B&W CM1 S2 Upgrade...

[CnoEvil]

It does go against the grain to be honest, I've always listened using direct mode too. But switching to stereo does give me more control, maybe that's a compromise for using an AV receiver

I find that initially having more control makes the sound more impressive....but on a closer listen, it doesn't sound as natural....this is particularly noticeable with voices and unmiked instruments like violin and piano.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I find 'direct' kills dynamics - the top end gets rounded off and the bass less deep, rounded up. The sound is flatter.

I have 3 amps and it's the same. Two are used for stereo.

A Rotel ra-1520 with tone defeat (direct) - I prefer this function off. The tone controls are set flat to '0' - to my ears it sounds better.

I also have an old receiver a Yamaha ax-620 - I do use DSP modes usually with old Jazz i.e Lee Morgan or Coltrane it sounds 'live' but usually run it with all effects off but it's running no sub only 2 channels - you'd have to hear it to hear how good it sounds. (I'd argue it sounds better than the Rotel and is far more flexible too)

The 3rd amp is a Yamaha ra-1020 which is about the same level as Robs Marantz but that's running a 5.1 set up exclusively.

That's a quality amp he's got and it's more than capable.

But ultimately my view is don't be afraid of the tone controls or the various DSP modes - a good quality sound can be achieved with a little experimenting - don't deny yourself because of the mutterings of 'purists'

Give it a try check all options available before spending extra cash..

 

[ROB2009]

KEF LS50's on demo.... Curiosity got the better of me!

 

[matthewpiano]

Speakers need positioning carefully and for most speakers that includes having them properly isolated on a good pair of stands that also raise them to the right height. Sticking a pair of CM1 S2 on a unit with little isolation, and positioned so close to walls is never going to let them perform to their best.

It will be interesting to hear how you get on with the KEFs, but I suspect you could go through lots of different speakers without joy unless you are able to address the positioning issues. If you really can't, then I'd suggest giving Neat Iotas a try.

 

[CnoEvil]

KEF LS50's on demo.... Curiosity got the better of me!

Good Man.

They work best Blu-Tak'd on Stands that have been 75% filled....and like MP has said, they ideally need room to breathe.

They should have surprising scale for their size, which can tip into boominess if too close to walls or corners. Mine can fill a room that's 15x21x11.

Now....what do you think?

 

[ROB2009]

Unfortunately, due to my room size and having to place them close to a wall, and on a unit not stands, they just don't have room to breathe. Even with the bungs in place, there is too much boom. I tried direct mode and stereo both with and without the sub, just couldn't get them to my liking...

I really wanted to like them but at least I know for sure they're not suited, the CM's sounded lovely when reconnected!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Is the bass directed to the sub only. I'm surprised you're still getting bass boom.

Nice to see you are getting better results with the CM's.

Have you tried removing the bass via the tone controls on the amp from the main speakers.

Using the volume on the sub only for bass?

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks, no I hadn't....

I've now taken the bass in the tone control right down as far as it will go, this has indeed made the bass clearer and I can trim the sub from the channel level adjust.

Progress makes me happy

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ok....

I'd still say adjust the sub via its volume control not via the amp. Set the sub level to max.
Now once you've adjusted the sub to give you 'thump' adjust the bass via the tone controls on the amp to fill out the lower midrange.

You may want to adjust the treble to taste via the tone controls too.

 

[ROB2009]

Sorry if I'm not getting it...

The sub volume is set by the receiver's Audyssey calibration for tv/movie viewing, if I change the volume on the sub for to music, then it won't be set correctly for movies?

I have already adjusted the treble in the tone controls to suit.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Bear with me - I'm not familiar with the Marantz. Going by my Yamaha.

While your amp will set a 'level' for the sub - this can be adjusted manually in the menus, the sub should have an independent volume control on it.

Once you have taken the bass off your mains via the tone controls you should be able to adjust the sub independently - if you have set LFE to sub only.

Use the tone controls to add timbre - small increments on the dial.

