PMC... are they that good?

[insider9]

The serial number is 1185 and my serial numbers on my previous twenty 23s were 2603 (sept 2013 bought), so since the speakers came out in 2011 I think from memory I'm guessing these are early production run ones. So I'd say £700 is very fair used,  not  least since fanthorpes were selling ones new at £1600 very recently in wood finishes. I'd have a guess that pmc are not shifting the graphite ones at the list price of £2170 so are making limited run wood versions to sell to shops, so they can sell them still as a cheaper pmc is no doubt appealing. Another shop was doing the same thing - lintone audio, and were selling wood finish 23s for £1500 last year. You should tell the seller this and see if the seller would let go for £700. I'm nearby if you want me to check them out and pay my fuel to get there. Hope this info helps. Cheers Simon 

It is thanks. Twenty 21 can be had for £699 second hand. Like I said, would be difficult to get such bargain.

I'm not averse to paying £700 for a pair of speakers but in fairness they are supposed to be my second system. Would rather have something cheaper or simply better value for money. Many less known older speakers sound superb and can be had for less.

Although knowing I could probably sell them on for £800+ I wouldn't mind having a go.

By the way the chap selling GB1s isn't really budging on the price so might have to give them a miss.

Saw some Epos M22 which I've heard are good match for Naim.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

What are your main / second systems out of interest ? Another one that punches well above its weight that I've really liked and it wasn't that far from my old pmc's is kudos x3's . Sat listening for an hour to these when I picked up a Cyrus upgrade once. There was one on eBay but a single speaker unfortunately.

Also triangle speakers (from France). In a bake off at mine someone brought over a 3 way triangle speaker. Can't remember what they were but He told me he paid very little money for them. They were, on first listen pretty decent. Didn't have the bass response ability of my pmc's though, one thing that pmc does so so well.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Neat are meant to pair well with naim kit....a pair of neat iota...starting bid @£350 on the bay just now.with the option of the dedicated stands free if you can collect from Sheffield.desreve a wee listen I think.

 

[insider9]

Neat are meant to pair well with naim kit....a pair of neat iota...starting bid @£350 on the bay just now.with the option of the dedicated stands free if you can collect from Sheffield.desreve a wee listen I think.

Yes watching them at the minute. As I'm also in Sheffield. I've only heard of them but somehow prefer floorstanders.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

If you are looking at neat , how about neat iota alpha for a second system. They are fantastic speaker for the price, and a huge sound from the small box. I recommended those to my dad who doesn't like hi fi 'boxes' everywhere.

I'd also recommend Swedish Larsen speakers for that kind of design / thing too.

 

[insider9]

What are your main / second systems out of interest ? Another one that punches well above its weight that I've really liked and it wasn't that far from my old pmc's is kudos x3's . Sat listening for an hour to these when I picked up a Cyrus upgrade once.  There was one on eBay but a single speaker unfortunately.

Also triangle speakers (from France). In a bake off at mine someone brought over a 3 way triangle speaker. Can't remember what they were but He told me he paid very little money for them. They were, on first listen pretty decent. Didn't have the bass response ability of my pmc's though, one thing that pmc does so so well. 

It's a DIY active project. Digital crossovers with room correction. Currently on hold as Minidsp is coming back from Hong Kong after I connected it to wrong power supply (24V instead of 5V whoops). Chaps from Minidsp were fine to have it fixed under warranty. Very professional service! Glad they didn't ask many questions

That's why really I started playing with amps and now thinking about passive speakers again.

The newest active conversion will be the Jamos. But it's meant as an ongoing project so would have a go at different ones after a while. Do require at least a 3 way design. Ideally 4 way that is a full range or nearly full range speaker.

Last conversion were Dali 104 with a REL Quake sub. Achieving in room +/- 1dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. Whether flat or in line with a house curve.

 

[Electro]

PMC... are they that good?

