B&W CM1 S2 Upgrade...

[BigH]

Thanks, maybe I'll demo the cm5's initially and take it from there. Unfortunately I'm limited to bookshelf speakers as they sit on a full width unit, no room for floor standers....

They are sitting on a unit?

You have any isolation under them?

 

[ROB2009]

Yes, but only what was supplied with the speakers

 

[Andrewjvt]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway. Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

Thread derail? Hardly. Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amp perform well loud? You are both repeating nonsense you've read. 

presumption is the mother of all f ups. Ive got lots technical /science qualifications. This has already been discussed in other threads second to cables to death. Stop willy waving your self importance of knowledge as if only you are cleaver enough to realise

You don't need a cleaver, just a bit of a clue. If you paid for your science qualifications you should demand a refund, especially if they included English.

Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amplifier sound the same played loud as a 125 watt per channel stereo amplifier?

Would you like me to speak to you in afrikaans?

 

[ROB2009]

Also, all music is streamed from Spotify Premium via a Sonos connect, I listen in direct mode on the amp, no silly processing modes...

 

[BigH]

Yes, but only what was supplied with the speakers

Try these maybe make a difference, if not you can return for a refund: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002D0B4K/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B007YFWUDO&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=E6GGM7BFSQ3E86KB9WDC

For under £30 should be worth a try.

 

[TomSawyer]

Also, all music is streamed from Spotify Premium via a Sonos connect, I listen in direct mode on the amp, no silly processing modes...

I might be wrong, Rob, but I think the SR7010 has Spotify Connect itself. I think it would be worth trying a few things before you think about spending money. If I'm right, try Spotify Connect through the receiver direct, without the Sonos and the Receiver in "Music>Stereo" mode. I don't have the same, but mine's a Denon so from the same stable and it gives a good account of itself like that (albeit through floor standing speakers).

I think the other area worth a play is integration of the sub.

 

[TrevC]

BTW.before anyone pulls me up...other brands of amps do have good power supplies.lol.Leema,primare,roksan,krel,brysto...etc etc.trev does love a good thread derail.

Imo your original advise was sound and only your opinion anyway. Trev: im not saying your wrong or right about stereo v av there is just better ways to say things or get your point over.

I also cant see a buget av amp performing as well in this regard unless the op will never play loud

Thread derail? Hardly. Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amp perform well loud? You are both repeating nonsense you've read.

presumption is the mother of all f ups. Ive got lots technical /science qualifications. This has already been discussed in other threads second to cables to death. Stop willy waving your self importance of knowledge as if only you are cleaver enough to realise

You don't need a cleaver, just a bit of a clue. If you paid for your science qualifications you should demand a refund, especially if they included English.

Why wouldn't a 125 watt per channel AV amplifier sound the same played loud as a 125 watt per channel stereo amplifier?

Would you like me to speak to you in afrikaans?

I apologise.

 

[ROB2009]

You are correct that the Marantz has Spotify Connect built in, but as I have Sonos throughout the house, I prefer to use a common interface.

As for sub integration, I have the Rel connected directly to the main speaker terminals on the receiver via the Neutrik cable as per the manual, fo for 2 channel listening in direct mode I still get sub back up.

I was playing around with the sub level and crossover last night....maybe it sounds better than I thought !!! The grass isn't always greener....or is it?

 

[TomSawyer]

You are correct that the Marantz has Spotify Connect built in, but as I have Sonos throughout the house, I prefer to use a common interface.

Sure, but in the case of Spotify Connect, the interface is the Spotify app so it's pretty standard and I was only suggesting trying it briefly to see if it provided any benefit - probably won't but experiment will provide you with more understanding on which to base your decision.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Rob

You are going to get very conflicting views on here, so my advice is to take all on board and then do a lot of demoing.

FWIW. My opinion is that Kef works well with Marantz and you should try R100, R300 and LS50s. Sometimes, synergy between Amp and Speakers is more important than chucking money at speakers.
It is also my experience, that speakers (ideally) need an amp in the same ballpark in terms of quality- which usually means price. I have also found that, all things being equal, 2 channel amps at the same price as AV amps, generally sound better....this is something that you need to try for yourself.

 

[rainsoothe]

Sometimes, synergy between Amp and Speakers is more important than chucking money at speakers.
It is also my experience, that speakers (ideally) need an amp in the same ballpark in terms of quality- which usually means price. I have also found that, all things being equal, 2 channel amps at the same price as AV amps, generally sound better....this is something that you need to try for yourself.

+1
Especially the synergy thing.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks, maybe I'll demo the cm5's initially and take it from there. Unfortunately I'm limited to bookshelf speakers as they sit on a full width unit, no room for floor standers....

I'd also look at 805S, if you don't mind s/hand. Heard a pair with a Naim XS and they sounded awesome.

 

[ID.]

Thanks, maybe I'll demo the cm5's initially and take it from there. Unfortunately I'm limited to bookshelf speakers as they sit on a full width unit, no room for floor standers....

I'd also look at 805S, if you don't mind s/hand. Heard a pair with a Naim XS and they sounded awesome.

Wonderful speakers if you can find a pair second hand (the ones I've seen 2nd hand are hitting a real sweet spot in terms of the sound quality you get for your money). I've heard them with a number of amps and they sounded stunning every time.

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks for all the comments... the search goes on, but not sure in what direction yet!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You still never clarified what you think is wrong with your current set up.

Bass, imaging etc.

Is there any improvement when your DVD/BRplayer is used with CD?

