General Consensus On Subs In HiFi

[BiggaJ]

Since updating all my audio and visual equipment save for the Audio Physic Classic 15 Floor-standers which I just love, I've been reading a lot and watching many videos regarding subs. I've always been a die hard 2 speaker only guy and getting them to sound as good as possible with ever changing Hi-Fi components. I guess I've always seen subs as a need for AV enthusiasts to get excited about rather than people interested in Hi-Fi.

I cant recall what got me looking into this, most likely a random video on YouTube suddenly finding its way onto my screen. The one I watched most recently was John Darko and his review of the KEF KC62 which I think was posted by him some years ago. I then started looking at the connections on the rear of my Naim Nova PE and see that it has dedicated outs for a sub.

I have never felt the speakers I have are lacking in bass but I'm now wondering what gains can be had from such a device and how easy it is to integrate into my system. It appears my view on them being slow, cumbersome pieces of equipment is from the dark ages and the modern units are alive, fast and agile.

Thoughts please.

 

[RTHerringbone]

I'm in the "subs are for AV" camp. I've never thought that my setup lacks bass and I certainly don't want another box and another cable to worry about.

 

[Gray]

I'm (somewhat reluctantly) in the 'subs are only for detached houses' camp.
As it happens, I've recently taken delivery of a nice sub and cable (as a competition prize).

 

[Messiah]

Always use a sub for stereo.

Partially this is due to me generally using standmount speakers but additionally, a sub can produce bass I simply cannot get from an average floorstander. (Not to say they don't do a great job I just feel a sub does it better).

 

[daytona600]

Subwoofer or InfraBass
Subwoofers most never get near 20hz Subsonics with small 8/10inch drivers & small amps
Subs arrive in a box , Real Subs arrive on a Pallet
Multiple Subwoofers with 12/15/18inch drivers with Real 10/20hz extension will have a bigger change on
Soundstage , Imaging in the Mid/HF ranges on music with no bass at all

Full Range music Organ , EDM , Dub with multiple Sub Arrays Six or 12 Pack
no matter how large your main speakers are Once heard . Never forgotten

 

[abacus]

Unless you are really lucky if you set your speaker up for great midrange and imaging, the chances of the bass being accurate is small, likewise if you have your speakers set up for best bass you loose out on the midrange and imaging (This may or may not bother you), by adding a sub (Or preferably 2) you can get the bass to sound accurate with the speakers optimised for midrange and imaging as the sub(s) can be placed in the optimum position in the room to sort out the bass. (NOTE: If you use 2 subs don't put them too close together or you will get sound reinforcement rather than balancing the bass to the room)

Bill

 

[Al ears]

I'm (somewhat reluctantly) in the 'subs are only for detached houses' camp.
As it happens, I've recently taken delivery of a nice sub and cable (as a competition prize).

Perhaps.
I have a detached house and might consider a sub if I went back to using my EB Acoustic standmounts but not otherwise even though I do have one I am trying to sell.

 

[daytona600]

3hz you will need a 100inch 20,000watt Sub

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk1fZ89dvis&list=RDVk1fZ89dvis&start_radio=1

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4K7HYJ_Uhg

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

Not me. I’m a details fan. Smearing and sub bass to me sound awful……..

 

[Cricketbat70]

I've never been keen on the idea of a sub in a stereo system. I've always thought for me personally the base produced by my speakers was enough and I've heard subs in stereo systems where I thought the bass was overblown. Probably a set up issue.
I've mentioned this before in another thread, 25 years ago I bought from a work colleague, a very small paradigm sub for my AV system. I set it up found the scene in Star Trek Insurrection where they eject and blow up the warp core and tried it out. Rach was sat outside on our patio with some neighbours having a glass of wine and one of the neighbours said "What was that!!!!". Rach replied "Nick and his new toy"
She then said to me "I don't want you using that, we have neighbours if we lived in a detached house and not in the middle of a terrace row I wouldn't mind." So for 25 years that little paradigm sub was nothing more than a plant stand.
My son now has it in the cellar, we can feel and hear the bass up in the front room when he's watching a film. In his bedroom he also has that Monitor Audio sub and satellite speaker package Richer Sounds sell. I was impressed with that. It does a very good job of making the bass feel like it's not just coming from that one sub.

 

[BiggaJ]

I've never been keen on the idea of a sub in a stereo system. I've always thought for me personally the base produced by my speakers was enough and I've heard subs in stereo systems where I thought the bass was overblown. Probably a set up issue.
I've mentioned this before in another thread, 25 years ago I bought from a work colleague, a very small paradigm sub for my AV system. I set it up found the scene in Star Trek Insurrection where they eject and blow up the warp core and tried it out. Rach was sat outside on our patio with some neighbours having a glass of wine and one of the neighbours said "What was that!!!!". Rach replied "Nick and his new toy"
She then said to me "I don't want you using that, we have neighbours if we lived in a detached house and not in the middle of a terrace row I wouldn't mind." So for 25 years that little paradigm sub was nothing more than a plant stand.
My son now has it in the cellar, we can feel and hear the bass up in the front room when he's watching a film. In his bedroom he also has that Monitor Audio sub and satellite speaker package Richer Sounds sell. I was impressed with that. It does a very good job of making the bass feel like it's not just coming from that one sub.

