B&W CM1 S2 Upgrade...

[ROB2009]

Hi

I'm thinking of upgrading my B&W CM1 S2's and wonder if The PMC twenty 21's would be a good match with my Marantz SR7010 receiver. Although they would be part of a home cinema set up, I listen to more music than watch movies so this my priority right now.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Rob

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

If music is now more of a priority to you....then the first thing I'd look at is changing the marantz to a dedicated stereo amplifier,I'm not a fan of av recievers for music and if you plan on purchasing some 21's.....they demand quality amplification to hear them at there best,my naim nait xs is probably regarded as a bare minimum for speakers in this class . I'm sure the marantz is very capable but it's got nine channels and claims 125watt pc . There's going to be some kind of compromise within that chassis somewhere . I'm sure you'd also hear some positive sonic changes to the cm1's,They are good speakers but aren't the most efficient bookshelves to drive and would also appreciate a good quality stereo amp.hope there's some food for thought for you.

 

[BigH]

I think upgrading the CM1s is a good idea, I never liked them, the bass for me is all wrong. Yes the PMCs do need decent amp. not sure if your receiver is upto it, can you get a home demo?

 

[TrevC]

If music is now more of a priority to you....then the first thing I'd look at is changing the marantz to a dedicated stereo amplifier,I'm not a fan of av recievers for music and if you plan on purchasing some 21's.....they demand quality amplification to hear them at there best,my naim nait xs is probably regarded as a bare minimum for speakers in this class . I'm sure the marantz is very capable but it's got nine channels and claims 125watt pc . There's going to be some kind of compromise within that chassis somewhere . I'm sure you'd also hear some positive sonic changes to the cm1's,They are good speakers but aren't the most efficient bookshelves to drive and would also appreciate a good quality stereo amp.hope there's some food for thought for you.

There's no reason to presume your Naim sounds better than any other amp, or that an AV amp sounds worse than a stereo one, so this is poor advice.

 

[TrevC]

The CM1

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To the OP - what's the problem regards performance that you have with the CM1's, what don't you like and what do you hope to achieve?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I never said that my naim sounds better than any other amp,I was meaning amps in that class would be a bare minimum required for the pmc's,although I'd like to hear the Abramsem v2 up.which on paper would probably work very well.Also don't be classing me as a naim fanboy as I most certainly am not.And if using an av reciever with speakers of the pmc's class..you'd better have deep pockets if you want to get a decent sound from them.Big H you just said yourself you doubt the op's reciever would be up to the task.So I don't see how I've given bad advice as it's well known that av recievers (unless very expensive ones)don't perform as well as dedicated stereo amps at the same price level.

 

[TrevC]

I never said that my naim sounds better than any other amp,I was meaning amps in that class would be a bare minimum required for the pmc's,although I'd like to hear the Abramsem v2 up.which on paper would probably work very well.Also don't be classing me as a naim fanboy as I most certainly am not.And if using an av reciever with speakers of the pmc's class..you'd better have deep pockets if you want to get a decent sound from them.Big H you just said yourself you doubt the op's reciever would be up to the task.So I don't see how I've given bad advice as it's well known that av recievers (unless very expensive ones)don't perform as well as dedicated stereo amps at the same price level.

Are you saying that 125 watts per channel of power isn't enough for the PMCs? The Abrahamsen V2 you suggest is about the same power, so surely that won't be enough either. The Nait is only 60 wattts per channel, so would be worse.

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks all for your input.

The only way I could trade the Marantz receiver for a dedicated stereo amp would be to have something like a Sonos Playbar for movies/tv viewing, as I still need something better than built in TV speakers. That however would mean a total change in philosophy from the one system does it all.

It isn't that I have a problem with the speakers as such, it's just that I want a better "quality" sound, more natural and warm, hard to put into words. My initial thoughts are that changing speakers would be the easiest upgrade without having a total rethink of the electronics.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

The power supply in the Abrahamsen and naim amps are a heck of a lot beefier than the av reciever,the pmc's thrive on a good healthy current from an amp.Do you believe that that marantz can put out a healthy 125 watts per channel.mmm.i doubt it.I haven't checked but I very much doubt it's power supply is in the same league as either the naim or abrahamsen.it isn't all about watts all of the time Trev.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Maybe time for a change of philosophy,In that one system can't really do it all WELL.As I said earlier the av amps are always compromised when it comes to two channel play back.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Trev stop......

Why are you derailing the thread with your nonesense.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Thanks all for your input.

The only way I could trade the Marantz receiver for a dedicated stereo amp would be to have something like a Sonos Playbar for movies/tv viewing, as I still need something better than built in TV speakers. That however would mean a total change in philosophy from the one system does it all.

It isn't that I have a problem with the speakers as such, it's just that I want a better "quality" sound, more natural and warm, hard to put into words. My initial thoughts are that changing speakers would be the easiest upgrade without having a total rethink of the electronics.

???

I take it you've gone through all the options on your amp.

Turned off all unused channels and effects etc - played with positioning of your speakers and so on?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.Is he just at it or does he really not have a clue?

 

[Andrewjvt]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway.
Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

 

[TrevC]

The power supply in the Abrahamsen and naim amps are a heck of a lot beefier than the av reciever,the pmc's thrive on a good healthy current from an amp.Do you believe that that marantz can put out a healthy 125 watts per channel.mmm.i doubt it.I haven't checked but I very much doubt it's power supply is in the same league as either the naim or abrahamsen.it isn't all about watts all of the time Trev.