No they are much better than that ! *biggrin*

 

[insider9]

Would anyone fancy comparing their PMC speakers against some old Jamo speakers (1989) and EV speakers (circa 1968)?

Date to be confirmed but in the next 3 weeks and venue near Sheffield with easy access to motorway.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Anyone in Sussex who wants to hear a really good system at mine, lol, and bringing stuff along to try out, with me then reciprocating I'd be interested. But sorry Luke I'm some way from you.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I'm a long way from all of you.sw Scotland to be precise.

 

[insider9]

Anyone in Sussex who wants to hear a really good system at mine, lol, and bringing stuff along to try out, with me then reciprocating I'd be interested. But sorry Luke I'm some way from you. 

No worries, Simon. Thanks

 

[insider9]

I'm a long way from all of you.sw Scotland to be precise.

Thanks, Mark. I knew it would be a long a long shot. Don't think there's many of us in Yorkshire. Everyone is quite spread out.

 

[plastic penguin]

If I had the time, you could come round and listen to my TB2s, but the amp and acoustics would have no bearing on your set-up and room.

 

[insider9]

If I had the time, you could come round and listen to my TB2s, but the amp and acoustics would have no bearing on your set-up and room.

Very kind offer. Thank you. Unfortunately too far

 

[Noddy]

I had PMC Twenty 21s. Female singers such as Joni Mitchell never sounded right. I realised why when I saw the frequency response, it’s all over the place, exaggerated treble, plus bumps and troughs aplenty elsewhere. IMO they are overpriced boutique speakers, marketed to rich people on the basis of spurious claims about transmission lines being superior. I was lucky as I bought new ones for a bargain, and got a lot of my money back via eBay.

 

[Gray]

I had PMC Twenty 21s. Female singers such as Joni Mitchell never sounded right. I realised why when I saw the frequency response, it’s all over the place, exaggerated treble, plus bumps and troughs aplenty elsewhere. IMO they are overpriced boutique speakers, marketed to rich people on the basis of spurious claims about transmission lines being superior. I was lucky as I bought new ones for a bargain, and got a lot of my money back via eBay.

I've got the same speakers and you've made me glad I've never played Joni Mitchell on them 👍
I've never had a good look at the frequency response plot - but I suspect most rooms might have at least as many peaks and troughs influencing their sound - and I'm more than happy with listening.

It's funny that you describe them as 'boutique' speakers (whatever that means), because
it brought to mind the final sentence of Jason Kennedy's review conclusion on the twenty21, it was the opposite of your opinion. He said:

'There are boutique brands with more caché but you should buy them for snob value alone, if you want to really get involved in your favourite music then I’d challenge anyone to find a better compact standmount'.

 

[Noddy]

I've got the same speakers and you've made me glad I've never played Joni Mitchell on them 👍
I've never had a good look at the frequency response plot - but I suspect most rooms might have at least as many peaks and troughs influencing their sound - and I'm more than happy with listening.

It's funny that you describe them as 'boutique' speakers (whatever that means), because
it bought to mind the final sentence of Jason Kennedy's review conclusion on the twenty21, it was the opposite of your opinion. He said:

'There are boutique brands with more caché but you should buy them for snob value alone, if you want to really get involved in your favourite music then I’d challenge anyone to find a better compact standmount'.

I don’t want to sound rude towards you, but the subjective opinion of a journalist means nothing to me. I have learnt to ignore reviews unless backed up by measurements. Opinions are no more than a mixture of the reviewers personal tastes, the influence of the manufacturers representatives - i.e. clever advertising - and the acuity of their ears. All too often systems I hate are well reviewed and vice versa. That is especially true for headphones, I can’t abide B&W and the consumer tuned Sennheisers, which are very well reviewed.

Regarding hearing acuity, I had a look at some research papers that measured the hearing sensitivity as a function of frequency of a large group of people. Once you pass middle age, your hearing changes significantly, with the most dramatic changes being in the higher frequency range. I’m 61, and on average that makes a huge impact to perception of sounds.