Thank you ... This sums up what I have been thinking re subs. When tuned in correctly they should be heard and not seen but an amount of tuning is required to get to that point And I think this can be tiresome from what I've heard. Luckily I live in a detached house and so playing music at levels I want doesn't interfere with my neighbours. Like you, my wife doesn't want the added bass nor the music played too loud so I usually only play what I want when she's out.

I've been suckered into having a demo of the REL T7/X, I'm looking forward to it but really wanted to test the REL side by side with the KEF KC62 as this does look like a unit that I can hide away and forget about once set up. I'm still not sold but I am intrigued enough to go demo some subs to see if it scratches that itch.

 

[BiggaJ]

Not me. I’m a details fan. Smearing and sub bass to me sound awful……..

You echo my thoughts however, those that review/write/video blog about them claim when done properly the detail improves.

 

[Al ears]

Thank you ... This sums up what I have been thinking re subs. When tuned in correctly they should be heard and not seen but an amount of tuning is required to get to that point And I think this can be tiresome from what I've heard. Luckily I live in a detached house and so playing music at levels I want doesn't interfere with my neighbours. Like you, my wife doesn't want the added bass nor the music played too loud so I usually only play what I want when she's out.

I've been suckered into having a demo of the REL T7/X, I'm looking forward to it but really wanted to test the REL side by side with the KEF KC62 as this does look like a unit that I can hide away and forget about once set up. I'm still not sold but I am intrigued enough to go demo some subs to see if it scratches that itch.

Quite a price difference between the two. Like the look of the KEF though.
Unfortunately the only way to really audition them is in your own room with your own equipment.
Something not everyone can do.
I often think spending that much on a subwoofer and I may be better off simply upgrading my main speakers.
However that's just me.

 

[Gray]

You echo my thoughts however, those that review/write/video blog about them claim when done properly the detail improves.

I've seen those reviews where they find that HF is inexplicably improved.

I gave my newly acquired sub a brief test run - below a pair of small PMC standmounts.
As others have pointed out, it really is all about the setup - very easy to make LF sound horribly overblown and ruin the overall sound.
But, done correctly, I can understand why some never want to go back to being without one.

 

[The_Lecht_Rocks]

Alternatively, find a good dealer that will permit home speaker demos…….
Speaker selected for the room, amp selected for the speaker, source selected to suit the listener, sorted …….? No EQ, no treatments, no added extras…

 

[record_spot]

Added a subwoofer a couple of years ago. It's set just right and blends in seamlessly.

I used to think it'd be too much given the size of these things, but in fact it's precisely the opposite. Once the settings and volume level are set, it's good to go.

There's no boom, no thudding, or plodding bass overriding everything, like anything else, it's down to getting the balance right otherwise - like an overly aggressive tweeter - it throws the whole sound out.

 

[Fandango Andy]

Since updating all my audio and visual equipment save for the Audio Physic Classic 15 Floor-standers which I just love, I've been reading a lot and watching many videos regarding subs. I've always been a die hard 2 speaker only guy and getting them to sound as good as possible with ever changing Hi-Fi components. I guess I've always seen subs as a need for AV enthusiasts to get excited about rather than people interested in Hi-Fi.

I cant recall what got me looking into this, most likely a random video on YouTube suddenly finding its way onto my screen. The one I watched most recently was John Darko and his review of the KEF KC62 which I think was posted by him some years ago. I then started looking at the connections on the rear of my Naim Nova PE and see that it has dedicated outs for a sub.

I have never felt the speakers I have are lacking in bass but I'm now wondering what gains can be had from such a device and how easy it is to integrate into my system. It appears my view on them being slow, cumbersome pieces of equipment is from the dark ages and the modern units are alive, fast and agile.

Thoughts please.

John Darko is very pro sub, but then he listens to a lot of electronic music!

I have a 7.1 and a stereo system. I use the sub all the time in the AV setup, but have never felt the need with my stereo. I currently have relatively small speakers that only go down to 55Hz but am happy with them.

 

[freeagent]

Added a subwoofer a couple of years ago. It's set just right and blends in seamlessly.

I used to think it'd be too much given the size of these things, but in fact it's precisely the opposite. Once the settings and volume level are set, it's good to go.

There's no boom, no thudding, or plodding bass overriding everything, like anything else, it's down to getting the balance right otherwise - like an overly aggressive tweeter - it throws the whole sound out.

This is exactly how I have mine set up. I am using 2 subs, double the fun. I can feel it through my concrete floor and still hear everything else. I cannot speak for an AVR though, I was never really able to get music to sound good though it. Ok was about it.


Edit:

Technically 3 subs I guess, since my FB-210 has 2 10s lol.. and my other is a single 12.

 

[nopiano]

I’ve never used one at home for the hifi. I had a Denon and KEF AV system in early days of DVD with a sub and five satellites. It worked fine with that, especially with sound effects. Has never bothered me for hifi, even when I’ve had small speakers.

