AVI ADM9s: breakthrough or too much hype?

[hoopsontoast]

He is entitled to his wrong opinion

Why, thankyou.

I am actually puzzled by your reaction to the ADMs though, I know from reading posts you've made that you appreciate SCM19s, I've compared them with the ADMs back to back in my livingroom and the over-riding impression both I and my cousin had was how similar the sound was. I'd have thought the ADMs would be right up your street.

Anyways, I apologise for my earlier post. It was a childish reaction.

Yes, I do indeed like the ATC SCM7, SCM10 and SCM19. They are however flawed but I feel have some qualaties that set them apart from other speakers with the expense of other atributes.

Now, I like those speakers not because they are passive, that they have a particular type of mid bass driver or even a particular design. The reason is they all seem to do the least wrong at their price point.

The SCM7/SCM10 in particular are dynamically limited, and lack much bass below 50Hz, dont sound their best at very low volumes but they do have a very transparent mid-range, very good integration between the mid-bass and tweeter and have very tight bass that helps with room integration.

The SCM19's are much the same but with added bass extension and dynamic ability at the expense of the mid-bass/tweeter integration and soundstage definition.

The same with my current speakers, the Magnepans. They dont have much output at all below 50Hz, they are difficult to place in a room, the vertical dispersion is terrible and they sound rubbish off-axis But they do do a lot that most other speakers dont. (Soundstage width, height and depth, midrange expression like vocals and super tight bass)

They do have one design feature that is a selling point, that is the dipole raditation, which like others (Quad ESL's and Apogees as well as true dipole cone speakers) has its own unique advantages and disadvantages that cant be matched by other types of speakers, active or passive.

I heard the original ADM9 (or 9.1 I cant remember) at the first Scalford hall, and much like yourself, I just found them underwhelming. They did not sound bad, but IMO they did not sound any different to most run of the mill 2-way 6" mid bass ported speakers. They did nothing that stood out to me that they excelled in.

Its all a compromise.

 

[plastic penguin]

Yes you're right, I do spend a lot of time pontif...pontif... expressing an opinion, what else are you suppose to do on a hi-fi forum, in a hi-fi section? Give a weather update? discuss the mating rituals of exotic insects, perhaps?

These are only reasonable questions given the thread.

If you enjoy pontificating, why not give a homily why you're at it?

There would be no point, anything I say would be pretty meaningless given neither of us have any idea what sort of sound I like relative to you, or what any descriptive terms would mean to me relative to you. I think it would be fair to say I visit this forum for different reasons to you - I don't view 'hifi' itself as a hobby. If you are genuinely curious about actives, listen to some - preferrably in your own room.

If it is meaningless then this forum meaningless. The whole point of a hi-fi forum, I thought, was for advice on issues such as actives, passives and egoes.

 

[Craig M.]

and much like yourself, I just found them underwhelming. They did not sound bad, but IMO they did not sound any different to most run of the mill 2-way 6" mid bass ported speakers. They did nothing that stood out to me that they excelled in.

Its all a compromise.

I think you mis-understand me. I think the ADMs are excellent, and at the price I think they are unbeatable when talking about new products. I've compared them to quite a few similarly priced standmounts, they easily hold their own and that's before we get into the fact they include an amp and dac as well. Maybe you should listen to some again. :shifty:

 

[Craig M.]

If it is meaningless then this forum meaningless. The whole point of a hi-fi forum, I thought, was for advice on issues such as actives, passives and egoes.

Of course it is meaningless. Given how many times it is mentioned on this forum (by yourself and others) that hifi is subjective to the individual, how am I supposed to describe what I'm hearing and expect it to have any relevance to you. I could talk about how natural and real my speakers sound and you could say exactly the same about yours, but without any shared reference it is meaningless. I'm having a particularly bad day, so I know most my posts seem needlessly grumpy but even so, this is a view I always hold. Subjective descriptions of sound are pretty much worthless.

 

[plastic penguin]

If it is meaningless then this forum meaningless. The whole point of a hi-fi forum, I thought, was for advice on issues such as actives, passives and egoes.

