PMC... are they that good?

[Pulpdiction]

Recently demoed some PMC Twenty5 23i - £4.5k and thought they were awful, listening to them against the new Prodigy 5 at £2k there was less detail, but they were far more listenable.

Both were absolutely blown out of the water by the Neat Mystique Classic at £2.4k - literally half the price of the Twenty5 23i and in a blind test I'd say the price should be the other way round.

 

[Noddy]

Recently demoed some PMC Twenty5 23i - £4.5k and thought they were awful, listening to them against the new Prodigy 5 at £2k there was less detail, but they were far more listenable.

Both were absolutely blown out of the water by the Neat Mystique Classic at £2.4k - literally half the price of the Twenty5 23i and in a blind test I'd say the price should be the other way round.

I do wonder if PMC Prodigy speakers are tuned to suit older listeners whose ears lack sensitivity as frequency increases:

PMC prodigy1 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report The baby of PMC's prodigy range represents a gentle enough load for the partnering amplifier with a mere 5.0ohm minimum occurring at a high 14kHz and swings in impedance phase of –59°/3.0kHz and +40°/1.47kHz contributing to an 'easy' EPDR of 2.3ohm/6.1kHz. However the big upswing in...

www.hifinews.com

After all, most young people don’t have the readies to splurge on these products.

Most reviewers do really like the Prodigy range:

PMC Prodigy 5 Review: Special one « 7Review

Nick Tate auditions this interesting compact British floorstanding speaker that has nothing to do with fire starters... Read our PMC Prodigy 5 review.

7review.com

 

[plastic penguin]

I bumped into it while searching for something. Absolutely, never buy on the basis of reviews.

Unless you know the presentation of the product.

PMC are like any other component, they are as good or as bad as your room and system.

 

[Noddy]

Unless you know the presentation of the product.

PMC are like any other component, they are as good or as bad as your room and system.

These days a decent system - amp, dac, streamer - should be transparent. Even my old Arcam Movie amp had only a faint warm colouration, which matched the measured slight roll off at higher frequencies. So the most significant factors are the speakers, and the room.

Doubtless room acoustics can be a. factor, but I don’t see why one would buy very expensive speakers with a Himalayan frequency response in the hope that they will magically correct very poor room acoustics. You forgot to mention ears. I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners.

And then some people just like voiced speakers. Reviews in WhatHiFi prove that.

 

[Pulpdiction]

Been demoing quite a few speakers recently and took time out to listen to the Spendor a7, so highly rated by what hifi, using a Naim Unity Nova and a Hagel H400 as the source - swapped the kit around a bit - and found the top end on the Spendor to be out of control on some tracks, for example She cries your name - Beth Orton was almost unlistenable, the screech of the violins was ear piercing and this just did not happen with either source on the Neat speakers, far more control from a ribbon tweater. Not sure where some of these reviews or awards come from on What Hifi.

 

[Al ears]

Been demoing quite a few speakers recently and took time out to listen to the Spendor a7, so highly rated by what hifi, using a Naim Unity Nova and a Hagel H400 as the source - swapped the kit around a bit - and found the top end on the Spendor to be out of control on some tracks, for example She cries your name - Beth Orton was almost unlistenable, the screech of the violins was ear piercing and this just did not happen with either source on the Neat speakers, far more control from a ribbon tweater. Not sure where some of these reviews or awards come from on What Hifi.

It's all personal opinion. The reviewers ears and listening room are completely different to yours that's why your opinion differs.
Oddly ribbon tweeters are normally the culprits.

 

[nopiano]

I do wonder if PMC Prodigy speakers are tuned to suit older listeners whose ears lack sensitivity as frequency increases:

I heard the Prodigy floorstanders at a show soon after they were released. I think it was at Cranage in June 2023. They just sounded ‘right’ in a way that is rare at any show. I also thought they looked really smart in the unflashy black. But definitely not plain or disappointing in the finish.

I was immediately taken with them, and unfortunately I fit your aging profile with depressed HF! That said, I don’t find treble lacking at live orchestral concerts, but I’m increasingly aware of voices sounding a bit muffled.

I have said for some time I think the TwentyFive series is overpriced, probably by about 50%, but for a long time the earlier Twenty range was a big seller, and indeed they usually sounded ok at shows, if a bit bright as is PMC’s way.

 

[plastic penguin]

These days a decent system - amp, dac, streamer - should be transparent. Even my old Arcam Movie amp had only a faint warm colouration, which matched the measured slight roll off at higher frequencies. So the most significant factors are the speakers, and the room.

Doubtless room acoustics can be a. factor, but I don’t see why one would buy very expensive speakers with a Himalayan frequency response in the hope that they will magically correct very poor room acoustics. You forgot to mention ears. I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners.

