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AVI DM5

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Craig M.

New member
Mar 20, 2008
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shadders said:
Craig M. said:
shadders said:
For active speakers - look at Event Electronics, ATC and Genelec - all state the continuous power into a known load, some with THD measurement too.

Regards,

Shadders.
Genuinely, the 1st three manufacturers I looked at (Kef, PMC, Kii) just quote a power output and nothing else. I don't think there is an industry standard for power outputs of the amps in active speakers, it seems to me that they quote in whichever way they see fit.
Hi,

I examined the Kef X300 - and it seems probable that 50watts for the LF is a contiinuous rating - which is realistic fo rthe size of speaker and the class of amplifier. For PMC (2.2.5) states 150w RMS for LF etc. So they do provide them.

Regards,

Shadders.
So I have to look at pictures of the KEFs and guess, the PMCs don't mention load. So they don't provide them. I see you didn't mention the Kii's. I'm sure I could find many others that don't provide the specs the way you think they should.
 

Craig M.

New member
Mar 20, 2008
127
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oivavoi10 said:
shadders said:
Hi,

I have NEVER stated that passive systems are better than active systems. I agree that active systems as a design are superior to passive systems. This has NEVER been disagreed with.

I have stated that, the statements that passive systems are [broken or handicapped] or the cross over filter is power sapping - is misleading. The statements used to support the AVI speakers with regards to power are in error, and when challenging the stated power, then either rude responses are received, or that these parameters don't really matter - just listen to them. If the parameters do not matter - why quote them or embellish them ?

All i have done is challenge the specifications and bad statements regarding passives - that is all.

Regards,

Shadders.
Ok, my bad! Then I misunderstood your point. Sorry about that.

Do you have any good sources on the power consumption of passive vs active speakers, btw? I've been trying to read up on this, since I'm thinking of having a go at "activating" my passive speakers (using two external amps and an external electronic crossover). It would be relevant for me to get more input into this, in order to decide how much power I need - whether I can make do with less total power than now. I've read AVI's claims on this, but I don't think I've come across much material about it other places.

regards, oivavoi
Depends on the crossover, I've seen figures mentioned of between 30 & 50% of amp power being dissipated. I seem to recall something on TNT Audio but it's a few years since I looked.
 

oivavoi10

New member
Aug 9, 2016
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shadders said:
oivavoi10 said:
shadders said:
Hi,

I have NEVER stated that passive systems are better than active systems. I agree that active systems as a design are superior to passive systems. This has NEVER been disagreed with.

I have stated that, the statements that passive systems are [broken or handicapped] or the cross over filter is power sapping - is misleading. The statements used to support the AVI speakers with regards to power are in error, and when challenging the stated power, then either rude responses are received, or that these parameters don't really matter - just listen to them. If the parameters do not matter - why quote them or embellish them ?

All i have done is challenge the specifications and bad statements regarding passives - that is all.

Regards,

Shadders.
Ok, my bad! Then I misunderstood your point. Sorry about that.

Do you have any good sources on the power consumption of passive vs active speakers, btw? I've been trying to read up on this, since I'm thinking of having a go at "activating" my passive speakers (using two external amps and an external electronic crossover). It would be relevant for me to get more input into this, in order to decide how much power I need - whether I can make do with less total power than now. I've read AVI's claims on this, but I don't think I've come across much material about it other places.

regards, oivavoi
Hi,

No - no information on this - i examined a crossover - but not simulated it yet. The crossover will insert an impedance between the power amplifier and driver - but, if the components are good quality - then there will be minimal losses (power absorption) - what they are - i have not been able to locate. Only the coil designer will be able to tell you what the series resistance is etc. Same for capacitors with regards to their losses too.

The insertion of the impedance will reduce the power delivered to the driver - again, not simulated that yet. For the tweeter - which is usually more sensisitve than the woofer etc., has a series resistor to reduce the power to match the speaker response across the frequency - this resistor will dissipate power.

