Audiophile?

[steve_1979]

So, according to all your kind selfs, an Audiophile could be a misguided fool, a snob, an enthusiast, a pervert, golden eared, cloth eared and more.

Love it

I've been guilty of all of those things at one time or another. Does that make me an audiophile?

 

[Jota180]

Well the bible for the English language, the Oxford English dictionary, give the meaning of 'audiophile' as "a Hi-Fi enthusiast".

If we look at that closer, Hi-Fi is short for high fidelity and diving back into the Oxford English, our language bible, 'fidelity' means - "The degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced".

So, certain areas of Hi-Fi are not as 'Fi' as others. Added distortion is not fidelity, it's is moving away from fidelity. Some people may prefer how it sounds but they cannot say it's as high fidelity as something that does not, all other things being equal, add as much distortion.

That's great.

Except that the recording, mixing and reproduction of music, either live or from a studio, is very far from being a science.

What they are doing is using science and equipment made by scientists and engineers. Every piece of the chain uses and relies on science and the effects are measurable by scientific equipment.

What people prefer is another matter but the definition of the word 'fidelity' is not up for debate.

 

[TrevC]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

 

[TrevC]

...Your stance is based on commonly available measurements above 0.1 watts, which equate to volumes at which I almost never listen at...

You never use more than 0.1 watts?

Really? *nea*

Almost never.

Based on a series of measurements I've done with a calibrated sound meter.

Eh? Not based on an AC voltmeter connected to the speakers?

I'm not convinced my AC voltmeter would respond fast enough to capture the transient peaks that I get on well recorded music.

But that's the only way to measure the input wattage to a speaker. Your sound meter reading is (obviously) meaningless in this context.

No it's not meaningless. I know the efficiency of my speakers. I know how many dbs drop-off on average I get between 1 metre from my speakers and my listening position. I know how many dbs I'm getting at my listening position and therefore how many watts are being fed to my speakers, within a reasonable tolerance.

My multi-meter on the other hand is fine for measuring steady state AC voltages. It's hopeless at measuring non-steady state AC voltages.

Therefore my sound meter gives me a more accurate indication than my AC voltmeter of how many watts are being fed to my speakers when I listen to music.

Have you ever tried using an inexpensive digital multimeter to measure the voltages across your speaker terminals when you've got music playing through them?

Use a test tone. or get a moving coil meter. You can't measure the input power to a loudspeaker by measuring the sound output from it. Unless you've previously tested and measured both.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Well the bible for the English language, the Oxford English dictionary, give the meaning of 'audiophile' as "a Hi-Fi enthusiast".

If we look at that closer, Hi-Fi is short for high fidelity and diving back into the Oxford English, our language bible, 'fidelity' means - "The degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced".

So, certain areas of Hi-Fi are not as 'Fi' as others. Added distortion is not fidelity, it's is moving away from fidelity. Some people may prefer how it sounds but they cannot say it's as high fidelity as something that does not, all other things being equal, add as much distortion.

That's great.

Except that the recording, mixing and reproduction of music, either live or from a studio, is very far from being a science.

What they are doing is using science and equipment made by scientists and engineers. Every piece of the chain uses and relies on science and the effects are measurable by scientific equipment.

What people prefer is another matter but the definition of the word 'fidelity' is not up for debate.

Yet the recorded sound that is committed to master is governed by the sound engineers ears - not a scientifically predetermined target.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

......and musically accurate, which is why many musicians prefer them.

 

[TrevC]

Well the bible for the English language, the Oxford English dictionary, give the meaning of 'audiophile' as "a Hi-Fi enthusiast".

If we look at that closer, Hi-Fi is short for high fidelity and diving back into the Oxford English, our language bible, 'fidelity' means - "The degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced".

So, certain areas of Hi-Fi are not as 'Fi' as others. Added distortion is not fidelity, it's is moving away from fidelity. Some people may prefer how it sounds but they cannot say it's as high fidelity as something that does not, all other things being equal, add as much distortion.

That's great.

Except that the recording, mixing and reproduction of music, either live or from a studio, is very far from being a science.

What they are doing is using science and equipment made by scientists and engineers. Every piece of the chain uses and relies on science and the effects are measurable by scientific equipment.

What people prefer is another matter but the definition of the word 'fidelity' is not up for debate.

Yet the recorded sound that is committed to master is governed by the sound engineers ears - not a scientifically predetermined target.

It's the job of hifi equipment to reproduce that sound as accurately as possible. That part is science.

 

[TrevC]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

......and musically accurate, which is why many musicians prefer them.

An electric guitar perhaps. The distortion produced by an overdriven valve amplifier like a Marshall creates is the sound many guitarists want, but that is neither high fidelity or accurate.

 

[Infiniteloop]

......and musically accurate, which is why many musicians prefer them.

An Audiophile is someone who goes on about the equipment instead of going on about the music.

Quite.

I have no axe to grind either way here since I enjoy my music through both Valve and SS Amplifiers.

My gripe is with those who summarily dismiss Valve Amplifiers as being generally 'inferior'.

 

[CnoEvil]

......and musically accurate, which is why many musicians prefer them.

An Audiophile is someone who goes on about the equipment instead of going on about the music.