 

[ROB2009]

Finally decided to audition some more speakers at home....Summary so far
Kef LS50 - Far to overbearing for my room and placement options, too boomy and just don't have sufficient room to let them breathe. Also quite disappointed with the midrange, obviously not the right sound for me, a shame as I really wanted to like these. PMC Twenty 21 - Really showed up the differences in the quality of recordings, but again far too much bass. At higher volumes I found the bass overpowered the midrange and I didn't find the sound particularly warm. Neat Motive SX3 - A lovely natural sound which bought the music to life. Being rear ported there was still some bass boom whilst listening in direct mode with certain recordings. Although they don't come with bungs, they are available on request and Neat sent me a pair straight away. Will demo at home again once the speakers come back to my local shop. Monitor Audio Gold 50 - Whilst these displayed the least bass boom, the overall sound was very accurate and clinical, and didn't excite at all. They didn't seem to bring out the character of the music....bring back the Neats! I'll update once I've demoed the SX3's again.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

As I mentioned in an earlier post....I don't think that the marantz is up to the task of getting anywhere near the best out of these levels of speaker.Now I'm not saying the marantz is rubbish but if I was going to use a av amp for speakers at this kind of price point...I'd be looking at one of arcams near flag ship units.It'd be a bit less expensive driving them properly with a stereo amp.I've got my 21's 15 cm's from the wall without issue,(in a upper flat with suspended wooden floors)not ideal conditions.Every room is different I suppose,but I have found the 21's the most accommodating speakers I've ever owned re siting.Maybe you should try and push your luck with the dealer and ask if he can loan you a stereo amp of good quality along with the speakers you've tested,a hefty honesty payment could be required though.lol.

 

[ROB2009]

I'm toying with an ex-demo Arcam AVR750...

In a previous life I had their AVR350 and that was great for music!

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Yeah.that'd be more like it...if you must stay on the av amp route.I'm pretty confident you'll hear the speakers being kept under more control with the bass tightened up and generally sounding so much sweeter.tell us how you get on.

You'll probably hear a better performance from the cm1's also,my friend has a pair with my older arcam kit and they sound very nice.

 

[radiorog]

I never said that my naim sounds better than any other amp,I was meaning amps in that class would be a bare minimum required for the pmc's,although I'd like to hear the Abramsem v2 up.which on paper would probably work very well.Also don't be classing me as a naim fanboy as I most certainly am not.And if using an av reciever with speakers of the pmc's class..you'd better have deep pockets if you want to get a decent sound from them.Big H you just said yourself you doubt the op's reciever would be up to the task.So I don't see how I've given bad advice as it's well known that av recievers (unless very expensive ones)don't perform as well as dedicated stereo amps at the same price level.

Are you saying that 125 watts per channel of power isn't enough for the PMCs? The Abrahamsen V2 you suggest is about the same power, so surely that won't be enough either. The Nait is only 60 wattts per channel, so would be worse.

The Abe is only 70wpc

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

The Abe has a 1000va transformer

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm toying with an ex-demo Arcam AVR750...

In a previous life I had their AVR350 and that was great for music!

If you hear it, you are likely to buy it. The AVR600 was a quantum leap above the AVR350 (which I owned)....and the AVR750 is somewhat better than the AVR600. They are amazing for 2 channel.

Let us know what you decide.

 

[Native_bon]

I'm toying with an ex-demo Arcam AVR750...

In a previous life I had their AVR350 and that was great for music!

If you hear it, you are likely to buy it. The AVR600 was a quantum leap above the AVR350 (which I owned)....and the AVR750 is somewhat better than the AVR600. They are amazing for 2 channel.

Let us know what you decide.

+1

 

[ROB2009]

I could get a pre-owned Arcam AVR450 for less than half the price of the AVR750, which financially would be an easier decision to make....obviously!

Although not in the same class as the 750, do you think it would still offer the upgrade sought for music?

 

[CnoEvil]

I could get a pre-owned Arcam AVR450 for less than half the price of the AVR750, which financially would be an easier decision to make....obviously!

Although not in the same class as the 750, do you think it would still offer the upgrade sought for music?

Is this in a dealer....can you get to hear them?

 

[Native_bon]

I could get a pre-owned Arcam AVR450 for less than half the price of the AVR750, which financially would be an easier decision to make....obviously!

Although not in the same class as the 750, do you think it would still offer the upgrade sought for music?

If it were my money i will go for this option. The 450 is still a very good amp with music. Will drive most speakers with ease. I almost went for the 750 two years ago, after extensive listening i settled for the 450. Dn't get me wrong the 750 was just a tad better with music, but performance to price ratio I went with the 450. The 750 was better than some two channel amps. Thats saying something.

 

[ROB2009]

The 750 is from a dealer too far away to demo, and the 450 is from a private seller so a demo not really possible.

 

[Native_bon]

The 750 is from a dealer too far away to demo, and the 450 is from a private seller so a demo not really possible.

Dn't think you can go wrong with either. I onced demo'd my 450 with kefs R700's & it sounded very good indeed.

 

[CnoEvil]

The 750 is from a dealer too far away to demo, and the 450 is from a private seller so a demo not really possible. 

I'd go with the 750, not just because of the better SQ, but also the security of buying from a dealer....is there any of the 5 year warranty left, or will the dealer give a month or two?