Regards,

Shadders.
Ok, thanks! :)
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
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0
Wait a minute... somebody's not in bed!

Who's not in bed?

Shadders not in bed!

Don't worry Shaddy . It's time to go.

hi mate.. so you've spend that beautiful and sunny and hot day on a forum? what a waste.. did you tame the dragon? did you send a message to Avi headquarters?

btw. Genelec state peak power for their monitors.. for 6,5 inch one it's only 90W. and SPL are under 100..

time to go bed..
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
Craig M. said:
shadders said:
Craig M. said:
shadders said:
For active speakers - look at Event Electronics, ATC and Genelec - all state the continuous power into a known load, some with THD measurement too.

Regards,

Shadders.
Genuinely, the 1st three manufacturers I looked at (Kef, PMC, Kii) just quote a power output and nothing else. I don't think there is an industry standard for power outputs of the amps in active speakers, it seems to me that they quote in whichever way they see fit.
Hi,

I examined the Kef X300 - and it seems probable that 50watts for the LF is a contiinuous rating - which is realistic fo rthe size of speaker and the class of amplifier. For PMC (2.2.5) states 150w RMS for LF etc. So they do provide them.

Regards,

Shadders.
So I have to look at pictures of the KEFs and guess, the PMCs don't mention load. So they don't provide them. I see you didn't mention the Kii's. I'm sure I could find many others that don't provide the specs the way you think they should.
Hi,

The two of the three manufacturers (I did not examine Kii) you provided have specifications and the seem realistic and accurate with regards to the power. The fact that the all aspects are not provided does not negate that the power specification is accurate.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

bigboss

Moderator
shadders said:
Escapism said:
Shadders, who are these newcomers you keep talking of? 
Hi,

Luckylion ??? was one - which is where i picked up on the statements of how bad passive speakers are. I will have to defer to comments by others after contributing to the Genelec thread about AVI owners - but on the Genelec thread - broken (re - passives) and power sapping crossovers - was misinforming the person looking to purchase speakers. From here - i picked up on the negativity of AVI owners to passive systems - misleading statements, and the promotion of measurements to support the AVI product positively, but rude behaviour when these measurements were challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.
Luckylion only mentioned that the DM10 was superior to his previous system. I don't recall a single post about luckylion slating all passive speakers in general. Can you quote that particular post please?
 

bigboss

Moderator
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
72
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0
bigboss said:
shadders said:
Escapism said:
Shadders, who are these newcomers you keep talking of?
Hi,

Luckylion ??? was one - which is where i picked up on the statements of how bad passive speakers are. I will have to defer to comments by others after contributing to the Genelec thread about AVI owners - but on the Genelec thread - broken (re - passives) and power sapping crossovers - was misinforming the person looking to purchase speakers. From here - i picked up on the negativity of AVI owners to passive systems - misleading statements, and the promotion of measurements to support the AVI product positively, but rude behaviour when these measurements were challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.
Luckylion only mentioned that the DM10 was superior to his previous system. I don't recall a single post about luckylion slating all passive speakers in general. Can you quote that particular post please?
I've basically stopped reading this thread because much of it has become a meaningless joke.

You are correct I've never made such a statement and to be accused of such is a blatant lie and again insulting. It makes me laugh when someone so hell bent on the need for others to produce true facts and 'believable' measurements to satisfy his argument either misquotes or simply makes stuff up.

I compared the AVI DM10 'package' because I belive it is a package to the components I had previously. They've replaced Roksan intergrated/power amps and PMC speakers. Shadders may like to quote the fact that I loved my Twenty 23's and that I thought I'd never part with them for the duration of their 20 year garantee period if he so desires but it wouldn't suit his argument. I also stated that I thought the amplification in my previous set up was the weak link.

I won't reply to him personally as it's a futile endeavour now and I'm bored with this thread.

All I will add is that the AVI's should be thought of as a package as well as quality speakers, a two box solution well capable of replacing several boxes. This alone makes them superb VFM. and that is a common sense approach if nothing else to those seeking a quality system.
 