 

[CnoEvil]

My gripe is with those who summarily dismiss Valve Amplifiers as being generally 'inferior'.

They are usually more worried about how a system measures, than how real it sounds

 

[Infiniteloop]

Well the bible for the English language, the Oxford English dictionary, give the meaning of 'audiophile' as "a Hi-Fi enthusiast".

If we look at that closer, Hi-Fi is short for high fidelity and diving back into the Oxford English, our language bible, 'fidelity' means - "The degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced".

So, certain areas of Hi-Fi are not as 'Fi' as others. Added distortion is not fidelity, it's is moving away from fidelity. Some people may prefer how it sounds but they cannot say it's as high fidelity as something that does not, all other things being equal, add as much distortion.

That's great.

Except that the recording, mixing and reproduction of music, either live or from a studio, is very far from being a science.

What they are doing is using science and equipment made by scientists and engineers. Every piece of the chain uses and relies on science and the effects are measurable by scientific equipment.

What people prefer is another matter but the definition of the word 'fidelity' is not up for debate.

Yet the recorded sound that is committed to master is governed by the sound engineers ears - not a scientifically predetermined target.

It's the job of hifi equipment to reproduce that sound as accurately as possible. That part is science.

It's a pity then, isn't it, that at the end of the HiFi chain are loudspeakers which introduce massively more distortion, and artifacts from room interactions, than any other device (Valve Amps included)?

- That part is science too.

 

[lindsayt]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

 

[lindsayt]

Use a test tone. or get a moving coil meter. You can't measure the input power to a loudspeaker by measuring the sound output from it. Unless you've previously tested and measured both.

Using a test tone would not give me any sort of clear indication how many watts my amplifiers are feeding my speakers when I listen to music.

Yes the sound output vs power input has been previously tested and measured. I thought I'd made that point clear already in my previous posts? That's why I can get a pretty good indication of the input power to my speakers by measuring the sound output from them. It's not rocket science.

And there's no way I'm going to spend money on a better voltmeter, just to prove an obtuse point on a hi-fi forum. My audiophile tendencies don't go that far.

 

[TrevC]

Use a test tone. or get a moving coil meter. You can't measure the input power to a loudspeaker by measuring the sound output from it. Unless you've previously tested and measured both.

Using a test tone would not give me any sort of clear indication how many watts my amplifiers are feeding my speakers when I listen to music.

Yes the sound output vs power input has been previously tested and measured. I thought I'd made that point clear already in my previous posts? That's why I can get a pretty good indication of the input power to my speakers by measuring the sound output from them. It's not rocket science.

And there's no way I'm going to spend money on a better voltmeter, just to prove an obtuse point on a hi-fi forum. My audiophile tendencies don't go that far.

You raised the power thing in the first place. Couldn't you use the same gear that you used in the previous test and measure again?

 

[TrevC]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

 

[Vladimir]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

If they were originally voiced to work with small valve amps, they might sound bright and 'transistory' with a 60W SS amp.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

If they were originally voiced to work with small valve amps, they might sound bright and 'transistory' with a 60W SS amp.

- Or pretty accurate perhaps?

 

[TrevC]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

If they were originally voiced to work with small valve amps, they might sound bright and 'transistory' with a 60W SS amp.

Or they might not, whatever transistory means. Might improve them.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

... because listening to an accurate sine wave is really important, - isn't it?

 

[Vladimir]

I'm sure lindsayt compared and hopefully will share with us what the differences are.

 

[TrevC]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

... because listening to an accurate sine wave is really important, - isn't it?

If it can't accurately reproduce a sine wave it can't accurately reproduce a more complex waveform like a flute or piano either.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Which are? (at 1 micro-watt to 1 milliwatt)

If you're going to be scientific in your hi-fi selection, you might as well base your decisions on proper science.

And what are the distortion figures of your speakers? And what's the size and nature (IE oscilloscope plot) of the distortion when you feed your speakers with a single cycle 60 hz test tone?

Valve amplifiers are generally inferior to SS ones. It's like insisting a Morris Minor is as good as a Ford Focus to suggest otherwise.

Absolute Rubbish.

Nope. Easily demonstrated proven fact. Valve amplifiers guzzle energy, require frequent replacements, and have far higher levels of distortion. That's not to say they can't sound nice, by the way.

How many times do I have to ask this?

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread where I asked you to provide evidence to properly back up you statement.

Evidence which, so far, you have not provided.

And, by the way, would you like to hazard a guess as to how many watts my 8 watt SET Monoblocks consume. If your going to make a statement like "Valve amplifiers guzzle energy" let's at least be scientific about this and state how many watts a variety of amplifiers actually consumes.

It's approximately double the maximum audio power output plus the heaters. For distortion look at the specs of your amp and compare with any budget SS amp. A SET amp can't even reproduce an accurate sine wave at any sort of power. Have you tried your speakers with a budget amp?

... because listening to an accurate sine wave is really important, - isn't it?

If it can't accurately reproduce a sine wave it can't accurately reproduce a more complex waveform like a flute or piano either.

If that was true, nobody would listen to a Valve Amplifier, so quite clearly, it isn't.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[Infiniteloop]

Audio Research, Audio Note, Unison Research, Pathos, McIntosh, Balanced Audio technologies, Jadis, Audion, etc. must have it all wrong then.