Mine, for me.

Is that better Frank?

 

[Frank Harvey]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

 

[steve_1979]

The whole concept of moving a hifi system to some sort of convention seems rather bizarre to me. Is this what you consider normal

That sounds quite interesting to me. Though I admit that I'm far from normal. :shifty:

 

[WinterRacer]

Instead of the usual argy bargy whenever AVI get mentioned, how about constructive comments about what you think is the ideal speaker design and the speaker that’s closest to it? It might be more interesting?

Some may well prefer passive speakers and that's find, but for me, they'd have to be active. Now I've become aware of it, I find bass boom and mushy midrange of most passive speakers to be a trade-off I don't want in my speakers.

AVI and B&W appear to agree that mounting the mid and tweeter in a small box aids dispersion. B&W do this by mounting their mid & tweeter on top of the bass drivers, AVI do it by giving the option of a separate sub. I think I prefer the AVI approach, as it's more flexible. I started with the sub, but now find I don't need it.

I'd also like to hear Genelec's 8260A (10", 5", 1" drivers and DSP for ~ £7000) to hear what well implemented DSP does to the sound.

I've not heard any planar speakers in about 10 years, so I'd also like to hear some SOTA electrostatics or ribbons as I seem to remember them sounding pretty good.

I wouldn't mind taking my ADM40s and sub to the pie show, but it's too far for me plus I think many people would only want to hear them so they can say how rubbish they are.

 

[hoopsontoast]

I prefer Open Baffle speakers. Moving coil DIY ones, as well as Planar/Electrostatic such as the Quad 57, Apogee models and the Magnepan MMG.

I have found that for bass speed, accuracy and control, as well as soundstage and life like presentation they are unbeatable in these areas.

They may not be for everyone, and given the space they need a little to work with and some are a little fussy with regards to amplification (although that is not necessarily expensive, just has to be well designed).

But most of them dont look very pretty so people will go with lifestyle sized speakers that fit in their rooms, which is fair to be honest as most people, including me, dont have quite enough space for them.

 

[Electro]

The cabinet technology developed breaks with the traditional and cost-efficient loudspeaker enclosures of thick, heavy wood based enclosure walls. We believe a cabinet should be made of a thin, light, stiff material, shaped with spherical surfaces. Spherical surfaces are very important as it increases the stiffness hundreds of times compared to the flat and tenfold compared to extruded aluminium profiles.

The reason for our search for thin, light, stiff enclosures is based on the following: Hi frequency resonances, as those found in light and stiff materials, are much easier to muffle. We combine the outer 7 mm cast aluminum wall with a heavy dead muffler sandwich on the inside. Our muffling method is basically the same as the ones used in aircraft to enable the passengers leave the plane with their ears intact - which actually is quite remarkable considering that they have been sitting only a few meters away from one of the strongest sound producers made by man - a large jet engine.

To improve this method even further we pre-tension the complete enclosure with pushrods loaded with 2500N. The absorbers inside the enclosure are shaped as wedges, preventing reflections from the sound waves reaching the rear side of the elements.
Technical specifications
Design: Three-way infinite baffle loading Frequency response: 28 - 35000 Hz ±2dB Sensitivity: 90 dB, re 2.83V @ 1m Nominal impedance: 6 Ohm Dimensions Width: 36 cm / 14.2 inches Depth: 52 cm / 20.48 inches Height: 108 cm / 42.52 inches Weight: 75 kg. / 165.35 lbs
The Electrocompaniet Nordic Tone Model 1

One of the best I have heard

 

[Overdose]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

I really didn't and it can be of no suprise as it would not be of the slightest interest to me. If it's your thing, then that's fine.

So do people actually move their own hifi kit to some type of convention?

Why? Is it a competition or something, maybe like auto ICE competitions to see has the loudest system?

 

[drummerman]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

I really didn't and it can be of no suprise as it would not be of the slightest interest to me. If it's your thing, then that's fine.

So do people actually move their own hifi kit to some type of convention?

Why? Is it a competition or something, maybe like auto ICE competitions to see has the loudest system?

Overdose

People go to these shows/conventions because they are proud of what they have, built etc and want to show off. They enjoy swapping and changing/sharing the experience and it is part of this hobby, one thing certain folks over at AVI dont understand. Nothing worse than an ex-smoker. - Problem is of course, it doesn't end there and many AVI owners are by their own admittance prolific ex-box swappers and carry on doing so ... just within the AVI portfolio.