Morgunner

New member
Aug 12, 2016
0
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0
Native_bon said:
Surely the AVI team has done enough marketing for their speakers to be noticed by professional recording studios. No?
I'd say no, they haven't. Just looking at them I'd say they're obviously for the home market. They have no EQ on board, no XLR (only for DM5 by request) and anything but portable. I'm a marketing professional and would not even try to reach the pros with a product like the DM10s. But put the drivers and electronics in pro enclosures with pro inputs and perhaps some sort of eq interface (as with most pro monitors) and voila. Who knows what the future will bring, I do believe the new owners are indeed looking at the pro market.

Native_bon said:
Which ever way, sounds like the avi's are extremely good value for money.
I doubt any of the thousands of owners would disagree.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
bigboss said:
shadders said:
Escapism said:
Shadders, who are these newcomers you keep talking of?
Hi,

Luckylion ??? was one - which is where i picked up on the statements of how bad passive speakers are. I will have to defer to comments by others after contributing to the Genelec thread about AVI owners - but on the Genelec thread - broken (re - passives) and power sapping crossovers - was misinforming the person looking to purchase speakers. From here - i picked up on the negativity of AVI owners to passive systems - misleading statements, and the promotion of measurements to support the AVI product positively, but rude behaviour when these measurements were challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.
Luckylion only mentioned that the DM10 was superior to his previous system. I don't recall a single post about luckylion slating all passive speakers in general. Can you quote that particular post please?
Hi,

My statement was Luckylion was a newcommer.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
Hi,

Quoting against 8 ohms or the actual impedance is the industry standard. That is how you can compare actives with other actives, and see if you are obtaining value for money. I never stated compare passive to actives.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
lpv said:
Wait a minute... somebody's not in bed!

Who's not in bed?

Shadders not in bed!

Don't worry Shaddy . It's time to go.

hi mate.. so you've spend that beautiful and sunny and hot day on a forum? what a waste.. did you tame the dragon? did you send a message to Avi headquarters?

btw. Genelec state peak power for their monitors.. for 6,5 inch one it's only 90W. and SPL are under 100..

time to go bed..
Hi,

OK - so Genelec state peak or short term power output - yet AVI quote 250w without stating it is short term power or peak which infers continuous, when in fact it is peak ??? As before, this is misleading.

Regars,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
luckylion100 said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
Escapism said:
Shadders, who are these newcomers you keep talking of?
Hi,

Luckylion ??? was one - which is where i picked up on the statements of how bad passive speakers are. I will have to defer to comments by others after contributing to the Genelec thread about AVI owners - but on the Genelec thread - broken (re - passives) and power sapping crossovers - was misinforming the person looking to purchase speakers. From here - i picked up on the negativity of AVI owners to passive systems - misleading statements, and the promotion of measurements to support the AVI product positively, but rude behaviour when these measurements were challenged.

Regards,

Shadders.
Luckylion only mentioned that the DM10 was superior to his previous system. I don't recall a single post about luckylion slating all passive speakers in general. Can you quote that particular post please?
I've basically stopped reading this thread because much of it has become a meaningless joke.

You are correct I've never made such a statement and to be accused of such is a blatant lie and again insulting. It makes me laugh when someone so hell bent on the need for others to produce true facts and 'believable' measurements to satisfy his argument either misquotes or simply makes stuff up.

I compared the AVI DM10 'package' because I belive it is a package to the components I had previously. They've replaced Roksan intergrated/power amps and PMC speakers. Shadders may like to quote the fact that I loved my Twenty 23's and that I thought I'd never part with them for the duration of their 20 year garantee period if he so desires but it wouldn't suit his argument. I also stated that I thought the amplification in my previous set up was the weak link.

I won't reply to him personally as it's a futile endeavour now and I'm bored with this thread.

