A simple blind ABX test of this chaps cables is all that's needed to determine whether they make any difference. I doubt suggesting as much at that meeting would've went down too well though. I'd have eat the free grub first 
steve_1979
Well-known member
bigboss said:I was going to say something similar, but in a milder manner.
I feel a bit guilty saying anything bad when Cno is such a nice and friendly guy.
Unfortunately subtlety has never been one of my strong points. I just can't resist calling a spade a spade in a direct and blunt manner.steve_1979 said:
This was a genuine question btw Cno.
p.s. I'm looking forward to the photos and write up.
bigboss
Moderator
I agree. It's difficult to confront Cno as he's a nice person. It is useful to have his posts, as it makes me sit back & think for a moment (although I'm yet to agree with his views regarding accessories).
BenLaw
Well-known member
bigboss said:
Good idea - the only problem is you are regulated by professional standards and if you endorsed something - as a doctor - that was bollo--- then you would face some sort of sanction. And I imagine the burden of proof would be on you. Whereas an acoustic engineer can say / do what they like...
bigboss
Moderator
BenLaw
Well-known member
bigboss
Moderator
CnoEvil said:
I'd say it's less about being gullible and everything to do with being a biased human. Typing "Can we avoid bias?" into Google brings up the following from the BMJ: The cognitive processes we use in making diagnoses are characterised by heuristics and biases that are similar to those that underpin much human decision making. Although these processes are error prone, they have evolved as rapid and effective ways of making decisions in conditions of uncertainty and they are deeply ingrained in our psyche. Reducing such errors may be difficult and, indeed, some commentators are sceptical about whether such cognitive errors can be reduced at all.
Wiki has some information about confirmation bias.
Some more info here
Being aware that such biases exist is absolutely no guard against being affected by them. The only way to be sure something is making a genuine difference, unfortunately, is to perform a double blind ab/x. When any cable can be reliably picked out using this method, only then do I think it is safe to say it actually does sound different.
bigboss said:BenLaw said:You could probably release some audio cables and endorse those as a doctor
get one of your colleagues, dr dre, to endorse the cables. Will definately work.
Craig M. said:
yep, that would do me. Or establish what measurable differences are audible and see if you can find difference in these measurements. Would do me, too. Will even get me interested in such cables.
steve_1979 said:bigboss said:I was going to say something similar, but in a milder manner.
I feel a bit guilty saying anything bad when Cno is such a nice and friendly guy.
steve_1979 said:
This was a genuine question btw Cno.
p.s. I'm looking forward to the photos and write up.
Thank you Steve, I appreciate the comment.
I don't mind reasonable questions, and in this case I can't give you an answer.
IMO The important thing in all this is to respect the opinion of both sides of the debate.......I make a point of going to this kind of thing and reporting back on what I hear. My intention is not to force my opinion down anyone's throat, but provoke reasonable debate and hopefully get people to listen to interesting products.
What they then hear is personal to them, and so can give a meaningful opinion born out of experience. I feel strongly that there is room for both points of view and no one side should have a monopoly just because they are more dogmatic.
You may have noticed that despite strongly disagreeing with many of the posts on this thread (and others), I never resort to insults, as that leads nowhere. IMO It is crucial that people feel free to express their opinions without fear of being ambushed by the lynch mob...not everyone is as foolhardy as my good self.
The entire system - as you see, the acoustics are far from ideal but the acoustic panels help.
The Sansui CDP and amp are on the floor.
Electro CDP
Electro 180 mono amp
Spendor ST and Tannoy Mercury V1
Close up of construction of Pulse X
Pulse C speaker cable
Pulse D-Fi 3.5mm -> RCA
Pulse (Hand made)
The man himself in full flow.
gregvet
Well-known member
Right, if you all would "haud yer wheesht" for a moment, I'll do my best to describe what I heard.