And then some people just like voiced speakers. Reviews in WhatHiFi prove that.

No, PMC are tuned to suit those who like that presentation. When I had the TB2i, they were cracking... and easy to drive.

I would say Q Acoustics are tuned for the older person. They are inoffensive and veer to the smooth side.

 

[Gray]

Regardless of age, some people just seem to prefer reduced HF.
The sort of sound you'd get with a quarter inch thick blanket between tweeter and ear.
'Forgiving' is the word often used to describe it - able to make all your worst recordings listenable.....and necessarily compromise all your best ones.

 

[Jasonovich]

No, PMC are tuned to suit those who like that presentation. When I had the TB2i, they were cracking... and easy to drive.

I would say Q Acoustics are tuned for the older person. They are inoffensive and veer to the smooth side.

It's a complicated subject, do you like it with sweetners or without?

 

[Noddy]

No, PMC are tuned to suit those who like that presentation. When I had the TB2i, they were cracking... and easy to drive.

I would say Q Acoustics are tuned for the older person. They are inoffensive and veer to the smooth side.

You have insight from the PMC designers then? I guess you must have as you are so certain. BTW they can be tuned for both, as I said. But I bet most fans are towards the older ages.

The Q A 3030i has a +/- level frequency response, not what would be expected for old ears:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 3030i

www.spinorama.org

The 3020i has a +/- level frequency response, not what would be expected for old ears:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 3020i

www.spinorama.org

The 5040 is level with reduced bass:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 5040

www.spinorama.org

 

[Al ears]

You have insight from the PMC designers then? I guess you must have as you are so certain. BTW they can be tuned for both, as I said. But I bet most fans are towards the older ages.

The Q A 3030i has a +/- level frequency response, not what would be expected for old ears:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 3030i

www.spinorama.org

The 3020i has a +/- level frequency response, not what would be expected for old ears:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 3020i

www.spinorama.org

The 5040 is level with reduced bass:

Measurements for speaker Q Acoustics 5040

www.spinorama.org

It's probably the older persons are the only ones that can afford them...

 

[Noddy]

It's probably the older persons are the only ones that can afford them...

Exactly my thoughts. And I’m not sure they’re styled to appeal to Oligarchs and Internet millionaires. Too tasteful and understated.

 

[plastic penguin]

It's a complicated subject, do you like it with sweetners or without?

I've tried munching on a speaker cabinet with sugar and honey, but found them a little cloying on the taste buds. 😂

 

[plastic penguin]

You have insight from the PMC designers then? I guess you must have as you are so certain. BTW they can be tuned for both, as I said. But I bet most fans are towards the older ages.

No idea what you are talking about. All I know is transmission line design has a distinct presentation, neither bright or dull. They sounded glorious with Leema, Arcam, Roksan Kandy & Naim. PMC are less fussy than many other brands when it comes to amplication. The only caveat is I don't know how they compare to the older TB & GB ranges from the likes of the new Prodigy range.

 

[Noddy]

No idea what you are talking about.

I am sure it was clear I was replying to this:

No, PMC are tuned to suit those who like that presentation. When I had the TB2i, they were cracking... and easy to drive.

I would say Q Acoustics are tuned for the older person. They are inoffensive and veer to the smooth side.

Older people lose hearing sensitivity more strongly in the higher frequencies, hence speakers such as PMC that appear bright to the young ear, might well be more appealing to the older ear, as they would sound more natural. Of course they may also appeal to younger people who like a brighter presentation, with a bit of lower bass extension thrown in thanks to the large soilpipe aka ATL.

 

[Jasonovich]

I've tried munching on a speaker cabinet with sugar and honey, but found them a little cloying on the taste buds. 😂

🤣

 

[plastic penguin]

I am sure it was clear I was replying to this:

Older people lose hearing sensitivity more strongly in the higher frequencies, hence speakers such as PMC that appear bright to the young ear, might well be more appealing to the older ear, as they would sound more natural. Of course they may also appeal to younger people who like a brighter presentation, with a bit of lower bass extension thrown in thanks to the large soilpipe aka ATL.

I would suggest the other way round. I prefer a well balanced presentation. And I'm 61. No, in my view older people tend to prefer a smoother sound. I certainly prefer a smoother (balanced) sound, that's why many older people prefer tube or Class A amplification.

My Dalis have a better balance with the Leema, despite there's nothing wrong with the PMCs I owned them for nearly 5 years. But that's just my taste in presentation.

 

[Noddy]

I've tried munching on a speaker cabinet with sugar and honey, but found them a little cloying on the taste buds. 😂

But you have to admit that it is a sound diet.

 

[Noddy]

I would suggest the other way round. I prefer a well balanced presentation. And I'm 61. No, in my view older people tend to prefer a smoother sound. I certainly prefer a smoother (balanced) sound, that's why many older people prefer tube or Class A amplification.