Of course it is meaningless. Given how many times it is mentioned on this forum (by yourself and others) that hifi is subjective to the individual, how am I supposed to describe what I'm hearing and expect it to have any relevance to you. I could talk about how natural and real my speakers sound and you could say exactly the same about yours, but without any shared reference it is meaningless. I'm having a particularly bad day, so I know most my posts seem needlessly grumpy but even so, this is a view I always hold. Subjective descriptions of sound are pretty much worthless.

Yes, there have been a number of threads about actives, but I deliberately avoid them for the reasons I gave earlier, namely I know nothing about them, apart from the amp is is in one of the monitors.

Trying to obtain constructive advice from active owners is an arduous task in itself.

No, I don't want to buy any, no harm, however, in finding out more to weigh up the plusses and minuses before pestering dealers. In fact I couldn't name a local dealer that stocks actives.

 

[moon]

Yes you're right, I do spend a lot of time pontif...pontif... expressing an opinion, what else are you suppose to do on a hi-fi forum, in a hi-fi section? Give a weather update? discuss the mating rituals of exotic insects, perhaps?

These are only reasonable questions given the thread.

If you enjoy pontificating, why not give a homily why you're at it?

There would be no point, anything I say would be pretty meaningless given neither of us have any idea what sort of sound I like relative to you, or what any descriptive terms would mean to me relative to you. I think it would be fair to say I visit this forum for different reasons to you - I don't view 'hifi' itself as a hobby. If you are genuinely curious about actives, listen to some - preferrably in your own room.

If it is meaningless then this forum meaningless. The whole point of a hi-fi forum, I thought, was for advice on issues such as actives, passives and egoes.

it is, it's just that Willy Waggling tends to get in the way the whole time.

 

[AL13N]

I know nothing about them, apart from the amp is is in one of the monitors.

Most active monitors utilise four power amps - two in each monitor, one for each driver. Larger active monitors and floorstanders can utilise more depending on the number of drivers used.

Of course, you could have a multichannel amplifier in one location (whether within a single monitor or an external box) powering the drivers, but this is not the general practice.

As for auditioning the technology yourself, you could try Morgan Audio who provide a 30 day home trial. They can also arrange to have the speakers sent to a "local dealer" for auditioning.

http://www.morgan-audio.co.uk/index.php/buy-active-speakers.html

Personally, I think nothing beats listening to speakers in your own home. After all, you're not listening to speakers but speakers interacting with the room/position they're placed in.

 

[plastic penguin]

I know nothing about them, apart from the amp is is in one of the monitors.

Most active monitors utilise four power amps - two in each monitor, one for each driver. Larger active monitors and floorstanders utilise more depending on the number of drivers used.

Of course, you could have a multichannel amplifier in one location (whether within a single monitor or an external box) powering the drivers, but this is not the general practice.

As for auditioning the technology yourself, you could try Morgan Audio who provide a 30 day home trial. They can also arrange to have the speakers sent to a "local dealer" for auditioning.

http://www.morgan-audio.co.uk/index.php/buy-active-speakers.html

Personally, I think nothing beats listening to speakers in your own home. After all, you're not listening to speakers but speakers interacting with the room/position they're placed in.

Thank you, AL13N. That's little more like it.

You and Messiah have given levelled information.

 

[Craig M.]

Ok, pp, if you really want to know what the differences are as well as the potential advantages, then read the following:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro2_e.html

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

From the second link you should maybe concentrate on sections "2.2 the active solution" and "3.0 conclusion". Both links explain the technical differences in fairly simple terms, and also what this is likely to mean for the impact on the sound.

If you want to hear it for yourself, you should see if there is a pro-audio shop nearby that stocks Genelec, Mackie, Event, Quested, etc.

 

[Alec]

So, PP, you don't want to buy any, but you want to "bother"* a dealer at some point (to no end t seems)...but you keep asking for information which can have no impact at all on you going to a dealer and listening...

EDIT * I mean "pester".

 

[chebby]

I know nothing about them, apart from the amp is is in one of the monitors.