THE CABLING (Budget System)
The evening started with the budget system, which was mostly wired with PULSE D-Fi (except a PULSE B from Bel Canto -> amp):
- 3.5mm jack -> RCA (1m)....£105
- I/C (1m)..................£145
- S/C (2m)..................£250
- USB (1m)..................£70
- USB (DD)..................£140
THE MUSIC
Patricia Barber.....Let it rain (WAV)
Dido...............? (Apple Lossless)
M. Buble............Feaver (MP3)
Keb Mo.............? (WAV)
P. Floyd....Comfortably Numb (WAV)
Nils Lofgren...Keith don't go - Acoustic Live (CD)
Terry Evans.....Get your lies straight (CD)
?..............Misty - 3 Blind Mice label (CD)
Diana Krall....Girl in the other room (CD)
THE FORMAT
1. iPod (H/phone jack) -> Amp
2. PC (H/phone jack) -> Amp
3. PC (USB) -> Bel Canto Dac (Pulse B) -> Amp
4. As above but with DD USB
5. PC (wireless) -> Airport Express (jack/RCA) -> amp
THE SOUND
Given it started off with a very budget system, fed by an iPod through its h/phone socket, I wasn't expecting much. In fact I was really expecting to tread water until the big system was put on.
Well, boy was I wrong. As the system sprang into life, it immediately grabbed my attention. It was clean, clear, detailed and musical. I have heard more than my fair share of basic systems, but none of them sounded like that.
If you had told me I was listening to a £2k system, I wouldn't have questioned it...and all from an iPod. Now of course the little Tannoys didn't have a lot of bass, but the sound was always enjoyable, which is more than can be said of a lot of other more expensive systems I've come across.
As we went through each progression (listed above), the sound improved...with the BC Dac bringing the biggest single jump. It was like starting at the back of a concert hall and gradually moving up to the front row, for a more intimate experience. The music became more natural and effortless, with a flow and timing that was above the pay grade of this bargain level system.
What proved the most puzzling was with the insertion of the DD USB (twice as thick), which brought an improvement that I believe we all heard.
Now its possible that Sansui have brought out a wonderful amp, and its match with the Tannoys is great...but I believe Touraj is on to something and has found a way of truly freeing up the potential in the kit you have.
Part two to follow shortly.
THE CABLING (Budget System)
The evening started with the budget system, which was mostly wired with PULSE D-Fi (except a PULSE B from Bel Canto -> amp):
- 3.5mm jack -> RCA (1m)....£105
- I/C (1m)..................£145
- S/C (2m)..................£250
- USB (1m)..................£70
- USB (DD)..................£140
THE MUSIC
Patricia Barber.....Let it rain (WAV)
Dido...............? (Apple Lossless)
M. Buble............Feaver (MP3)
Keb Mo.............? (WAV)
P. Floyd....Comfortably Numb (WAV)
Nils Lofgren...Keith don't go - Acoustic Live (CD)
Terry Evans.....Get your lies straight (CD)
?..............Misty - 3 Blind Mice label (CD)
Diana Krall....Girl in the other room (CD)
THE FORMAT
1. iPod (H/phone jack) -> Amp
2. PC (H/phone jack) -> Amp
3. PC (USB) -> Bel Canto Dac (Pulse B) -> Amp
4. As above but with DD USB
5. PC (wireless) -> Airport Express (jack/RCA) -> amp
THE SOUND
Given it started off with a very budget system, fed by an iPod through its h/phone socket, I wasn't expecting much. In fact I was really expecting to tread water until the big system was put on.
Well, boy was I wrong. As the system sprang into life, it immediately grabbed my attention. It was clean, clear, detailed and musical. I have heard more than my fair share of basic systems, but none of them sounded like that.
If you had told me I was listening to a £2k system, I wouldn't have questioned it...and all from an iPod. Now of course the little Tannoys didn't have a lot of bass, but the sound was always enjoyable, which is more than can be said of a lot of other more expensive systems I've come across.