All I will add is that the AVI's should be thought of as a package as well as quality speakers, a two box solution well capable of replacing several boxes. This alone makes them superb VFM. and that is a common sense approach if nothing else to those seeking a quality system.
Hi,

This is in regards to you being a newcomer. I have NEVER stated that you slated passives, therefore i have not lied. Please can you read the post which i have written to confirm, rather than someones elses misinterpretation.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ID.

New member
Feb 22, 2010
207
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0
shadders said:
lpv said:
Wait a minute... somebody's not in bed!

Who's not in bed?

Shadders not in bed!

Don't worry Shaddy . It's time to go.

hi mate.. so you've spend that beautiful and sunny and hot day on a forum? what a waste.. did you tame the dragon? did you send a message to Avi headquarters?

btw. Genelec state peak power for their monitors.. for 6,5 inch one it's only 90W. and SPL are under 100..

time to go bed..
Hi,

OK - so Genelec state peak or short term power output - yet AVI quote 250w without stating it is short term power or peak which infers continuous, when in fact it is peak ??? As before, this is misleading.

Regars,

Shadders.
Genelec

For my 8020Cs

Bass amplifier short term output power 20 W at 8 Ohm load

Treble amplifier short term output power: 20 W at 8 Ohm load

Long term output power is limited by driver unit protection circuitry

No indication what the impedence of the drivers is. So we get a mix. Peak output as well as quoting an 8 ohm load.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
ID. said:
shadders said:
lpv said:
Wait a minute... somebody's not in bed!

Who's not in bed?

Shadders not in bed!

Don't worry Shaddy . It's time to go.

hi mate.. so you've spend that beautiful and sunny and hot day on a forum? what a waste.. did you tame the dragon? did you send a message to Avi headquarters?

btw. Genelec state peak power for their monitors.. for 6,5 inch one it's only 90W. and SPL are under 100..

time to go bed..
Hi,

OK - so Genelec state peak or short term power output - yet AVI quote 250w without stating it is short term power or peak which infers continuous, when in fact it is peak ??? As before, this is misleading.

Regars,

Shadders.
Genelec

For my 8020Cs

Bass amplifier short term output power 20 W at 8 Ohm load

Treble amplifier short term output power: 20 W at 8 Ohm load

Long term output power is limited by driver unit protection circuitry

No indication what the impedence of the drivers is. So we get a mix. Peak output as well as quoting an 8 ohm load.
Hi,

Yes, the manufacturer states it is peak == short term output with a specific impedance, or could be the actual driver impedance. The important aspect is that you know it is peak or continuous.

The driver unit protection is a very important aspect.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
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0
20W peak, that's quite low.. did you notice any signs of distortion or clipping during higher level playback?
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
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0
guess what?

as far as I remember there was only one forum member who mentioned Avi specs recently ( let's say in the last month).. am I correct? or do you remember any more Avi owners which used Avi specs in any debate on WHF?
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
lpv said:
guess what?

as far as I remember there was only one forum member who mentioned Avi specs recently ( let's say in the last month).. am I correct? or do you remember any more Avi owners which used Avi specs in any debate on WHF?
Hi,

Yes, this thread others have mentioned and/or questioned them, not as a response to what I have written. In the Genelec thread others have discussed the specifications and other issues regarding the AVI speakers.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
0
0
can you tell post numbers in this thread as well as in Genelec thread where Avi DM10 amp spec was used as a selling point?
 

avole

New member
Jul 15, 2016
17
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0
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
I'm afraid you are incorrect. You certainly can (and should) compare active speakers with passive speakers this way.

Remember that an amplifier is an ampifier, irrespective of whether it will be fitted directly to the speaker drivers or not. It has a certain measured output into a certain load which it can sustain for long periods of time, but is also capable of sustaining short bursts of power, otherwise known as peak power. All amps are built this way.

Speaker drivers also have a maximum rated power, after which they will begin to break up. The load they present to the amplifier may be 6, 8 or 4 ohm, although in actual fact some can dip as low as 2 ohm. These loads provide degrees of difficulty for the amplifier, if you like. All passive speakers should, and generally do, give power and load ratings, for example 60W to 80W, 8 ohm. This figure is based on the speakers drivers used.

