an ancient cd player vs a modern day dac....the surprising conclusion

[shafesk]

Dear all,

I just want to share my experience comparing my Marantz CD 63 MK 2 KI vs my DacMagic connected to the cd player.

Let me first say that the differences were far more subtle when I burned a cd from itunes from 320kbps mp3s. However it was when I played a Dire Straits CD that the differences became clear. The Marantz appears more weighty, the soundstage is more focused and backward and forward soundstaging is far more clearer. It seemed like I was sitting in center stage.

The Dac Magic sounded thinner, the bass weight just wasn't there. The detail levels are about the same and is too close to call. Interestingly, I could hear more differences between the DacMagic's individual filters than I had heard before with any other source. I chose the min filter if anyone is interested. The soundstage was wider though not as hollowgraphic.

There are pros and cons to both and I think individual tastes would be the deciding factor. The Dac Magic sounds more modern I suppose for people growing up with mp3s, the Marantz sounds more analogue.

The conclusion, you can't always improve on a cdp just by adding a dac, in many cases like this I suppose you can make matters worse. Interestingly, I felt connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin. We are all learning about hi-fi everyday and today I have learned that I would rather get a new cd player than add a dac to it if I want a truly big upgrade.

Just thought I'd share my honest view, hope someone else gets to gain from it. Your views may differ and I welcome your comments/criticism and please share your experience here.

Keep on listening,
Shafin

 

[stevebrock]

i think the proof is in pudding!

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC and i wouldnt expect a big improvement over the 5004, which imho is a great cdp.

I think you need to spend £500 really to start to see a decent improvement!

 

[chebby]

...connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin.

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC and i wouldnt expect a big improvement over the 5004...

Okay . Which is it?

I'll go with Shafin, as he actually tried it, whereas Steve is speculating on what he'd expect.

 

[matthewpiano]

Shafin, I've experienced similar results in the past. The CD63SE and variants thereof is a really good CD player and, having owned a CD6003, I'd say the older player gives current budget Marantz players quite a hard time. In fact the CD63SE is so good that I'm currently using it in preference to the (excellent) Roksan K2 which is currently sitting quietly on a storage shelf....

 

[the record spot]

Had the DacMagic (prior to the current incarnation) and was very unimpressed by it. Too clinical, plenty of detail, no character and robbed the music of vitality. I swapped it out and picked up a Firestone Audio Spitfire II and that was much better. Wonderful little DAC and more or less the same price.

Interestingly, the Sony amp I'm using just now has a DAC of 1989 (or so) vintage. The new Zeppelin "Celebration Day" Blu-Ray sounds fantastic through it.

 

[shafesk]

...connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin.

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC and i wouldnt expect a big improvement over the 5004...

Okay . Which is it?

I'll go with Shafin, as he actually tried it, whereas Steve is speculating on what he'd expect.

Perhaps he was talking about the CD63 instead?

 

[shafesk]

Shafin, I've experienced similar results in the past. The CD63SE and variants thereof is a really good CD player and, having owned a CD6003, I'd say the older player gives current budget Marantz players quite a hard time. In fact the CD63SE is so good that I'm currently using it in preference to the (excellent) Roksan K2 which is currently sitting quietly on a storage shelf....

Thats great to hear, can you tell me what sort of differences you hear between the K2 and the CD63?

 

[shafesk]

Had the DacMagic (prior to the current incarnation) and was very unimpressed by it. Too clinical, plenty of detail, no character and robbed the music of vitality. I swapped it out and picked up a Firestone Audio Spitfire II and that was much better. Wonderful little DAC and more or less the same price.

Interestingly, the Sony amp I'm using just now has a DAC of 1989 (or so) vintage. The new Zeppelin "Celebration Day" Blu-Ray sounds fantastic through it.

Well I thought the Dac-Magic was a good improvement over my pc but I have only owned two dacs in my life. I think its tuned for the mp3 generation, its fine for compressed mushy stuff but it doesn't have the 'soul' for great recordings. It's like a digital watch, fine for telling time but doesn't share the romance of a rolex.

 

[plastic penguin]

Dear all,

I just want to share my experience comparing my Marantz CD 63 MK 2 KI vs my DacMagic connected to the cd player.

Let me first say that the differences were far more subtle when I burned a cd from itunes from 320kbps mp3s. However it was when I played a Dire Straits CD that the differences became clear. The Marantz appears more weighty, the soundstage is more focused and backward and forward soundstaging is far more clearer. It seemed like I was sitting in center stage.

