Arendal sub 1 impressions

[nugget2014]

Now i have the sub setup i am listening without doing auto cal (i just stuck it in the corner) i am already impressed without it being setup the best it can be. I deem it pointless doing auto cal and listening for an hour just to rerun it tomorrow after my speakers are installed.

So far it already outclasses the dali in music at moderate volumes. Will report back over weekend with more info

 

[nugget2014]

Quick question regarding phase. Should my arendal be set halfway to 90 and my ikon sub 0? Since i have ported bookshelf speakers as ellis mentioned.

 

[ellisdj]

you need to measure to check ideally - bass in room is a real pain.

0 or 180 will only make a difference in a different range of the output - try both and go by ear - best you can do.

are you putting the second sub in already, seems hasty

 

[nugget2014]

i'm not happy with my main seating position because of the LFE

some frequencies are upto 10db louder sitting in the middle, compared to sitting on the left seat, then 2-3 more db by sitting in the far right seat. there is no seemingly easy fix for this

sitting in the middle means i am off axis to my tv, and it's not ideal because of the surround speakers being closer to the right which is near the ceiling and further away from the left speaker as well as the centre being off axis which sounds a bit weird for dialogue, and the front left will be unhearable basically when the right is dominating the middle seat.

1 foot back or forward or even left to where the fireplace is makes like 1db difference not much at all.

is there any way to help compensate for nulls in room at all?

i could try sitting in the middle seat, but sitting directly in the middle of the tv is nice, and have similar distance between surround speakers. and i sit on the left just out of habit and finding it difficult to break the tradition..

 

[Frank Harvey]

How did the Dali compare in this respect?

 

[ellisdj]

Nugget mate that is the power of room acoustics.

It doesn't matter what sub you buy 500 or 5000000 it will be exactly the same.

Your room has more influence on your bass over any other factor that is just how it is.

The reality your room is much much much too small to get good bass naturally. It would need to be 40x40x40

Plus you sit in the middle of the room so the area of least pressure that's why moving a foot makes little difference.
Try on the back or front wall and the difference will be much larger.

There are things that can be done but before you don't your level of understanding and measurement needs to go up a level.
As has been advised before the next step is measuring with REW.

Just using an spl metre is ok but it won't show you what you need. Rew is amazing software and the fact it's free is just silly.

Once you see the reality of what you have got then you can make a plan to try and solve the issues best you can. However this is not easy.

However you have realised you have the issues same as everyone and want to fix them first step towards much much better sound at home. Good man

 

[nugget2014]

How did the Dali compare in this respect?

raw numbers i dont know, but the sub 1 beats the dali at every frequency and sounds better.

i'll try both subs on one more time to see if it has any influence on the null by even a couple db.

if it doesn't i dont know what i can do, only option really is REW to see what i can learn. i'm not moving seating position and sub placement doesnt really make a difference

 

[nugget2014]

is it true a null is caused by the sound bouncing off the back wall and meeting in the middle of the room thus cancelling it out or something?

bass traps or absorbers etc, are they effective and would they work on getting rid of the null if i placed some at the back wall, how expensive is it to buy and are they easy to install or would i need someone to come and do that also?

 

[ellisdj]

Nugget sound bounces off your walls ceiling floor

Some is lost some absorbed most of it rings in the room.

Using acoustic treatment does help smooth the freq response but in all honesty you need a lot to reduce big deeps in the bass

What it does do is reduce your sound decay time which gives a much tighter more focused and defined sound. Much better. It also stops flutter echo which skews imaging

It can make the room sound much larger as well.

To actually fix bass freq response issues it's actually easier to use multi subs in different spots in the room.

Setting this up accurately requires a lot of skill and measuring.

Start with the measuring try and get an understanding of your rooms acoustics and your MLP freq response.

Then you can make a plan to try and fix it. Otherwise it's educated guess work and there is a big difference

GIK are not cheap panels but they are excellent and they give free advice. You can diy but you won't know what your getting in terms of performance if you diy them

 

[ellisdj]

Nugget 2 Videos for you.

Video 1 bass traps vs Multi Subs - bear in mind these guys are talking about room acoustics - listen to the horrensdous echo on their voices, that is not a sign of good acoustics at all in my opinion

Video 2 - Bass Optimisation - using multiple subs to balance room modes

This is quite technical and you might not get this straight away but its a good video

 

[ellisdj]

In the bass optimisation video you will see I posted comments on there because for all the guys smart ass attitude he has missed he does have ringing in his room

This is present quite clearly in his all subs waterfall graph - he has great work with the freq repsonse but the bass decay is very uneven in time domain. He is glossing over that crack being a wise ass.

If he had employed good treatment he would have even decay right through that excellent freq response which means his sound would be tighter and more focused again.

He also has so much 30hz and below ringing that anything with a resinant freq that low like windows doors glass etc will rattle its ass off - maybe he thinks that is good?