I dont knock them, I heard how good the ADM's are and can only assume their newer designs build on that but box swapping or whatever you want to call it will always be a large part of this hobby for many. Its AVI's unique selling point to call everybody else in the industry 'legacy'. It seems to work for them and long it may continue.

regards

 

[Overdose]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

I really didn't and it can be of no suprise as it would not be of the slightest interest to me. If it's your thing, then that's fine.

So do people actually move their own hifi kit to some type of convention?

Why? Is it a competition or something, maybe like auto ICE competitions to see has the loudest system?

Overdose

People go to these shows/conventions because they are proud of what they have, built etc and want to show off. They enjoy swapping and changing/sharing the experience and it is part of this hobby, one thing certain folks over at AVI dont understand. Nothing worse than an ex-smoker. - Problem is of course, it doesn't end there and many AVI owners are by their own admittance prolific ex-box swappers and carry on doing so ... just within the AVI portfolio.

I dont knock them, I heard how good the ADM's are and can only assume their newer designs build on that but box swapping or whatever you want to call it will always be a large part of this hobby for many. Its AVI's unique selling point to call everybody else in the industry 'legacy'. It seems to work for them and long it may continue.

regards

I can totally understand individuals being proud of their possessions and their achievements, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I am having difficulty understanding why someone would bother moving an entire hifi system half way across the country just to show it off.

I have some very nice artwork hanging on my walls at home, but don't feel the need to periodically take them down and cart them off to some sort of picture meet, so that everyone else can see how much I've spent or see just how lovely they all look (subjectively).

I have a picture in my mind of people putting down little white box outlines on the floor at home so that the equipment goes back exactly where it came from. Envisage a crime scene with the white outline of a dead dude on the floor.

Surely, there must be some other point to it all, but it escapes me.

As far as box swapping goes, again, all understood if that's what interests you and it makes you happy, then why not?

 

[hoopsontoast]

It's David

I'm not sure how many forums you participate in, but the ones that I do have mentions shows like these many times, including the main one you frequent. So apologies if you really didn't know, but i find that hard to believe that you're not aware of them

I really didn't and it can be of no suprise as it would not be of the slightest interest to me. If it's your thing, then that's fine.

So do people actually move their own hifi kit to some type of convention?

Why? Is it a competition or something, maybe like auto ICE competitions to see has the loudest system?

Its to share what you have with other people, its a great opportunity to hear stuff you would not usually hear at a dealer or commercial show as there is a big mix of classic, diy and modern kit. No agendas and no people trying to sell you marketing guff.

Its a good palce to meet, chat and share music with like minded people who are exhibitng kit that they have bought with their own money.

There was a pair of AVI ADM9.1 IIRC at the first or second show, for example, that is when I have heard them. It shows its a good chance to hear stuff you would not ususally go to hear, or available at dealers.

Overall its just good fun.

Its similar to the niche car shows, no one is going there to buy a car, people are exhibiting their pride and joys that they can, for one day a year or so share with people who whould not be able to see/hear/watch it drive. Goodwood festival of speed for example.

 

[drummerman]

I can totally understand individuals being proud of their possessions and their achievements, absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I am having difficulty understanding why someone would bother moving an entire hifi system half way across the country just to show it off.

I have some very nice artwork hanging on my walls at home, but don't feel the need to periodically take them down and cart them off to some sort of picture meet, so that everyone else can see how much I've spent or see just how lovely they all look (subjectively).

I have a picture in my mind of people putting down little white box outlines on the floor at home so that the equipment goes back exactly where it came from. Envisage a crime scene with the white outline of a dead dude on the floor.

Surely, there must be some other point to it all, but it escapes me.

For the same reasons people like you and I are on hifi forums.

These shows take it one step further which to many is interesting enough to travel, display or just enjoy.

regards

 

[drummerman]

... but I think we can all get on with each other. Just a little bit of understanding, humility, willingness to sometimes concede and learn.

Most importantly no sweeping statements ... either way.

regards

 

[DocG]

... but I think we can all get on with each other. Just a little bit of understanding, humility, willingness to sometimes concede and learn.

Most importantly no sweeping statements ... either way.

regards

Oh DM, you're such a sensible, yet sensitive lady!

 

[drummerman]

Neither is a strong point of mine ... nor is humility.

There's an opening for a pope so I thought I'd practise a little in advance ...

regards