The Dac Magic sounded thinner, the bass weight just wasn't there. The detail levels are about the same and is too close to call. Interestingly, I could hear more differences between the DacMagic's individual filters than I had heard before with any other source. I chose the min filter if anyone is interested. The soundstage was wider though not as hollowgraphic.

There are pros and cons to both and I think individual tastes would be the deciding factor. The Dac Magic sounds more modern I suppose for people growing up with mp3s, the Marantz sounds more analogue.

The conclusion, you can't always improve on a cdp just by adding a dac, in many cases like this I suppose you can make matters worse. Interestingly, I felt connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin. We are all learning about hi-fi everyday and today I have learned that I would rather get a new cd player than add a dac to it if I want a truly big upgrade.

Just thought I'd share my honest view, hope someone else gets to gain from it. Your views may differ and I welcome your comments/criticism and please share your experience here.

Keep on listening,
Shafin

Interesting read, shafesk

I maybe in a minority, but your conclusion doesn't surprise me. First, I always believe a really good CDP has to have a really good built-in dac. I've not heard your Marantz but it does come with glowing recommendations. And second, when I had the DacMagic connected to my Arcam I found it to produce, like your findings, a thin and, also, mechanical sound. Once the Arcam was running on its own steam, although clarity and detail wasn't quite as good as the Cambridge, I found the Arcam to have more solidity to the presentation.

 

[bigblue235]

The conclusion, you can't always improve on a cdp just by adding a dac, in many cases like this I suppose you can make matters worse. Interestingly, I felt connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin. We are all learning about hi-fi everyday and today I have learned that I would rather get a new cd player than add a dac to it if I want a truly big upgrade.

All CD players have DACs, so all you're comparing is the DAC in the CD player to the standalone DAC. You preferred the one in this CD player, but if you buy a different CD player it will have a different DAC so it may not be an upgrade at all, let alone a big one. If you'd tried a different standalone DAC, that may have sounded better than the DAC in that particular CD player and you'd have come to the opposite conclusion.

It's all down to personal preference. A 'good', well-reviewed DAC may not produce a sound which is to your taste. I've heard some that I wasn't a fan of, but I like the sound of digital sources fed through my TV. No doubt the DAC in my TV cost a few pence, but it sounds good to me so I happily use it.

 

[stevebrock]

dont forget the engineering of the cdp between the DAC and Analogue section has a part to play in the sound quality too! its not all down to the DAC solely

 

[shafesk]

The conclusion, you can't always improve on a cdp just by adding a dac, in many cases like this I suppose you can make matters worse. Interestingly, I felt connecting a DacMagic to a Marantz 5004 (a much newer cdp), improved the 5004's sound by a huge margin. We are all learning about hi-fi everyday and today I have learned that I would rather get a new cd player than add a dac to it if I want a truly big upgrade.

All CD players have DACs, so all you're comparing is the DAC in the CD player to the standalone DAC. You preferred the one in this CD player, but if you buy a different CD player it will have a different DAC so it may not be an upgrade at all, let alone a big one. If you'd tried a different standalone DAC, that may have sounded better than the DAC in that particular CD player and you'd have come to the opposite conclusion.

It's all down to personal preference. A 'good', well-reviewed DAC may not produce a sound which is to your taste. I've heard some that I wasn't a fan of, but I like the sound of digital sources fed through my TV. No doubt the DAC in my TV cost a few pence, but it sounds good to me so I happily use it.

Well its not the only cd player I have owned, I also own a cd5004 which is a much newer model than the cd63. Yes I wanted to compare just dac vs dac. The CD5004+dac magic still sounds worse than cd63+dac magic. The CD63 on its own sounds better than all other combinations. I know sound quality is very subjective and that is why I have mentioned the tonal qualities of both precisely so it is upto the reader to decide which one is better. Having said that, I believe that readers don't fancy "thin sounding" and appreciate bass weight when it is not booming. All I want to point out is that it is better to upgrade a cd player than to spend money on a dac in the hopes of achieving the same result.

 

[bigblue235]

All I want to point out is that it is better to upgrade a cd player than to spend money on a dac in the hopes of achieving the same result.

I uderstand what you're getting at but I'd have to disagree, respectfully! I don't think it makes an awful lot of sense to upgrade a CD player nowadays if you're open to other options.

In the situation you described, you preferred a particular CD player to a particular DAC. If you'd had different DACs to hand (maybe the rDac which is considered fuller sounding than the DM) you may have found a combination that you preferred to the CD player.