By boutique I mean that they sell in relatively small numbers, at high prices. I guess I would also put Jern in that camp, even though I think the cast iron housings are gorgeous. I think PMC are trying to become a bit more mainstream and less boutique.

I prefer a speaker that has a neutral presentation, with no obvious peaks and troughs. Obviously each to their own, and I certainly won’t tell others what to buy, but measurements allow us to know what we are getting. If someone likes a system, that’s more than enough reason to buy it, and ignore what anyone else says.

 

[Gray]

I don’t want to sound rude towards you, but the subjective opinion of a journalist means nothing to me. I have learnt to ignore reviews unless backed up by measurements. Opinions are no more than a mixture of the reviewers personal tastes, the influence of the manufacturers representatives - i.e. clever advertising - and the acuity of their ears. All too often systems I hate are well reviewed and vice versa. That is especially true for headphones, I can’t abide B&W and the consumer tuned Sennheisers, which are very well reviewed.

Regarding hearing acuity, I had a look at some research papers that measured the hearing sensitivity as a function of frequency of a large group of people. Once you pass middle age, your hearing changes significantly, with the most dramatic changes being in the higher frequency range. I’m 61, and on average that makes a huge impact to perception of sounds.

By boutique I mean that they sell in relatively small numbers, at high prices. I guess I would also put Jern in that camp, even though I think the cast iron housings are gorgeous. I think PMC are trying to become a bit more mainstream and less boutique.

I prefer a speaker that has a neutral presentation, with no obvious peaks and troughs. Obviously each to their own, and I certainly won’t tell others what to buy, but measurements allow us to know what we are getting. If someone likes a system, that’s more than enough reason to buy it, and ignore what anyone else says.

We'll agree to disagree on the sound of the 21 then
For the record, I don't take too much notice of what reviewers say - unless they're all picking up on the same things, which they certainly did with the 21 - but I bought mine after hearing them and before I read most of the reviews.
To me they're well balanced tonally.
I agree that PMC are overpriced (although not being rich helps me with that opinion),
but what English-made speakers aren't overpriced?

And yes, personal opinion....there's a current thread where one poster says that an Epos speaker is the best he's ever had, another says he found the same model terrible and couldn't get rid of it fast enough
Each to their own.

 

[Al ears]

I had PMC Twenty 21s. Female singers such as Joni Mitchell never sounded right. I realised why when I saw the frequency response, it’s all over the place, exaggerated treble, plus bumps and troughs aplenty elsewhere. IMO they are overpriced boutique speakers, marketed to rich people on the basis of spurious claims about transmission lines being superior. I was lucky as I bought new ones for a bargain, and got a lot of my money back via eBay.

Nice of to dig up a seven year old thread to let us know. Interesting though.
Shows the need to home audition any speakers before purchase as they are the most vital piece of a system.

 

[Noddy]

Nice of to dig up a seven year old thread to let us know. Interesting though.
Shows the need to audition any speakers before purchase.

I bumped into it while searching for something. Absolutely, never buy on the basis of reviews.

 

[Noddy]

We'll agree to disagree on the sound of the 21 then
For the record, I don't take too much notice of what reviewers say - unless they're all picking up on the same things, which they certainly did with the 21 - but I bought mine after hearing them and before I read most of the reviews.
To me they're well balanced tonally.
I agree that PMC are overpriced (although not being rich helps me with that opinion),
but what English-made speakers aren't overpriced?

And yes, personal opinion....there's a current thread where one poster says that an Epos speaker is the best he's ever had, another says he found the same model terrible and couldn't get rid of it fast enough
Each to their own.

