PMC... are they that good?

[Noddy]

Perhaps God is deaf?

Maybe that was intended merely as a joke with no substance, however someone who spends huge amounts of time showing us what hifi components are actually doing is surely doing us a service. Obviously you have to listen to the things, in the end that’s what counts, but measurements allow us to see behind the often grandiose claims of some manufacturers. The hifi world is full of charlatans selling woo. A good example is Mcintosh, not my cup of tea, and very expensive, but measurements by Amir and others prove that their performance is top notch. In contrast he and others showed that the Wiim Mini has a high grade digital output, but a mediocre analogue output.

 

[Revolutions]

Using measurements can just as easily be another way of selling woo.

I find ASR useful & I doubt anyone will say the site doesn’t offer a helpful service. But it can just as quickly become a cult of remote decision making without doing the only thing that really matters: listening to it.

I don’t mean this as a dig, but all the McKintosh & WiiM measurements show is that the expensive product measures well & the budget product has limitations. A useful indicator, sure. Which means that anything more is just as objective as a reviewer’s opinion.

 

[Al ears]

I'd agree that, just because something measures well (whatever that means), doesn't mean it will sound good as you cannot simply test one item on its own. It needs to be part of a system.

 

[Juzzie Wuzzie]

I'd agree that, just because something measures well (whatever that means), doesn't mean it will sound good as you cannot simply test one item on its own. It needs to be part of a system.

And part of an (your) environment!

 

[Clarkey_71]

Been using PMC for 15+ years. My previous OB1s were one of the best hifi purchases I ever made. I believe Andrew Everard, once of this parish, still refers to his as his reference speaker.
I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to upgrade to my 25/26s. I'd listened to them several times at my local dealers and always promised myself I would buy a pair should I ever be able to.
Graphs aside, I love them.

 

[Noddy]

Using measurements can just as easily be another way of selling woo.

How? I thought woo meant making claims of magical qualities.

I find ASR useful & I doubt anyone will say the site doesn’t offer a helpful service. But it can just as quickly become a cult of remote decision making without doing the only thing that really matters: listening to it.

Measurements are just a way to know what is going on. They tell you if the speaker neutral, highly voiced, deficient in bass, lacks dispersion etc. And if you don’t care, you ignore them.

I don’t mean this as a dig, but all the McKintosh & WiiM measurements show is that the expensive product measures well & the budget product has limitations. A useful indicator, sure.

Exactly. But some expensive gear can perform poorly e.g. excessive distortion.

I'd agree that, just because something measures well (whatever that means), doesn't mean it will sound good as you cannot simply test one item on its own. It needs to be part of a system.

These days a decent DAC should sound like any other decent DAC, they’re almost all based round an off the shelf chip. Amps assuming of decent quality should all sound the same too, unless voiced, or valve based . Streamers are streamers, you pay for features e.g. a nice case, a pretty screen, fancy knobs, support for Tidal etc. If you’re someone who thinks DACs above a modest price point differ, you won’t want measurements.

Speakers on the other hand do differ, markedly so. Most are strongly voiced, and knowing how is useful. If your room handles bass badly, you might want a lighter bass. If your like brightness, you look for increased treble.

I need measurements as I can’t make head nor tail of most reviews. Big spacious presentation. Eh? Gliding along the tracks with a nimble footed assuredness. Sorry, come again? The [amp] is insightful and subtle. Okay dokey, if you say so. Full bodied and smooth. Are you sure that’s an amp, and not a pint of Guinness?

Honestly I learn zero from subjective reviews other than specs and the impressions of the appearance and build quality. I think the truth is that reviewers see themselves as creatives, and they have neither the time nor the expertise to take measurements. They have a living to make, taking measurements is not viable, it’s too costly. And I think they see themselves as especially talented listeners, people with discerning tastes.

 

[St@rg@zer]

This thread is scary - The thought of people comparing charts of speaker performance in a silent room. Overlaying transparencies looking for minute deviations and believing they found the holy grail of speaker X vs Y plotting. I listening to Stargazer again and becoming overcome with Dio's emotional storytelling - Marantz PM700N into B&W 607 S2 Anniversary is music to my ears!

 

[matthewpianist]

I have enjoyed every PMC speaker I’ve heard and it’s only price that has been a barrier. The DB1 is one of the best small standmounters I’ve ever heard.