As we went through each progression (listed above), the sound improved...with the BC Dac bringing the biggest single jump. It was like starting at the back of a concert hall and gradually moving up to the front row, for a more intimate experience. The music became more natural and effortless, with a flow and timing that was above the pay grade of this bargain level system.
What proved the most puzzling was with the insertion of the DD USB (twice as thick), which brought an improvement that I believe we all heard.
Now its possible that Sansui have brought out a wonderful amp, and its match with the Tannoys is great...but I believe Touraj is on to something and has found a way of truly freeing up the potential in the kit you have.
Part two to follow shortly.
THE EXPENSIVE SYSTEM
THE CABLING
- As above for iPod, PC and Bel Canto Dac
- I/C PULSE B (£731 - 0.65m) and PULSE R (£2046 - 0.65m)
- S/C PULSE X (£1350 - 2M) and PULSE X Ref+* (£2500 - 2M)
*The only difference is the plugs.
Though not used, there is a PULSE C range:
I/C...£286 for 1.1m
S/C...£395 for 2m
So the I/C range goes (I think): PULSE D-Fi -> C -> B -> B Ref -> R -> PULSE (Handmade)
and S/C: D-Fi -> X -> X Ref -> PULSE Handmade (I think).
THE FORMAT
1. As with the budget system ie. iPod/PC/BC Dac
2. Electro CDP was inserted and the system used all PULSE B I/Cs and PULSE X S/C
3. PULSE R inserted between CDP and Pre
4. PULSE R also inserted between pre and power
5. PULSE X Ref+ S/C replaced the standard X.
Apologies if all this Pulsing is confusing....but that's because it is....I've tried to lay it out as simply as possible, and may well have got it wrong.
THE SOUND
Now the moment of truth. As this system got into its stride, there was more of everything....and now there was bass.
To me, starting with the iPod, the sound was good, but I certainly felt the system was being held back....like a Farrari with a timid pensioner behind the wheel.
As we progressed through the same steps as before, there was an incremental improvement...but I was still not blown away. It was interesting to note that I felt the same improvement was there when the DD USB was inserted (I know, I know, I'm deluded!)
At last the Electro CDP came on line with the cheaper PULSE B (compared to the Pulse R, but certainly not cheap). Now that's better - the class of this system started to shine through....and was a fine example of the importance of the source. The naturalness and openness moved up several notches.
The mid range and treble was clear, detailed and sweet, but the bass, to my mind wasn't quite right. I suspect it was mostly the room, and there is also the fact that the STs aren't big enough to do barn storming bass (and certainly not in a room like that).
Next came the insertion of the PULSE R between CDP and Pre. The effect was subtle yet profound. I hadn't realized there was a very slight boxiness to the sound until then. As I have often said, good is good, until you hear better.
With the insertion of the second PULSE R (Pre -> Power), again an improvement, but interestingly to my ears, not as much as the insertion of the first one from the CDP....imo showing that preserving the signal from the source has the biggest effect.
The final stage was the addition of the PULSE X Ref+ S/C. Now we were really hearing what this beautiful system was capable of. The sound was like having "no cable". We were now in the front row of an intimate concert, with the level of detail being very impressive...all those little details and ambient noises, which are usually missing on less expensive systems, were there.
The Electro kit is truly impressive, but if I was being a little picky, the STs bass was not quite right....but improved noticeably with the better cables.
It was the same pieces of music that were used to give some consistency between each change. After this was finished, anyone who had brought a CD, had it played.
CONCLUSION
I can't do anything about those who think I was bamboozled into hearing things that weren't there, and fell prey to every self deluded-brain trickery going. All I can tell you, is that nearly 40 years of hearing all sorts of systems, at all sorts of prices, allows me to bring a little insight and experience to the proceedings..even allowing for the subjective nature of it.
Surprisingly, the lasting impression I had from the evening, was not how good the expensive system was, but just how good the cheap system was made sound. I can't stress this enough, and don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Go listen for yourself and please report back on what you find...even if it's in complete contrast to my opinion.