Sadly products made in Britain tend to be very expensive, and if they’re not, then they’re probably assembled in Britain from imported components. From what I can discover, PMC assemble components made elsewhere, thus cabinets and speaker drivers are bought in, but made to PMC designs. One source indicates that Bryston, a Canadian company, make the speaker drivers. It’s probably much cheaper to have a specialist make components designed by PMC, and the quality might even be better as a specialist will have huge in house knowledge and experience. My Dualit toaster is made in England, expensive and superb. I have no frequency response measurements for it, and maybe it’s not comparable …

This was the review that prompted me to compare my PMC speakers against others:

PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PMC Twenty.21 Stand-mount Speaker. It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $2,000 but member purchased it used for much less. Professional Monitor Company (PMC) is a UK company so keep that in mind when looking at pricing. Their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Gray]

This was the review that prompted me to compare my PMC speakers against others:

PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PMC Twenty.21 Stand-mount Speaker. It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $2,000 but member purchased it used for much less. Professional Monitor Company (PMC) is a UK company so keep that in mind when looking at pricing. Their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ah yes, good old ASR, I remember his 'failed design' conclusion 😆

Question for you though Noddy:
Did you listen to the PMCs before you bought them?
If you did.....then you must have liked them🤔

....then it took an ASR review to prompt you to decide they weren't right for you...yet you say you don't care about reviews.
(Throw in a few measurements and a review becomes more than just an opinion - I know 🙄).

 

[Jasonovich]

Sadly products made in Britain tend to be very expensive, and if they’re not, then they’re probably assembled in Britain from imported components. From what I can discover, PMC assemble components made elsewhere, thus cabinets and speaker drivers are bought in, but made to PMC designs. One source indicates that Bryston, a Canadian company, make the speaker drivers. It’s probably much cheaper to have a specialist make components designed by PMC, and the quality might even be better as a specialist will have huge in house knowledge and experience. My Dualit toaster is made in England, expensive and superb. I have no frequency response measurements for it, and maybe it’s not comparable …

This was the review that prompted me to compare my PMC speakers against others:

PMC Twenty.21 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the PMC Twenty.21 Stand-mount Speaker. It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $2,000 but member purchased it used for much less. Professional Monitor Company (PMC) is a UK company so keep that in mind when looking at pricing. Their...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Love my Dualit toaster and my little bubble burst thinking these were manufactured in Italy!

Love also, listening to yours and Gray's comments, not something that is widely discussed on these forums.

 

[Noddy]

Ah yes, good old ASR, I remember his 'failed design' conclusion 😆

Question for you though Noddy:
Did you listen to the PMCs before you bought them?
If you did.....then you must have liked them🤔

....then it took an ASR review to prompt you to decide they weren't right for you...yet you say you don't care about reviews.
(Throw in a few measurements and a review becomes more than just an opinion - I know 🙄).

All good points. Yes I listened to the PMC speakers in a demo room, but did not try others as they were a bargain, and to be fair they are a decent speaker, albeit voiced, but I gradually noticed some issues at home with bass boom and an off sound with for example female singers. And we can all become a bit neurotic over our prized possessions. The ASR review helped explain the issues I was having. The bass issue was mostly the speakers, a more neutral bass is best in my modest room, and in addition I didn’t realise that at my age, 61, I am less sensitive to higher frequencies, and that was soon sorted using the equaliser on the Wiim Mini streamer.

Measurements are just a way to find out what is going on, they don’t tell you if you actually like the sound, or if the system works in your room, or if you like the look. As the French say, On mange d’abord avec les yeux.

However, we all know the solution is to choose appropriate cables, and don’t forget risers so that the cables don’t pick up the nibbling sounds made by worms beneath the floor. Plus, and here is my top tip, align the speakers with local ley lines.

 

[Noddy]

Love my Dualit toaster and my little bubble burst thinking these were manufactured in Italy!

It’s good they’re not made in Italy. I have owned at least eight stainless steel Moka pots. The spout fell of one Italian unit when a weld failed, and the top fell off of another Italian one when a weld failed. The German and Chinese ones are far superior, the latter are beautifully made.

There’s a saying, buy cheap many times, buy expensive once.