AVI DM5

[radiorog]

It's my go to thread! Interesting points from all sides. Keep it up!

 

[bluedroog]

With all the arguments appearing on the forum, it's actually got me into a position where I'd like to listen to a pair of DM10s.

I'm living just south of Birmingham, where's the best place to actually listen to a set?

The gorilla marketing working in action! To be honest it doesn't bother me too much, I'd like to hear a pair myself.

Your're not too far from one of two dealers who actually stock them...http://www.fwhifi.co.uk/

 

[avole]

Copied from the HDD forum:

"Why don't you simply tell the truth and give the continuous power figures into 8 ohms ? What on earth is the problem using a measure like that? Yes, I agree is isn't perfect, but people have to have some kind of yardstick when looking at HiFi. Does it matter your amps are around 50W continuous? That's all some Dynaudio actives are, but they don't make a song and dance about it. You might think you're selling a few speakers but you're losing sales too, although you do that anyway through not allowing your speakers to be compared with similar ones in dealers.
You should also consider wifi/airplay/bluetooth compatibility. Your products are being left behind by quite a few other manufacturers."

 

[nopiano]

Could someone please sum up this thread in one succinct sentence?

"Those who have heard or own AVI speakers invariably speak well of them and aren't bothered by the specs; those who haven't think the manufacturers are conning the customers with misleading specs and want them to 'come clean'."

 

[ID.]

The gorilla marketing working in action!

is this a Harambe thing? It's ok man, I miss him too.

RIP in peace big fella.

 

[oivavoi10]

Could someone please sum up this thread in one succinct sentence?

"Those who have heard or own AVI speakers invariably speak well of them and aren't bothered by the specs; those who haven't think the manufacturers are conning the customers with misleading specs and want them to 'come clean'."

This actually reminds me of the endless online wars between Android and iPhone users, that have been going on for the last years. Android users have (rightly) pointed out that their phones had better specifications. iPhone users then responded that specs didn't matter that much, since the iPhone nevertheless delivered a smoother, faster and more hassle-free experience, due to the superior integration of the hardware and the software. As someone who has used both iPhones and Android phones and currently uses Android, I do think that the iPhone fanboys have been right about this. (up until recently: the quality of apple's software has taken a terrible hit in the last couple of years)

When it comes to AVI, I do think that the DM10s sound amazing, as I've already stated in another thread. Never heard the DM5s. They were better than almost all the other box speakers I've had the chance to hear (Kii Three sounded better though, IMO). My guess is that it's the same thing going on as with the iPhone (until Apple started to mess it up): Because of the ability to integrate everything; drivers, amps, crossovers, etc, they are able to deliever a much better end result than many others. I do think that the point about their amplifiers is valid though. When I read "250 w", I immediately read it as "250 w into 8 ohms). I therefore hope AVI will change their description when it comes to this.

But still: I do suggest that the people who argue so vigorously against AVI should try to have a listen. If you think it sounds over-priced and bad afterwards, then please, go ahead and say it. But bashing a product and then refusing to listen to it seems a bit silly to me.

 

[shadders]

Could someone please sum up this thread in one succinct sentence?

"Those who have heard or own AVI speakers invariably speak well of them and aren't bothered by the specs; those who haven't think the manufacturers are conning the customers with misleading specs and want them to 'come clean'."

This actually reminds me of the endless online wars between Android and iPhone users, that have been going on for the last years. Android users have (rightly) pointed out that their phones had better specifications. iPhone users then responded that specs didn't matter that much, since the iPhone nevertheless delivered a smoother, faster and more hassle-free experience, due to the superior integration of the hardware and the software. As someone who has used both iPhones and Android phones and currently uses Android, I do think that the iPhone fanboys have been right about this. (up until recently: the quality of apple's software has taken a terrible hit in the last couple of years)

When it comes to AVI, I do think that the DM10s sound amazing, as I've already stated in another thread. Never heard the DM5s. They were better than almost all the other box speakers I've had the chance to hear (Kii Three sounded better though, IMO). My guess is that it's the same thing going on as with the iPhone (until Apple started to mess it up): Because of the ability to integrate everything; drivers, amps, crossovers, etc, they are able to deliever a much better end result than many others. I do think that the point about their amplifiers is valid though. When I read "250 w", I immediately read it as "250 w into 8 ohms). I therefore hope AVI will change their description when it comes to this.