The expensive cables were really impressive, but so were ones from Atlas (Mavros/Asimi); Telurium Q (Ultra Black); Cardas (Golden Cross / Ref)...and without a direct comparison, it's impossible to tell.
Actually, I think it's with the cheap cables that he may have something that is frighteningly hard to beat at the money.
If you take noting else out of what I've said, take out this:
- If you have an iPod or PC, try the D-Fi 3.5 jack to RCA..or one of the USBs to a Dac
- The D-Fi range sounds better than anything I've heard at comparable money...your kit may have far more potential than you realize.
- As you can see from my close-up photo of the Pulse X s/c, he has done something completely different to every other cable on the planet...so why not go and see for yourself if its made a difference.
AND FINALLY
A big thank you to all at Kronos AV (David, Gary and Keith) for the splendid and fascinating evening. It was quite a scoop to get Touraj over to NI, as he is doing very little of this kind of thing in the rest of the UK this year.
Cno
THE CABLING
- As above for iPod, PC and Bel Canto Dac
- I/C PULSE B (£731 - 0.65m) and PULSE R (£2046 - 0.65m)
- S/C PULSE X (£1350 - 2M) and PULSE X Ref+* (£2500 - 2M)
*The only difference is the plugs.
Though not used, there is a PULSE C range:
I/C...£286 for 1.1m
S/C...£395 for 2m
So the I/C range goes (I think): PULSE D-Fi -> C -> B -> B Ref -> R -> PULSE (Handmade)
and S/C: D-Fi -> X -> X Ref -> PULSE Handmade (I think).
THE FORMAT
1. As with the budget system ie. iPod/PC/BC Dac
2. Electro CDP was inserted and the system used all PULSE B I/Cs and PULSE X S/C
3. PULSE R inserted between CDP and Pre
4. PULSE R also inserted between pre and power
5. PULSE X Ref+ S/C replaced the standard X.
Apologies if all this Pulsing is confusing....but that's because it is....I've tried to lay it out as simply as possible, and may well have got it wrong.
THE SOUND
Now the moment of truth. As this system got into its stride, there was more of everything....and now there was bass.
To me, starting with the iPod, the sound was good, but I certainly felt the system was being held back....like a Farrari with a timid pensioner behind the wheel.
As we progressed through the same steps as before, there was an incremental improvement...but I was still not blown away. It was interesting to note that I felt the same improvement was there when the DD USB was inserted (I know, I know, I'm deluded!)
At last the Electro CDP came on line with the cheaper PULSE B (compared to the Pulse R, but certainly not cheap). Now that's better - the class of this system started to shine through....and was a fine example of the importance of the source. The naturalness and openness moved up several notches.
The mid range and treble was clear, detailed and sweet, but the bass, to my mind wasn't quite right. I suspect it was mostly the room, and there is also the fact that the STs aren't big enough to do barn storming bass (and certainly not in a room like that).
Next came the insertion of the PULSE R between CDP and Pre. The effect was subtle yet profound. I hadn't realized there was a very slight boxiness to the sound until then. As I have often said, good is good, until you hear better.
With the insertion of the second PULSE R (Pre -> Power), again an improvement, but interestingly to my ears, not as much as the insertion of the first one from the CDP....imo showing that preserving the signal from the source has the biggest effect.
The final stage was the addition of the PULSE X Ref+ S/C. Now we were really hearing what this beautiful system was capable of. The sound was like having "no cable". We were now in the front row of an intimate concert, with the level of detail being very impressive...all those little details and ambient noises, which are usually missing on less expensive systems, were there.
The Electro kit is truly impressive, but if I was being a little picky, the STs bass was not quite right....but improved noticeably with the better cables.
It was the same pieces of music that were used to give some consistency between each change. After this was finished, anyone who had brought a CD, had it played.