Measurements are interesting but ultimately the most important thing by far is what your ears tell you. Speakers, and especially the interaction with your room, have the biggest overall impact on how a system sounds, and can become an endless rabbit hole. Audition, preferably in your own listening space, before parting with your cash, unless you have sufficient experience of a wide range of speakers and are potentially returning to something you’ve had before.

 

[Noddy]

This thread is scary - The thought of people comparing charts of speaker performance in a silent room. Overlaying transparencies looking for minute deviations and believing they found the holy grail of speaker X vs Y plotting.

That would indeed be madness.

And yet hifi forums are full of people looking for the holy grail of speakers, spending huge amounts on supposed upgrades.

I listening to Stargazer again and becoming overcome with Dio's emotional storytelling - Marantz PM700N into B&W 607 S2 Anniversary is music to my ears!

With a DAC or an amp I just want to know that it performs as it should. But with speakers the differences aren’t small, we’re sometimes talking about huge differences. Here is a review of a studio monitor:

Neumann KH120 II Monitor Review

This is a review, detailed measurements and listening tests/EQ of Neumann KH120 MKII DSP active monitor (speaker). It is on kind loan from the company and costs US $999 each. I love the form factor for desktop use. It is not too deep or unwieldly as some larger configurations can be: Back...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is designed for near field listening and a neutral sound and shows a near flat frequency response. Studio monitors don’t necessarily make good home speakers, and they are not pretty, but can be really good on a work desk.

And here is a B&W speaker:

B&W 603 loudspeaker Lab Report

It's a notable feature of modern B&Ws that they don't have particularly flat frequency responses – even the 800 D3 series. So it is no surprise to find that the 603's forward frequency response [Graph 1, measured at 1m on the tweeter axis] is on the uneven side, although it is unexpected to see...

www.hifinews.com

The frequency response show huge peaks and dips. Personally I prefer a neutral response, I find that such speakers work better in my room, and with a wider range of music genres. Other people may prefer an elevated bass or treble or whatever.

 

[nopiano]

This thread is scary - The thought of people comparing charts of speaker performance in a silent room. Overlaying transparencies looking for minute deviations and believing they found the holy grail of speaker X vs Y plotting. I listening to Stargazer again and becoming overcome with Dio's emotional storytelling - Marantz PM700N into B&W 607 S2 Anniversary is music to my ears!

Is that the 1976 rock track? I’m sure it’s very enjoyable, and doubtless moving if you love it. The trouble is it isn’t exactly like a voice from a BBC studio or a known instrument in a hall you’re familiar with. Hence, it gives you no chance to determine how good a representation of the original recording you’re hearing.

Enjoyable - yes. Accurate - who knows?

A brand like PMC has clearly satisfied thousands of listeners. Whether that’s through appearance, enjoyable sound, great selling techniques, British heritage or all of the above. So has B&W, which I’ve heard in Abbey Road Studio no 1 as well as in several homes.

For more uniform frequency response, and potentially better sound at home, brands like ATC, KEF, Quad and Harbeth would be more to my taste, but I too can be seduced by the type of rich, saturated sound my Sonus fabers offer.

 

[nopiano]

PMC's new Prophecy range of stereo speakers looks to the future

A new premium speaker range from the transmission-line specialists

www.whathifi.com

Worth tacking this new announcement onto this long and recent thread. (No giggling if you think the midrange driver surround looks like a cat’s bottom!)

 

[davidf]

All following the designs of their pro stuff.

 

[Gray]

I'd like to compare the Prodigy and Prophecy 1 models.
Would be good to read a genuinely blind test in WHF or Hi-Fi Choice between the two.
Does the latest model sound £1625 better? (Probably will if they see it )
Unsighted listening would be interesting.....unless you're Noddy, when just a frequency response plot may be all you need to dismiss one or both PMCs

 

[Noddy]

I'd like to compare the Prodigy and Prophecy 1 models.
Would be good to read a genuinely blind test in WHF or Hi-Fi Choice between the two.
Does the latest model sound £1625 better? (Probably will if they see it )
Unsighted listening would be interesting.....unless you're Noddy, when just a frequency response plot may be all you need to dismiss one or both PMCs

Not so. The name PMC is enough for me to dismiss them. 🤣 Seriously though, PMC are known for highly coloured speakers, which some love, but not me. And yes I know they have a very special piece of plastic on the ATL opening, designed using F1 technology: “Rarely does anything enter the audio realm with auch a profound effect on sound quality and the sheer enjoyment of music: LaminairX unlocks the full potential of PMC’s ATL technology.”