A pal has a large room with Quad ELS or MBL or German Physik speakers, and very successfully integrates a large sub. You only notice it if he turns it off. He very studiously uses Dirac, but it looks v time consuming to me. The results are great but I still enjoy it without.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

When set up correctly, they are an extension of the main speakers and work wonderfully. What they should do is take what you love about the system before adding, and bring that quality down into the low end. After all, when you pay money for an upgrade, there should only be benefits.

There are two things to overcome:

1) Set up, but we do that with our main speakers anyway.
2) Subwoofer quality - after all, a subwoofer is a speaker. We ask of it exactly what we ask for from a tweeter - great frequency response, great timing, low distortion and the ability to blend with the next driver in the series. We're just asking for that in a different frequency band, that's all.

 

[BiggaJ]

Thank you all for your replies. Like many, and as I’ve said before, subs in my mind were for the AV crowd rather than hi-fi. Times change, and quality clearly improves.

On Saturday I headed to Richer Sounds in Reading and spent some time with one of the sales guys looking at the REL T7/x. I also wanted to consider the KEF KC62, but they couldn’t get one in within my timescales. I did, however, spend about an hour listening to the REL paired with floor-standers that were very close in frequency response to my own speakers.

The demo room was a little smaller than my living room, but speaker placement, listening distance, and proximity to walls were all very similar.

We listened first with the sub switched off, then brought it in and adjusted volume and crossover settings as we went. The sub position stayed fixed throughout. Initially, the difference was obvious, but untuned it sounded rather overblown and clumsy. With some time and adjustment, though, it could be made to sound very sweet, and the timing was spot on.

Connectivity is interesting. The REL offers its Neutrik Speakon connection as well as the usual RCA option. My understanding is that RCA is more aimed at movie use, while the Speakon cable, taking its signal directly from the speaker outputs, is intended for hi-fi. In use, it worked extremely well. As far as I know, subs like the KEF rely solely on RCA.

It’s still a bit of a black art to me, but the longer I listened, the clearer the benefits became. At what my wife would call sensible volumes, the bass was present and expressive. Without the sub, the volume needs to be turned up to get similar bass weight from the floorstanders, which then affects the balance. With the sub in place, the mids and highs seemed to open up and breathe more.

In the end, I felt it was worth a punt and placed my order. Collection later today.

 

[freeagent]

Hi-Fi can be whatever you want it to be as long as it sounds good to you.

Facts.

 

[Gray]

Thank you all for your replies. Like many, and as I’ve said before, subs in my mind were for the AV crowd rather than hi-fi. Times change, and quality clearly improves.

On Saturday I headed to Richer Sounds in Reading and spent some time with one of the sales guys looking at the REL T7/x. I also wanted to consider the KEF KC62, but they couldn’t get one in within my timescales. I did, however, spend about an hour listening to the REL paired with floor-standers that were very close in frequency response to my own speakers.

The demo room was a little smaller than my living room, but speaker placement, listening distance, and proximity to walls were all very similar.

We listened first with the sub switched off, then brought it in and adjusted volume and crossover settings as we went. The sub position stayed fixed throughout. Initially, the difference was obvious, but untuned it sounded rather overblown and clumsy. With some time and adjustment, though, it could be made to sound very sweet, and the timing was spot on.

Connectivity is interesting. The REL offers its Neutrik Speakon connection as well as the usual RCA option. My understanding is that RCA is more aimed at movie use, while the Speakon cable, taking its signal directly from the speaker outputs, is intended for hi-fi. In use, it worked extremely well. As far as I know, subs like the KEF rely solely on RCA.

It’s still a bit of a black art to me, but the longer I listened, the clearer the benefits became. At what my wife would call sensible volumes, the bass was present and expressive. Without the sub, the volume needs to be turned up to get similar bass weight from the floorstanders, which then affects the balance. With the sub in place, the mids and highs seemed to open up and breathe more.

In the end, I felt it was worth a punt and placed my order. Collection later today.

Good for you 👍
(I like those Speakon connectors - even if their main advantage is less necessary with domestic stuff).

 

[Deliriumbassist]

On Saturday I headed to Richer Sounds in Reading and spent some time with one of the sales guys looking at the REL T7/x. I also wanted to consider the KEF KC62, but they couldn’t get one in within my timescales. I did, however, spend about an hour listening to the REL paired with floor-standers that were very close in frequency response to my own speakers.

The KC62 does have speaker level connections, just using a phoenix connector instead of a speaker (so you use whatever speaker cable you want).

Connectivity is interesting. The REL offers its Neutrik Speakon connection as well as the usual RCA option. My understanding is that RCA is more aimed at movie use, while the Speakon cable, taking its signal directly from the speaker outputs, is intended for hi-fi. In use, it worked extremely well. As far as I know, subs like the KEF rely solely on RCA.

Pure marketing. Firstly, a speaker/subwoofer has no idea what you are feeding it content wise. With the speaker level input, it draws so little power from the main amplifier that it's almost invisible. The choice between RCA and speaker level, if both are designed correctly, should be system/connectivity based.

In the end, I felt it was worth a punt and placed my order. Collection later today.

Congrats on your purchase.