Someone else listening to the same kit may come to a different conclusion to you. Regardless of how well you describe the sound, it's still entirely subjective

 

[drummerman]

Shafesk made an interesting comment and it harks back a few years when separate DAC's were relatively unfashionable, at least at the lower end of hifi. Today, they add versatility and reliability. Still, I guess transports and optics for these Marantz players and others are still available, therefore reasonably serviceable. Whilst I can't entirely agree with his subjective assessment of the player I also see why a change of cd deck can still make sense, even these days.

regards

 

[MajorFubar]

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC

Maybe in our little microcosm, but £300 isn't budget money for anything imo, and after you've partnered it with something decent you've easily blown £500+. Just goes to show, don't dismiss old stuff just because it's old. And the unfounded fear that elderly CD players are all on the verge of dying of old age is a myth. It's not like they're under a great deal of physical stress.

 

[stevebrock]

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC

Maybe in our little microcosm, but £300 isn't budget money for anything imo, and after you've partnered it with something decent you've easily blown £500+. Just goes to show, don't dismiss old stuff just because it's old. And the unfounded fear that elderly CD players are all on the verge of dying of old age is a myth. It's not like they're under a great deal of physical stress.

Yes i agree!

However I would never ever dismiss an old CDP - example being the CD63 Ki-Sig - I owned one and it is an absolutely superb player even by todays standards!

Me and a friend are always swapping bits of kit around and his Ki-Sig partnered with the matching amp & B&W 602 is a very good system!

 

[Ketan Bharadia]

The transport, and particularly the laser, tends to be the weak link in older players. If that's working properly there's no reason they won't last. Spare parts are starting to become an issue, though.

 

[MajorFubar]

However I would never ever dismiss an old CDP

Yeah I know mate That wasn't specifically aimed at you. Just generally, people often issue the (well indended) advice about staying away from old CD players. Yet with just a handful of exceptions, the risk of them suddenly biting the dust three days after you've dropped a couple of hundred on them is over-exaggerated.

 

[psurquhart]

What a great post Shafesk - brilliantly reviewed imo - they should give you a job on What Hi Fi !

This is one that could go on and on though because as you have correctly posted, it all really boils down to personal prefererences.

I still kick myself in the teeth for selling my Marantnz cd63se mk11 on fleabay a few years back. I really miss that sound, brilliant cd player.

Great read though, so thanks.

 

[MajorFubar]

When you think about it, it's asking a lot for a modern £300 DAC to take on a CDP which was a highly-respected £500 player some 15/16 years ago, which crucially was at the tail end CD players' "golden era".

If we use the Marantz as an example (though obviously there were other great players from that era as well), it's difficult to say exactly how much of that £500 was purely spent on sonics. But if you consider the basic CD-63 mk2 was half the price, then that gives you some idea.

For a good modern £300 DAC to take it on and win comfortably, then the cost of manufacturing DAC circuitry of any given sonic calibre needs to have halved in 15 years. I'm not sure it has.

I tend to use my Mac Mini with my HRT II+ more than my CD63KI player, really for convenience-sake more than anything else. I'm really not at all sure that it sounds better.

 

[plastic penguin]

It all boils down to preference: Do you want versatility or just play CDs?

 

[Native_bon]

When it comes to any source hifi equipment these days the differences are very little. Again it all depends what you patntering the source with. Something that sounds thin in one system may sound good in another. Like most people may be aware by now, Hifi is a very tricky business. You have to get some much right to get the right sound, or may I say the type of sound you looking for.

I have a recording studio & also having been to so many over the years I have come to the conclusion that the speakers has to be the best you can afford then take it from there to know what your source & amp actually sound like. I think only then can u really built a good system. This is just my opinion, others may think otherwise.

If am to really to decide about dacs & cdps a traditional hifi system I will say cdp anyday. Computer based systems & or both hifi & computer systems then dacs start to make sense.

 

[MajorFubar]

Just picking-up on an easily-overlooked point in Shafin's opening post:

Let me first say that the differences were far more subtle when I burned a cd from itunes from 320kbps mp3s. However it was when I played a Dire Straits CD that the differences became clear.

...which kind of infers that all those people who say that 320k MP3s sound just the same as CDs need to try listening to real CDs on a decent player.

 

[Anonymous]

Very interesting. I've often looked at CD63 KIs on Ebay and wondered about taking the plunge.

Inflation is probably a factor in the relative performances, too. The Marantz' £500 list price is more like £750 in 2012 terms, while the Dacmagic would have been around £200 in the late nineties.

 

[Native_bon]

Very interesting. I've often looked at CD63 KIs on Ebay and wondered about taking the plunge.

Inflation is probably a factor in the relative performances, too. The Marantz' £500 list price is more like £750 in 2012 terms, while the Dacmagic would have been around £200 in the late nineties.

yes true, but think technology has moved on abit since then.