Yes, there have been a number of threads about actives, but I deliberately avoid them...

I can understand that (given the history of such threads) but I cannot understand how you have not come across the concept of active speaker systems in your 30 odd years of interest in hi-fi.

Linn and Naim made active systems together (and then independently) for almost the last 35 years. Then there was Meridian who launched their M1 active speaker system in the late 1970s and have been making active speaker systems ever since alongside their more 'conventional' seperates.

Many other manufacturers (including Spendor, Rogers, Quad) made various active systems available to both studios and consumers and they were regularly featured too.

I remember back in the 1980s that active speakers were regularly discussed, explained and reviewed in all the mainstream hi-fi magazines. In fact there was a period of time when it seemed Bob Stuart and Allen Boothroyd couldn't be kept out of the magazines explaining the concept.

Two of my local dealers at the time regularly had Linn/Naim or Meridian active systems on demo. And active systems weren't exactly hard to find at hi-fi shows either (nor people to explain them).

I can only imagine that you "deliberately avoided them" for 30 years or more (I thinks that's how long you claim to have had an interest in hi-fi).

It was never controversial or difficult to understand or obscure as a subject. As I said before, most of the companies making them (or parts of them) also made conventional hi-fi too. (As ATC, Linn, Naim and others still do.)

I never recall any of the 'hoohah' we've become used to in the last few years (since AVI ADM9s) so what was stopping you before that?

 

[Craig M.]

I believe you are in Surrey, pp? In which case this place in Guilford might prove a good place to hear some.

I await with interest your thoughts on the links I have posted.

They are here again, in case you've missed them.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro2_e.html

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

They should only take about 10 minutes to read.

 

[Phileas]

They are also a bit dynamically compressed, which doesn't help.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong.

This is what I was talking about. Someone has a different view, the speakers sounded OK (myself included) and gets told they are wrong as it does not level with their opinion.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's empirically verifiable.

 

[plastic penguin]

So, PP, you don't want to buy any, but you want to "bother"* a dealer at some point (to no end t seems)...but you keep asking for information which can have no impact at all on you going to a dealer and listening...

EDIT * I mean "pester".

Alec, you really don't read posts very well. No, I DON'T want to bother a dealer because I have NO serious ambition to purchase a ACTIVE set-up, and actives have never entered my sphere of hi-fi interest. However, because, like you and many others on here, I am a hi-fi fan would like to know the ins 'n' outs of actives, including the benefits and the shortfalls of such a set-up.

If you can't give constructive advice then don't reply. No-one is press ganging you into replying, much less the spikey replies.

You been like this since I slagged off REM when they split up, even though I offered a olive branch. Get over it!

 

[plastic penguin]

I believe you are in Surrey, pp? In which case this place in Guilford might prove a good place to hear some.

I await with interest your thoughts on the links I have posted.

They are here again, in case you've missed them.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/active_speakers_intro2_e.html

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

They should only take about 10 minutes to read.

I'll have a butchers later once dinner is done and dusted with...

 

[Alec]

So, PP, you don't want to buy any, but you want to "bother"* a dealer at some point (to no end t seems)...but you keep asking for information which can have no impact at all on you going to a dealer and listening...

EDIT * I mean "pester".

Alec, you really don't read posts very well. No, I DON'T want to bother a dealer because I have NO serious ambition to purchase a ACTIVE set-up, and actives have never entered my sphere of hi-fi interest. However, because, like you and many others on here, I am a hi-fi fan would like to know the ins 'n' outs of actives, including the benefits and the shortfalls of such a set-up.

If you can't give constructive advice then don't reply. No-one is press ganging you into replying, much less the spikey replies.

You been like this since I slagged off REM when they split up, even though I offered a olive branch. Get over it!

Hehehe I forgot that was you actually. Figures.

Thanks for the commentary on how I post. In what way do I not post very well? You did mention going to pester a dealer. I can read, I assure you.

Incidentally, this is cobblers. I can't remember speaking to you much at all since then.

 

[char_lotte]

I'm listening to them now...and looking at them. This is a genuine question, in what way are they revolutionary ?