You’re right about the blind testing, but they wouldn’t do that, in part because it’s expensive to do - it requires many people, and plenty of time - and in part because they believe that they have golden ears, so why bother when you have top drawer experts on hand. FWIW I dismissed Jern speakers after listening to them, no measurements were needed.

 

[davidf]

I'd like to compare the Prodigy and Prophecy 1 models.
Would be good to read a genuinely blind test in WHF or Hi-Fi Choice between the two.
Does the latest model sound £1625 better? (Probably will if they see it )
Unsighted listening would be interesting.....unless you're Noddy, when just a frequency response plot may be all you need to dismiss one or both PMCs

There'll be quite a difference between the two. I've heard the Prodigys, and although I've not heard the new stuff, I'm familiar with PMCs offerings. The Prodigys are built to a budget (as is everything at their price point), so they're quite lightweight (build wise), and this will show in their sound. Good sounding speakers for the money though.

 

[Gray]

Seriously though, PMC are known for highly coloured speakers

Seriously, not by me Noddy.
I honestly can't imagine people describing the sound I've got as highly coloured.
(Unless they preferred a rolled off high end - as many seem to).

 

[Gray]

There'll be quite a difference between the two.

There certainly ought to be (in favour of the new model)👍

 

[Noddy]

Seriously, not by me Noddy.
I honestly can't imagine people describing the sound I've got as highly coloured.
(Unless they preferred a rolled off high end - as many seem to).

The person who bought my Twenty.21 said they were very bright. I agree.

Measured frequency response curves for several consumer PMC speakers clearly show high colouration.

 

[Gray]

The person who bought my Twenty.21 said they were very bright. I agree.

Again, call me old fashioned but I presume he bought them because he liked the sound 🤔

I clearly get that you're not keen on PMC Noddy.
How you ever bought a pair is the world's biggest mystery 😉

 

[Al ears]

Again, call me old fashioned but I presume he bought them because he liked the sound 🤔

I clearly get that you're not keen on PMC Noddy.
How you ever bought a pair is the world's biggest mystery 😉

I was thinking the same thing.
I find it amazing the number of forum members that buy new kit then promptly come on here to slag them off.
Very odd.

 

[Noddy]

Again, call me old fashioned but I presume he bought them because he liked the sound 🤔

I clearly get that you're not keen on PMC Noddy.
How you ever bought a pair is the world's biggest mystery 😉

I don’t understand your defensiveness, or your aversion to measurements which show that they are coloured. Whether one likes them is a subjective experience, some like neutral, some like more bass and so on. I’m not going to tell someone that they should share my tastes. But to claim that they are neutral when they are demonstrably not is odd.

I bought them for various reasons. Firstly they got rave reviews, and back then I thought reviewers knew what they were talking about. In truth they just give subjective opinions, and present them as fact. Secondly I liked the sound when demoed. They played the classical music I like very nicely. However, with time I found that they were IMO poor with some genres especially female singers. Joni Mitchell just sounded weird, to my ears. Thirdly, in my room they were fussy about placement and listening position. Fourthly I got them new for a bargain price, £1,000.

To be honest the hifi industry makes me angry. There are many honest people, but there are also many charlatans, and the marketing is unhelpful. I have had good experiences at Seven Oaks and Richer Sounds, but I’ve also been to one hifi chain where the staff were, to put it bluntly, dishonest.

 

[Noddy]

I was thinking the same thing.
I find it amazing the number of forum members that buy new kit then promptly come on here to slag them off.
Very odd.

That is a very unfair and completely unjustified remark. Why make rude personal remarks when I refer to objective measurements? If someone likes that style, that’s fine, they will buy them.

Or are we not allowed to say certain things?

And yes it does matter. I was ignorant about hifi, I took reviews at face value, and I was misled.

 

[Al ears]

That is a very unfair and completely unjustified remark. Why make rude personal remarks when I refer to objective measurements? If someone likes that style, that’s fine, they will buy them.

Or are we not allowed to say certain things?

And yes it does matter. I was ignorant about hifi, I took reviews at face value, and I was misled.

Unfair, I hardly think so .
You'll learn.....

 

[Noddy]

Unfair, I hardly think so .

Yes it was, given the number of posts I have made in the forum. Why do you see a need to resort to personal abuse? Can you not cope with disagreement?

You'll learn.....

That is very condescending. Learn what?

 

[Al ears]

Yes it was, given the number of posts I have made in the forum. Why do you see a need to resort to personal abuse? Can you not cope with disagreement?

That is very condescending. Learn what?