So you think Marantz might lie about the specs, and a power supply isn't all about watts. You are hilarious.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The power supply in the Abrahamsen and naim amps are a heck of a lot beefier than the av reciever,the pmc's thrive on a good healthy current from an amp.Do you believe that that marantz can put out a healthy 125 watts per channel.mmm.i doubt it.I haven't checked but I very much doubt it's power supply is in the same league as either the naim or abrahamsen.it isn't all about watts all of the time Trev.

So you think Marantz might lie about the specs, and a power supply isn't all about watts. You are hilarious.

But you know as well as anyone they can manipulate the specs to seem better than they are for sales reasons

 

[TomSawyer]

I have a dedicated hifi and a separate cinema setup. What I can say is that there is very little to choose between my current receiver and my amp in sound quality whereas that didn't use to be the case. The Marantz SR7010 has a max power consumption of 700w so I think we can assume it has a power supply to drive two channels to the full 120w per channel.

As others have said, an understanding of the specific dissatisfaction with the CM1 would be helpful, but I can't help feeling that the very small woofers would be its limitation for music as far as I was concerned.

Assuming the OP has to prioritise for budget reasons, I think it would be sensible to first audition the larger CMs, the 5s and even the 9s because they would pair well with the existing centre speaker (I know music is priority, but no harm keeping cinema capability). If they don't prove satisfactory at audition, then try other speakers and finally once the speakers are sorted and funds allow, add a stereo amp into the mix by running the FR and FL preamp outs of the AV reveiver through it for cinema and using the other inputs for music.

I've not been on here long enough to know the personalities well, but I have to say I agree with TrevC in that, in my opinion at least, the Marantz is unlikely to be the weak link, initially at least, and the poor bass response of the speakers a more likely culprit.

 

[TrevC]

The power supply in the Abrahamsen and naim amps are a heck of a lot beefier than the av reciever,the pmc's thrive on a good healthy current from an amp.Do you believe that that marantz can put out a healthy 125 watts per channel.mmm.i doubt it.I haven't checked but I very much doubt it's power supply is in the same league as either the naim or abrahamsen.it isn't all about watts all of the time Trev.

So you think Marantz might lie about the specs, and a power supply isn't all about watts. You are hilarious.

But you know as well as anyone they can manipulate the specs to seem better than they are for sales reasons

If they quote RMS values they can't do that, and Marantz is a pretty well regarded amplifier manufacturer. Do you think they would risk their reputation by being dishonest in the spec?

 

[TrevC]

I have a dedicated hifi and a separate cinema setup. What I can say is that there is very little to choose between my current receiver and my amp in sound quality whereas that didn't use to be the case. The Marantz SR7010 has a max power consumption of 700w so I think we can assume it has a power supply to drive two channels to the full 120w per channel.

As others have said, an understanding of the specific dissatisfaction with the CM1 would be helpful, but I can't help feeling that the very small woofers would be its limitation for music as far as I was concerned.

Assuming the OP has to prioritise for budget reasons, I think it would be sensible to first audition the larger CMs, the 5s and even the 9s because they would pair well with the existing centre speaker (I know music is priority, but no harm keeping cinema capability). If they don't prove satisfactory at audition, then try other speakers and finally once the speakers are sorted and funds allow, add a stereo amp into the mix by running the FR and FL preamp outs of the AV reveiver through it for cinema and using the other inputs for music.

I've not been on here long enough to know the personalities well, but I have to say I agree with TrevC in that, in my opinion at least, the Marantz is unlikely to be the weak link, initially at least, and the poor bass response of the speakers a more likely culprit.

He does have a sub, so perhaps an antimode would help. It transformed my system.

 

[TrevC]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway. Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

Thread derail? Hardly. Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amp perform well when played loud? You are both repeating nonsense you've read.

 

[Andrewjvt]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway. Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

Thread derail? Hardly. Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amp perform well loud? You are both repeating nonsense you've read. 

presumption is the mother of all f ups. Ive got lots technical /science qualifications.
This has already been discussed in other threads second to cables to death.
Stop willy waving your self importance of knowledge as if only you are cleaver enough to realise

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks, maybe I'll demo the cm5's initially and take it from there. Unfortunately I'm limited to bookshelf speakers as they sit on a full width unit, no room for floor standers....

 

[TrevC]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway. Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

Thread derail? Hardly. Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amp perform well loud? You are both repeating nonsense you've read.

presumption is the mother of all f ups. Ive got lots technical /science qualifications. This has already been discussed in other threads second to cables to death. Stop willy waving your self importance of knowledge as if only you are cleaver enough to realise

You don't need a cleaver, just a bit of a clue. If you paid for your science qualifications you should demand a refund, especially if they included English.

Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amplifier sound the same played loud as a 125 watt per channel stereo amplifier?

 

[BigH]

Thanks all for your input.

The only way I could trade the Marantz receiver for a dedicated stereo amp would be to have something like a Sonos Playbar for movies/tv viewing, as I still need something better than built in TV speakers. That however would mean a total change in philosophy from the one system does it all.

It isn't that I have a problem with the speakers as such, it's just that I want a better "quality" sound, more natural and warm, hard to put into words. My initial thoughts are that changing speakers would be the easiest upgrade without having a total rethink of the electronics.

I think B&W speakers are quite warm, they are not neatral thats part of the problem. But they have low sensitivity. Difficult one, I not sure PMCs will be right for you. Maybe look at some floorstanders?

Typically AV recievers have higher distortion than stereo amps, but the Marantz does not look too bad "
125 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven"[/list]
As I said home demo if you can, if you can't find a dealer with a good returns policy.