CONCLUSION
I can't do anything about those who think I was bamboozled into hearing things that weren't there, and fell prey to every self deluded-brain trickery going. All I can tell you, is that nearly 40 years of hearing all sorts of systems, at all sorts of prices, allows me to bring a little insight and experience to the proceedings..even allowing for the subjective nature of it.
Surprisingly, the lasting impression I had from the evening, was not how good the expensive system was, but just how good the cheap system was made sound. I can't stress this enough, and don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Go listen for yourself and please report back on what you find...even if it's in complete contrast to my opinion.
The expensive cables were really impressive, but so were ones from Atlas (Mavros/Asimi); Telurium Q (Ultra Black); Cardas (Golden Cross / Ref)...and without a direct comparison, it's impossible to tell.
Actually, I think it's with the cheap cables that he may have something that is frighteningly hard to beat at the money.
If you take noting else out of what I've said, take out this:
- If you have an iPod or PC, try the D-Fi 3.5 jack to RCA..or one of the USBs to a Dac
- The D-Fi range sounds better than anything I've heard at comparable money...your kit may have far more potential than you realize.
- As you can see from my close-up photo of the Pulse X s/c, he has done something completely different to every other cable on the planet...so why not go and see for yourself if its made a difference.
AND FINALLY
A big thank you to all at Kronos AV (David, Gary and Keith) for the splendid and fascinating evening. It was quite a scoop to get Touraj over to NI, as he is doing very little of this kind of thing in the rest of the UK this year.
Cno
gregvet
Well-known member
Thanks Cno. Interesting, especially how good you found the cheap system. Is there gonna be a cheap pair of 205/2s going soon then? If so count me first in line :cheer:
gregvet said:
Cheers Greg.
I don't believe there are many people who have heard the range of Vertere cables, but there is good feedback from those who have. I look forward to hearing from anyone who does get to try them out.
Definately, the thing that left a lasting impression with me, was how good it made an iPod sound through this humble system...and their D-Fi range isn't mad money. Though good, I don't believe there was anything particularly special about the Sansui amp/cdp, but it sounded really good for what it cost.
BTW My Refs are remaining exactly where they are.....The more speakers I hear, the more I appreciate their talents.
Thx for the support
Cno
BenLaw
Well-known member
BenLaw said:
To the best of my memory, sometimes a group of songs were compared, but more often than not, the same song was played after each change in its entirety. I had a notepad pad and jotted down what I heard. It's not perfect, but it was my initial gut impressions.
The idea is not to take my word as gospel, but mark it down as an interesting product, that is worth hearing if the chance arrives.
steve_1979
Well-known member
It sounds like a fun night out. I would have liked to have attended myself.
Was there any blind A/B comparisons or were all the tests sighted?
Was there any blind A/B comparisons or were all the tests sighted?
steve_1979 said:
It was a fun night, especially as it was so intimate.
There were no blind tests, as it wasn't that formal.
FWIW The feedback from the people that were there, was positive.
BenLaw
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:
Thanks for the reply Cno. I was just struggling to think of a way I'd trust my own judgment as to small ('incremental') changes in SQ when listening to unfamiliar music played through an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room. This is how I would choose to demonstrate such a product if I had one. Anyway, I'm glad you had what sounds like a very fun evening. I don't have much time even for listening to my own hifi at the moment, let alone demoing, let alone demoing cables, but I'm sure someone will be inspired by your experiences.
BenLaw
Well-known member
BenLaw said:
You are not wrong.
I have found in the past that my initial gut instinct is often right....though saying that, I am certainly not claiming an infallable report. Taken at its most basic level, I heard enough to believe that people will be hearing more about Vertere in the not too distant future.
Cheers
Cno
BenLaw
Well-known member
From my limited experience these cable demonstrations always seem to be of the incremental variety, add another cable or swap for the cable for the next one up. Have you been to any where they do the whole shebang in one go? Ie here's the basic system with no name cables, now we're putting in the best interconnects between each component and the best speaker cable?
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