They are clever guys on that site - they do some great stuff but I dont think they have it nailed yet because of their attitude towards room treatment. Just my opinion of course - still a good video for what it shows. I might have to go that route myself after I add more specific treatment to my room first becasue to me this is a better initla approach to room acoustic problems if you will have them in your room

 

[nugget2014]

Will try placement before moving onto the idea of rew

 

[ellisdj]

Nugget REW is how you decide placement, phase, levels, acoustics, everything.

Its the difference between knowing, then acting and then getting great sound - or guessing and 9/10 not getting it.

It really is as simple as that dude it will be the best thing you ever learn to use for this hobby.

Every enthusiast should know how to use it, every professional should be an advanced user

 

[nugget2014]

Nugget REW is how you decide placement, phase, levels, acoustics, everything.

Its the difference between knowing, then acting and then getting great sound - or guessing and 9/10 not getting it.

It really is as simple as that dude it will be the best thing you ever learn to use for this hobby.

Every enthusiast should know how to use it, every professional should be an advanced user 

I turned both subs on and the null doesn't seem to be as bad as before.

3db difference between seats with the biggest difference of 5db at 45hz. And some frequencies are the same such as 30hz

This doesnt seem the biggest difference..

Should i put up with it for now? Dont know

 

[ellisdj]

Have you run auddesey again with the 2 subs on

You should also test auddessey off then auddessy on to see how much its eqing your room errors

 

[nugget2014]

Have you run auddesey again with the 2 subs on

You should also test auddessey off then auddessy on to see how much its eqing your room errors

My latest auddessy calibration is with just the sub 1 not dali.

I have done the test tones with no auddeysey but not much difference about 2db difference across most frequencies.

I did it a little differently and it says place the microphone at main listening position. On the picture it said place in middle seat of a 3 seat sofa as example if that makes sense

My left seat was first then middle then right. Am i allowed to do it that way or would it mess with the calibration?

 

[nugget2014]

Should i run auddeysey again with both subs on this time then?

The first time i tried i had the cable in the wrong input so it didnt work stupid me!

 

[ellisdj]

You definately need to run it again with both subs mate - always if you make a change of that ilk you need to run it again

Normally the first measurement is used for distances and levels etc so you want that in your MLP not the seat next to you, although in fairness it will be very similar, but similar is not what we want - we want correct

I dont know auddessey and how it sets up - but I am pretty sure the first measurement will be at the MLP despite the picture in the manual etc

 

[nugget2014]

You definately need to run it again with both subs mate - always if you make a change of that ilk you need to run it again

Normally the first measurement is used for distances and levels etc so you want that in your MLP not the seat next to you, although in fairness it will be very similar, but similar is not what we want - we want correct

I dont know auddessey and how it sets up - but I am pretty sure the first measurement will be at the MLP despite the picture in the manual etc

alright, will run it again. wont be until monday now as it's too hot and i'm on holiday tomorrow for a few days. will report back then!

 

[ellisdj]

Your still in guess work land - you will never settle if you are after perfection.

Get onto REW - you will see how imperfect things are then you can approach certain bits within your power / budget.

I have just ordered 6 of these becasuse even with 20ish acoustic panels in my room I have made mistakes and havent got enough absorption in certain ranges I want to tighten up my bass in the low end and I have huge Freq response problems at the minute in the bass.

 

[nugget2014]

Ive been so busy trying out the new sub ive forgot about the goal what I've been trying to achieve

Impact.

I take it a sub of my calibre isn't good enough to get that kick in the chest feeling with some frequencies? What spl is needed for that effect?

 

[nugget2014]

Not sure yet but might sell the sub 1 and get the s1500 from PSA like ellis mentioned also before.

Just wondering if the sub will worthwhile getting if i never go above certain listening volumes. And will it give the kick in the chest effect?

I wont be able to go dual s1500s as they are so expensive but sub 1 duals are more of a possibility for me.

And i think duals would outperform the s1500 or come very close apart from the extension the psa offers

 

[nugget2014]

Cant afford the psa. Sticking with the arendal and will go dual next year. They quoted 1000 for the returned s1500. Ex demo unit has since gone.

 

[ellisdj]

That's a shame nugget but a second psa would probably have been too expensive for you in the future so duals would have been hard for you and likely still necessary.

I have said all along you need a lot of bass and you are realising this first hand. Getting the sort of bass your after is not easy.

This might be because of bass issues in your room.

Next job on your list keep your money in your pocket and start learning to use REW.

 

[nugget2014]

Next up is REW will try within. Next fortnight to do it.

To do the basics do i need a microphone?

Someone suggested on avforums some proper £80 mic that works for rew umix or something. I am willing to do that if i know what it will do for me and my room. But if it would tell me to move my seating position and setup again then not doing it as paid huge amount for installation and only other place for my sofa is back wall.