The crossover basically ensured that the individual driver works at maximum efficiency within its designed frequency range, and, amongst other things, limits the frequency each driver sees. Again, it doesn't matter whether the crossover is active or not, they all function the same way. That's a simplified picture, of course.

Now, a continuous power rating gives an idea of the power of the amplifier. It does change according to load - 50W into 6 ohm could be 45W into 8 ohm or 90W into 4 ohm. The figure does depend on amplifier design, but you get the idea. How you measure continuous power is a bit of a minefield and it is not uncommon for some makers to state lower figures than what the amplifier can actually handle, either for safety reasons or so they look good in reviews, if you believe the cynics.

That's why the continuous power rating, flawed though it may be, does give an idea of how an amplifier will perform with a given load. It was originally introduced in the US (I think) to prevent manufacturers using peak power figures to rate their amps. These figures were highly flattering, given peak power can be 5 times higher than continuous power, but ultimately misleading. Even now some amplifier manufacturers quote continuous power into 4 ohms as the figure always looks better - one French company only gives figures for 4 ohms, so their 100W is really only about 55W into 8 ohms, and not ideal to drive speakers which require 60 - 80W into 8 ohms.

So, you should not feel cheated with the 50W into 8 ohms, as that's (and this really is an approximation) 70 W into 6 ohms or 90W into 4 ohms. However, you should ask questions if a manufacturer uses some other yardstick instead, such as peak power or half peak power. For active speakers, then, continuous power figures, however flawed, are useful as they can give an idea of what to expect. AVI could easily provide more realistic figures, but they have chosen not to do so as it's another way of selling what they want people to believe is an exclusive niche product. Whether it has been successful is a different matter, and you would expect to see changes in marketing strategy if they are taken over and move into the mainstream.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
87
18,670
lpv said:
can you tell post numbers in this thread as well as in Genelec thread where Avi DM10 amp spec was used as a selling point?
Hi,

I have only challenged the specifications where they have been used to positively support the AVI product. If someone is to use those specifications to state the how good they are, and at the same time denigrate passive systems (broken, handicapped, power sapping crossover), then those specifications will be challenged. Denigrating other products or systems unfairly to promote the supported system is misleading. I did not state that they are used as a selling point, that is your statement.

All i have ever questioned is what is the continuous power of the amplifier in the AVI product. It is not fair to state a specific value if you do not know what it refers to - such as peak or continous, and whether or not it relates to the actual driver in the speaker. The AVI specifications state 250watts. Is this peak or continiuous ?.

Hence the requests for clarification. Stating 250watts to support the product, without knowing what it officially (documented) refers to is misleading.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
88
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0
Lies, damned lies, and hifi specifications.

If punters are buying aurally emotive products purely on the basis of their written specifications then they are simple fools. I suspect however that they like the sound of their chosen AVI speakers, so who cares about the numbers?

There are people on this forum who constantly tell me that my system sounds wank based upon its specification. I stopped caring a long time ago.
 

lpv

New member
Mar 14, 2013
47
0
0
and that's why I'm asking you to provide evidence to support your claims.. post numbers in this thread as well as Genelec thread where Avi owners used Avi DM10 amp specs as a selling point or positively support Avi product.
 

ID.

New member
Feb 22, 2010
207
0
0
lpv said:
20W peak, that's quite low.. did you notice any signs of distortion or clipping during higher level playback?
It does seem very low for peak power

my living room is quite small and they will eventually be moved to desktop duties.

They go loud enough for my small apartment, and louder than mini systems I've had, but if pushed it seem to get a little harsh and I turn them down. There can be a tendency to try and push small speakers to try and get bass that they're never going to be able to give you

I've never tried measuring SPL.

it may be that peak is quoted conservatively, but I couldn't begin to guess. I'd want to know what amp module they use.

For my Adams the power is quoted for RMS and peak (music), but no impedance value is given.
 

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