I can see nothing material wise that is Earth stopping. The wadding looks exactly the same as the stuff my gerbil used to sleep in years ago. Amplifier distortion specs are equally as "wooly" ....but don't look any more impressive than my Cyrus monos.

There are no indicators regarding volume etc. I'm not being confrontational in any way....however such lofty claims require errr lofty explanations and not willy waving thank you very much.

 

[chebby]

I'm listening to them now...and looking at them. This is a genuine question, in what way are they revolutionary ? I can see nothing material wise that is Earth stopping. The wadding looks exactly the same as the stuff my gerbil used to sleep in years ago. Amplifier distortion specs are equally as "wooly" ....but don't look any more impressive than my Cyrus monos. There are no indicators regarding volume etc. I'm not being confrontational in any way....however such lofty claims require errr lofty explanations and not willy waving thank you very much.

The 'revolutionary' bit was sticking a DAC & remote controlled pre-amp in the box along with all the usual/conventional stuff (electronic x-overs and amps) common to all active speakers since way-back-when.

 

[hoopsontoast]

They are also a bit dynamically compressed, which doesn't help.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong.

This is what I was talking about. Someone has a different view, the speakers sounded OK (myself included) and gets told they are wrong as it does not level with their opinion.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's empirically verifiable.

Ok :read: I guess I missed that memo.

 

[Craig M.]

I'm listening to them now...and looking at them. This is a genuine question, in what way are they revolutionary ?

Has there been anything that did the same thing in consumer hifi before? I mean in regard to putting everything in the speakers, dac, pre amp, active crossover, power amps? Also a genuine question as I don't know. Other than that it just seems like correct implementation of proven technologies. Where are you getting 'revolutionary' from? Is that something Avi claim?

Edit: Chebby beat me to it.

 

[plastic penguin]

So, PP, you don't want to buy any, but you want to "bother"* a dealer at some point (to no end t seems)...but you keep asking for information which can have no impact at all on you going to a dealer and listening...

EDIT * I mean "pester".

Alec, you really don't read posts very well. No, I DON'T want to bother a dealer because I have NO serious ambition to purchase a ACTIVE set-up, and actives have never entered my sphere of hi-fi interest. However, because, like you and many others on here, I am a hi-fi fan would like to know the ins 'n' outs of actives, including the benefits and the shortfalls of such a set-up.

If you can't give constructive advice then don't reply. No-one is press ganging you into replying, much less the spikey replies.

You been like this since I slagged off REM when they split up, even though I offered a olive branch. Get over it!

Thanks for the commentary on how I post. In what way do I not post very well?

Incidentally, this is cobblers. I can't remember speaking to you much at all since then.

Never said you do not post very well. I said "you don't READ posts very well" because if you did you'd know I said (several times on this thread) I don't want to pester a dealer for something I'm not buying.

If you can't remember speaking to me much, why change a habit of a lifetime?

 

[Alec]

"Before pestering dealers" kind of implies you intend to...Otherwise, you got me (apart from the nonsense about how i have been toward you for the last (nearly) 13 months, you legend).

 

[John Duncan]

I can see this going belly up...

 

[char_lotte]

I'm listening to them now...and looking at them. This is a genuine question, in what way are they revolutionary ?

Has there been anything that did the same thing in consumer hifi before? I mean in regard to putting everything in the speakers, dac, pre amp, active crossover, power amps? Also a genuine question as I don't know. Other than that it just seems like correct implementation of proven technologies. Where are you getting 'revolutionary' from? Is that something Avi claim?

Edit: Chebby beat me to it.

Just picking up the general hyperbole Craig, as that is a reason I bought them. There are many claims being bandied about about them , but I guess if the main reason for them being lauded is that they are all in one then that puts it all in perspective.

 

[Andrew Everard]

The 'revolutionary' bit was sticking a DAC & remote controlled pre-amp in the box along with all the usual/conventional stuff (electronic x-overs and amps) common to all active speakers since way-back-when.

Yes, this was revolutionary (when Meridian did it in the D600 speakers, sometime around the end of the 1980s).