But still: I do suggest that the people who argue so vigorously against AVI should try to have a listen. If you think it sounds over-priced and bad afterwards, then please, go ahead and say it. But bashing a product and then refusing to listen to it seems a bit silly to me.

Hi,

No one has argued against AVI. We are trying to clarify the technical aspects. The rudeness and attitude from AVI owners as per this thread and others is not acceptable. The AVI owners use the errored/dubious specifications in their arguments, which are being challenged. That is all - the specifications stated are being challenged. If the specifications are used to lead others to believe that the product is not what it is claimed to be, then it should be challenged.

No one is challenging the subjective experience - how can we - it is a personal experience.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[gowiththeflow]

......the specifications stated are being challenged. If the specifications are used to lead others to believe that the product is not what it is claimed to be, then it should be challenged..........

With due respect Shadders, do you really think that most potential buyers pay much attention to the manufacturer's specs; particularly with active speakers, where amp/speaker matching is a total non-issue?

Most buyers will be going off recommendations, good press and reviews, magazine ratings, auditioning of the speakers and adverts/publicity. The last thing most "normal" people will do, is check out the specs....and even when they do, to most they will not fully understand them or what they actually indicate in real world conditions.

z

 

[shadders]

......the specifications stated are being challenged. If the specifications are used to lead others to believe that the product is not what it is claimed to be, then it should be challenged..........

With due respect Shadders, do you really think that most potential buyers pay much attention to the manufacturer's specs; particularly with active speakers, where amp/speaker matching is a total non-issue?

Most buyers will be going off recommendations, good press and reviews, magazine ratings, auditioning of the speakers and adverts/publicity. The last thing most "normal" people will do, is check out the specs....and even when they do, to most they will not fully understand them or what they actually indicate in real world conditions.

z

Hi,

I am not sure you can state or define what is normal. What is normal for you is not for others, and vice versa.

When a person buys an amplifier, they consider the power of that amplifier and will compare to others using the industry standard power rating, as well as those aspects you have mentioned.

If the specifications are not important, then why is the AVI stated specifications given at all ?

Why do these specifications not meet the industry standard ?.

Why do the AVI owners state it is not important yet use them in their arguments ?

AVI can easily state the continuous power into the nominal speaker impedance that they use, or 8ohms.

Without comparing the specifications, how does one gauge the value of that product against another ?.

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[oivavoi10]

that AVI's specifications concerning their amplfiers are not accurate. And I do think that AVI owners should just own up to that fact. Still, wouldn't you like just to have a listen to them? And then you'll know even more about what all the fuss is about? Since AVI owners are so evangelizing, I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to find someone who'd be more than willing to give you a demo. After that, you'll be able to say either:

a) AVI provides misleading specs, and to my ears they sound bad

b) AVI provides misleading specs, but to my ears they sound good

c) AVI provides misleading specs, and to my ears they sound just about average

Why not? What have you got to lose by listening to them?

 

[shadders]

that AVI's specifications concerning their amplfiers are not accurate. And I do think that AVI owners should just own up to that fact. Still, wouldn't you like just to have a listen to them? And then you'll know even more about what all the fuss is about? Since AVI owners are so evangelizing, I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to find someone who'd be more than willing to give you a demo. After that, you'll be able to say either:

a) AVI provides misleading specs, and to my ears they sound bad

b) AVI provides misleading specs, but to my ears they sound good

c) AVI provides misleading specs, and to my ears they sound just about average

Why not? What have you got to lose by listening to them?

Hi,

I responded to the threads due to the misinformation provided to others regarding specifications. I have no interest in listening to them. I have NEVER criticised the way that they sound, nor will I. Myself not listening to them does not exclude me from challenging the technical aspects, as others have done also. I can NEVER criticise anothers personal experience nor will I.