Clearly you completely missed the point. Oh never mind.

And obviously you’ve surveyed all older people so you know what they prefer. You’ve been busy. I have no idea what ‘smoother’ means in terms of sound. Without the crunchy bits cf peanut butter? Or without wrinkles? Or pureed, so easier to eat without teeth? That last one makes sense.

 

[plastic penguin]

Clearly you completely missed the point. Oh never mind.

And obviously you’ve surveyed all older people so you know what they prefer. You’ve been busy. I have no idea what ‘smoother’ means in terms of sound. Without the crunchy bits cf peanut butter? Or without wrinkles? Or pureed, so easier to eat without teeth? That last one makes sense.

No need to patronise anyone. Well, if you don't know the difference between warm, smooth or bright, how do you describe your kit? Pureed, crunchy, wrinkled or some other stupid description?

 

[Noddy]

No need to patronise anyone. Well, if you don't know the difference between warm, smooth or bright, how do you describe your kit? Pureed, crunchy, wrinkled or some other stupid description?

My tone was appropriate given your arrogant replies.

 

[plastic penguin]

My tone was appropriate given your arrogant replies.

There's only one arrogant person here and certainly ain't me.

If you're such a world expert on hearing, go and listen to a pair of PMC Prodigy. Then decide.

 

[Noddy]

There's only one arrogant person here and certainly ain't me.

If you're such a world expert on hearing, go and listen to a pair of PMC Prodigy. Then decide.

I wrote:

I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners.

To which you replied:

No, PMC are tuned to suit those who like that presentation.

To dismiss my post with no is arrogant. I tried to politely explain why older listeners might favour bright speakers, but you arrogantly dismissed my comments without thinking.

I’m not an expert, but unlike you I take into account research by experts. As one ages, ones hearing acuity degrades , and in particular one has lower sensitivity to higher frequencies.

Take a look at this graph:

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/j.lanwpc.2021.100131/asset/ae98e797-96ca-49ee-9d7b-4eb92e8ceb0e/main.assets/gr1_lrg.jpg

It comes from this research paper in a medical journal:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065%2821%2900040-7/fulltext

The graph shows the average hearing sensitivity as a function of frequency for a range of ages. Note how the hearing sensitivity decreases significantly with age, and that the effect is greatest at higher frequencies. The vertical axis is in dB, a logarithmic scale. 3 dB equates to a doubling of sound pressure, and 10 dB to a subjective doubling of the sound volume. As early as the early fifties, average hearing declines by 10 dB at higher frequencies. In your early sixties, it can be down 30 dB, a huge amount. These are averages, someone with some hearing loss would be worse off, and about one third of people in their sixties have some hearing loss beyond the natural decline.

Hence my statement that I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners. In other words, it isn’t that older listeners prefer bright speakers, rather their hearing is such that for them bright speakers sound neutral. And as noted earlier, PMC are usually very expensive which puts them more in the range of older people with more wealth to their name.

 

[Al ears]

I wrote:

To which you replied:

To dismiss my post with no is arrogant. I tried to politely explain why older listeners might favour bright speakers, but you arrogantly dismissed my comments without thinking.

I’m not an expert, but unlike you I take into account research by experts. As one ages, ones hearing acuity degrades , and in particular one has lower sensitivity to higher frequencies.

Take a look at this graph:

https://www.thelancet.com/cms/10.1016/j.lanwpc.2021.100131/asset/ae98e797-96ca-49ee-9d7b-4eb92e8ceb0e/main.assets/gr1_lrg.jpg

It comes from this research paper in a medical journal:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065%2821%2900040-7/fulltext

The graph shows the average hearing sensitivity as a function of frequency for a range of ages. Note how the hearing sensitivity decreases significantly with age, and that the effect is greatest at higher frequencies. The vertical axis is in dB, a logarithmic scale. 3 dB equates to a doubling of sound pressure, and 10 dB to a subjective doubling of the sound volume. As early as the early fifties, average hearing declines by 10 dB at higher frequencies. In your early sixties, it can be down 30 dB, a huge amount. These are averages, someone with some hearing loss would be worse off, and about one third of people in their sixties have some hearing loss beyond the natural decline.

Hence my statement that I have a suspicion PMC are tuned to suit older listeners. In other words, it isn’t that older listeners prefer bright speakers, rather their hearing is such that for them bright speakers sound neutral. And as noted earlier, PMC are usually very expensive which puts them more in the range of older people with more wealth to their name.

Precisely, however I very much doubt any manufacturer voices their speakers for a certain age group.
They either fit into your listening room or they don't, simple as...
if expensive speakers are designed for those that can afford them then I wonder when Magico speakers will become available to me....