Depending on space try relocating your sub or try and provide a viewpoint on what you think is wrong or what you want to achieve in terms of sound.

Chances are your sound could be better than you think.

Good luck with your search anyway.

 

[ROB2009]

Hi, I'm pretty stuck for space, the sub has to sit in the corner to the side of the speakers, the speakers are only about 5ft apart and I'm about 7ft directly in front on them. The room is 15ft x 11ft and although small, it is detached so I dont have any neighbour constraints with volume, speakers about 200mm from the wall and I have the supplied bungs inserted.

I would say I want a fuller sound with more presence and cleaner bass, whilst there is sufficient bass overall sometimes it overpowers, maybe I just haven't got it integrated that well....I'll keep tuning!

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. If it were me, I would ditch the whole surround thing - stereo is enough for me. Alternatively, you could swap your large boxes with something like the excellent Q Acoustics 7000i (at least I think that's what it's called), and maybe get a lesser surround amp. That, or a soundbar.

As for the music part, keep the Sonos, since it has a good interface, and get a stereo amp with a DAC - either Hegel H80 or Naim Supernait (mark 1), either of which will improve the sound coming from the Sonos significantly.

As for speakers, the PMC Twenty series will in no way give you the warmth you are seeking. I would look at ATC SCM11, Harbeth P3ESR or Revel Performa M106. If you go with the Hegel, KEF R300 are also worth auditioning.

B&W CM5 - I used to own these, and they were nice little speakers, but sometimes voices would have a "cupped hands" effect on them. Otherwise, they are indeed warm and capable of nice "fake" bass (meaning there's a hump in the mid-bass that some people mind - I, for one, don't).

Also, any standmounted speaker (apart from a few, especially designed for the purpose, like Neat Iota or Guru Junior) will bennefit greatly from being... well, on a stand. The effect that speaker positioning has is almost as big as getting a new pair of more expensive speakers. So having speakers on stands is a must, if you want the speakers to work at their full potential. And again, it's not a minor improvement.

 

[ROB2009]

Ok so, would there be any benefit in keeping the AV receiver and adding an integrated amp or power amp to the receiver pre-outs?

 

[rainsoothe]

Ok so, would there be any benefit in keeping the AV receiver and adding an integrated amp or power amp to the receiver pre-outs?

If it has pre outs, yes, I think so. You could change your two fronts to actives, or get a power amp or integrated with av bypass feature. Don't know how big an improvement it would be, you have to audition for yourself.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

There really is no point getting a dedicated stereo amp - I agree with TrevC on this.

But digging into the menus on your current AVamp could get you your results.

Start by removing the bungs in the speakers.

Direct all LFE to your sub but set your crossover high - 120Hz or so. (do experiment with crossover points), also set your speakers to 'small' in your menus.

Turn your sub down and from 0 increase its volume in small increments. Till it underpins your sound.

A good stereo sound should work for movies......

 

[Thompsonuxb]

You are correct that the Marantz has Spotify Connect built in, but as I have Sonos throughout the house, I prefer to use a common interface.

As for sub integration, I have the Rel connected directly to the main speaker terminals on the receiver via the Neutrik cable as per the manual, fo for 2 channel listening in direct mode I still get sub back up.

I was playing around with the sub level and crossover last night....maybe it sounds better than I thought !!! The grass isn't always greener....or is it?

To add to my previous post - take the amp out of 'direct' mode. (you may need to set your tone controls to '0')

Connect the sub via a RCA/coax from the 'sub out' (try a single leg from any interconnects you have if they don't work or are too short you may need to purchase the correct lead )

This will allow you to set LFE to sub only - configure the amp for 2.1 or 5.1 stereo.

Use the CM1's for the top end and midrange only and let the sub do the rest.

Then my previous posted suggestions should work out.....

See how you get on.

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks for your suggestions, I've tried what you said and I think I'm getting there!

I've cabled up as you suggested, had to put the bungs back in the rear ports and am currently on 110Hz crossover, it seams to have made the CM's more revealing by using the higher setting.

The receiver has separate settings for 2 channel listening so I can keep seeing what works for me.

Much appreciated

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The one thing receivers have in their favour over 2 channel amps is there flexibility to taylor the sound.

Taking the bass away from the speakers (send LFE to sub only) should give a cleaner top end/midrange. - The speakers have a 'large' midrange/bass driver which should be good ref timbre.

Do ensure all bass is removed from them during set up though and don't be afraid to make use of your tone controls.

Only bring in the bass when you have achieved the quality, clarity and imaging you want on your main speakers alone and then bring in the bass to taste so it compliments the sound. I'd suggest doing this without the bungs as these I'm sure will compromise their frequency range out put.

Its also worth looking into your 'delay'/phase options and switching between movies and music settings on the sub.

Note: you will need to use the sub/out on your amp for all this.

And check the levels on the main speakers in your menus, usually a -10db to +10db swing.

Set it to +10db.

Then play with the toe in and toe out on your main speakers to nail imaging.

Happy tinkering - let us know if you hit a sweetspot......

 

[CnoEvil]

I take the opposite view to Thompson ie. For me, it's all that sound processing which I don't like for 2 channel. If I'm listening to an AV amp, I prefer Stereo Direct, where all processing is bypassed.....though I do stress, It Is About Preference.

 

[ROB2009]

It does go against the grain to be honest, I've always listened using direct mode too. But switching to stereo does give me more control, maybe that's a compromise for using an AV receiver