I will challenge the spread of misinformation, or when others are being misled.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[The Mad One]

shadders wrote:

Hi,

No one has argued against AVI. We are trying to clarify the technical aspect

Really i for one am not intrested in any technical aspects so "the we must mean you and you only"

Shadders also quoted:

The rudeness and attitude from AVI owners as per this thread and others is not acceptable

Oh typicical me an AVI owner being Rude naughty me.

 

[shadders]

shadders wrote:

Hi,

No one has argued against AVI. We are trying to clarify the technical aspect

Really i for one am not intrested in any technical aspects so "the we must mean you and you only"

Shadders also quoted:

The rudeness and attitude from AVI owners as per this thread and others is not acceptable

Oh typicical me an AVI owner being Rude naughty me.

Hi,

I and others have challenged the technical aspects. So, not just me. If you examine the threads, others are interested in examining the accuracy.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Craig M.]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

 

[shadders]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

Hi,

People do want to know about amplifier design. The design aspects usually incorporate a specific technology or topology, which sets that product apart. As an example, AVI quote 8th order filters. Why bother quoting that design aspect if it is not important to the purchaser. Other active manufacturers quote 4th order filters.

Industry standards for amplifiers are a specific continuous power, into a stated impedance, for a given THD. If you examine many amplifier websites, they will quote these figures. If you examine ATC for example, they provide the amplifier powers for each driver, and these will be continuous power.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Escapism]

Shadders, I'm sure in the real world you're a nice chap and I appreciate you're trying hard to come across as the decent balanced type, but your constant ranting about measurements is becoming incredibly tiresome IMO. I'm imagining you typing whilst riding a merry-go-round atop the highest horse.

Also, intimating those that have purchased AVI equipment have some how been duped and are therefore naive is rubbing people up the wrong way.

 

[avole]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

So you never wondered what the power rating of the amps you bought were?

Amp power has a lot to do with why some actives sound the way they do, same for passives.

 

[davedotco]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

Hi,

People do want to know about amplifier design. The design aspects usually incorporate a specific technology or topology, which sets that product apart. As an example, AVI quote 8th order filters. Why bother quoting that design aspect if it is not important to the purchaser. Other active manufacturers quote 4th order filters.

Industry standards for amplifiers are a specific continuous power, into a stated impedance, for a given THD. If you examine many amplifier websites, they will quote these figures. If you examine ATC for example, they provide the amplifier powers for each driver, and these will be continuous power.

Regards,

Shadders.

Much as I enjoy the rigor of your arguments they are, to my mind, based on a deeply flawed premise.

Your "industry standard" measure of continuous/rms power into 8 ohms is in itself a complete joke, as anyone who has compared the similarly rated (by the "industry standard" rating) Yamaha AS501 with a Abrahamsen V2.0 (any version) will tell you. The "industry standard" just isn't.

You insist on comparing the amplifiers used in integrated active designs with those designed for 'universal' use, they are just not the same at all. A regular hi-fi amplifier may have to drive any load and amplifiers that can really do that are going to be expensive.

Compare that to an amplifier in an active design which has to drive a known, specific driver with known parameters, bandwidth limited often with forced air cooling and we are dealing with very different devices indeed.

That said you are undoubtably correct that the AVI amplifier is in no way a 250 watt continuous amplifier, by any rational standards, no argument there, but in the real world that is irrelevant.

I think I understand the reasons AVI give the power ratings they do, they are not accurate in a technical sense but they give an idea, to non technical hi-fi users, of the capabilities of the amp and speakers.

 

[Craig M.]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

So you never wondered what the power rating of the amps you bought were?

Amp power has a lot to do with why some actives sound the way they do, same for passives.

No, not once I'd realised you couldn't rely on them. Amp power is only important if there isn't enough, something I don't think any of the actives I've heard (or owned) suffered from.

 

[daveh75]

Shadders, I'm sure in the real world you're a nice chap and I appreciate you're trying hard to come across as the decent balanced type, but your constant ranting about measurements is becoming incredibly tiresome IMO. I'm imagining you typing whilst riding a merry-go-round atop the highest horse.

So tiresome in fact, you've been following from afar and felt compelled to comment

 

[Craig M.]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

Hi,

People do want to know about amplifier design. The design aspects usually incorporate a specific technology or topology, which sets that product apart. As an example, AVI quote 8th order filters. Why bother quoting that design aspect if it is not important to the purchaser. Other active manufacturers quote 4th order filters.

Industry standards for amplifiers are a specific continuous power, into a stated impedance, for a given THD. If you examine many amplifier websites, they will quote these figures. If you examine ATC for example, they provide the amplifier powers for each driver, and these will be continuous power.

Regards,

Shadders.

We must be somehow seeing each other's posts from parallel universes then, in my universe the vast majority of posters on this forum looking for advice on amplifiers ask if it will work well with their speakers and could they get better for the money. The amps topology never comes into it.

I know what the industry standards are for amps (for what they're worth), I asked what they were for active speakers.

 

[Escapism]

Shadders, I'm sure in the real world you're a nice chap and I appreciate you're trying hard to come across as the decent balanced type, but your constant ranting about measurements is becoming incredibly tiresome IMO. I'm imagining you typing whilst riding a merry-go-round atop the highest horse.

Also, intimating those that have purchased AVI equipment have some how been duped and are therefore naive is rubbing people up the wrong way.

 

[Escapism]

Correct, thanks for the confirmation daveh75.

 

[shadders]

Shadders, I'm sure in the real world you're a nice chap and I appreciate you're trying hard to come across as the decent balanced type, but your constant ranting about measurements is becoming incredibly tiresome IMO. I'm imagining you typing whilst riding a merry-go-round atop the highest horse.

Also, intimating those that have purchased AVI equipment have some how been duped and are therefore naive is rubbing people up the wrong way.

Hi,

I have not been ranting about the measurements. Only responded to AVI owners or others.

The AVI owners have stated that passive systems are broken, handicapped, or the crossover is power sapping. They use the measurements to support their positive statements of the products, yet claim they are unimportant when challenged.

Duped - misled - whatever the word - stating an amplifier is 250watts when it is not, is deceipt.

Why should a group of people mislead other newcomers to the forum and make the statements as above unchallenged ?.

The AVI owners have not responded to the actual challenge of the measurements objectively, but have been rude and offensive.

If one examines the Genelec active, Event Electronics active, or ATC active - they all conform to the industry standard, and where they differ (such as impedance), that actually state under what conditions the technical parameters/measurments are derived.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

An active speaker may be integrated - but people still want to know for an integrated amplifier if the pre amp is discrete/Class A or op-amp based. So why not for an active speaker ?.

Essentially, if you are going to provide specifications and use them to positively promote a product, then they can at least be accurate and meet the industry standard.

Regards,

Shadders.

Whenever I've bought an amp in the past I don't recall ever wondering how the pre was designed, I was happy enough just to listen to it with my speakers.

As for industry standards for actives, can you tell me what they are because I'm not sure they exist. Amp power has little to do with why some actives sound the way they do.

Hi,

People do want to know about amplifier design. The design aspects usually incorporate a specific technology or topology, which sets that product apart. As an example, AVI quote 8th order filters. Why bother quoting that design aspect if it is not important to the purchaser. Other active manufacturers quote 4th order filters.

Industry standards for amplifiers are a specific continuous power, into a stated impedance, for a given THD. If you examine many amplifier websites, they will quote these figures. If you examine ATC for example, they provide the amplifier powers for each driver, and these will be continuous power.

Regards,

Shadders.

We must be somehow seeing each other's posts from parallel universes then, in my universe the vast majority of posters on this forum looking for advice on amplifiers ask if it will work well with their speakers and could they get better for the money. The amps topology never comes into it.

I know what the industry standards are for amps (for what they're worth), I asked what they were for active speakers.

Hi,

If you look at the posts for the Abrahamsen, they discuss the topology and technology extensively - has been interesting. We have people from different backgrounds on the forum, and if your not interested in the details, then great.

For active speakers - look at Event Electronics, ATC and Genelec - all state the continuous power into a known load, some with THD measurement too. Same as separate amplifiers. Why should an amplifier for an active system be so different in design/topology from a integrated or other separate amplifier ?.

They are not - they have reduce component count, due to the boucheret or zobel network being removed, but in essence are the same. Same tolopolgy - input stage, VAS and Output stage.

Regards,

Shadders.