an ancient cd player vs a modern day dac....the surprising conclusion

[MajorFubar]

yes true, but think technology has moved on abit since then.

True but in terms of audio quality, as I said above, I'm not sure it's moved on so much that a cheap(ish) modern CDP or DAC will routinely outperform one of the best CDPs from CD's heyday.

 

[NHL]

The new DAC's sound differ surprisingly much from older DAC's. Can it be the preamps, which have gone from discrete components to pure IC with switched power supply?

 

[shafesk]

When you think about it, it's asking a lot for a modern £300 DAC to take on a CDP which was a highly-respected £500 player some 15/16 years ago, which crucially was at the tail end CD players' "golden era". If we use the Marantz as an example (though obviously there were other great players from that era as well), it's difficult to say exactly how much of that £500 was purely spent on sonics. But if you consider the basic CD-63 mk2 was half the price, then that gives you some idea. For a good modern £300 DAC to take it on and win comfortably, then the cost of manufacturing DAC circuitry of any given sonic calibre needs to have halved in 15 years. I'm not sure it has. I tend to use my Mac Mini with my HRT II+ more than my CD63KI player, really for convenience-sake more than anything else. I'm really not at all sure that it sounds better.

You are right, in terms of adjusted price level the 500 pound cd 63 KI would be much more expensive and let's not forget it was quite a high end cdp whereas the dacmagic is an entry level dac. However, I thought that since the Dacmagic is so raved about that it would have performed better or even outperformed the cd 63.

 

[shafesk]

What a great post Shafesk - brilliantly reviewed imo - they should give you a job on What Hi Fi !

This is one that could go on and on though because as you have correctly posted, it all really boils down to personal prefererences.

I still kick myself in the teeth for selling my Marantnz cd63se mk11 on fleabay a few years back. I really miss that sound, brilliant cd player.

Great read though, so thanks.

Thank you for the kind words, a job at Whathifi would for me be a dream come true. I do have a blog on hi-fi which you are welcome to visit at www.audio-fixation.blogspot.com

 

[MajorFubar]

When you think about it, it's asking a lot for a modern £300 DAC to take on a CDP which was a highly-respected £500 player some 15/16 years ago, which crucially was at the tail end CD players' "golden era". If we use the Marantz as an example (though obviously there were other great players from that era as well), it's difficult to say exactly how much of that £500 was purely spent on sonics. But if you consider the basic CD-63 mk2 was half the price, then that gives you some idea. For a good modern £300 DAC to take it on and win comfortably, then the cost of manufacturing DAC circuitry of any given sonic calibre needs to have halved in 15 years. I'm not sure it has. I tend to use my Mac Mini with my HRT II+ more than my CD63KI player, really for convenience-sake more than anything else. I'm really not at all sure that it sounds better.

You are right, in terms of adjusted price level the 500 pound cd 63 KI would be much more expensive and let's not forget it was quite a high end cdp whereas the dacmagic is an entry level dac. However, I thought that since the Dacmagic is so raved about that it would have performed better or even outperformed the cd 63.

Very true Shafin, it just goes to show technology hasn't advanced as much as some people think in SQ terms. Maybe the baseline has been raised with today's budget players beating yesterday's budget players (even then I wouldn't like to risk a bet without listening first), but a great CD player is still a great CD player no matter how old it is.

 

[ReValveiT]

I had the DM for a while... Concluded it was utter kak.

 

[the record spot]

Thank you for the kind words, a job at Whathifi would for me be a dream come true. I do have a blog on hi-fi which you are welcome to visit at www.audio-fixation.blogspot.com

Read some of the blog Shafin, but find it hard going in as much as there's a liberal sprinkling of opinion that I can't agree or just plain get on with. I tend to slightly despair when I read comments out there that considers all contemporary music as rubbish, or that a separates system bought secondhand for £100 will blow any iPod away.

Fact 1: All contemporary music is not rubbish (I draw your attention at this point to Julie Feeney's "Pages" album)

Fact 2: With some good headphones - Sennheiser CX300 IIs or Motorheadphones Triggers - your iPod will comfortably perform at a level that would surprise you. Performance bears up to scrutiny very well indeed. I can enjoy the music quite nicely thanks.

 

[shafesk]

Hi RS, thank you for visiting the blog. Since these are subjective statements they will always be agreed or disagreed upon. I myself said that there are good ones like John Mayer and Adele but that I found mainstream contemporary music is not my cup of coffee. I actually own a pair of CX300s myself, I don't think the performance is surprising by any measure to be honest. I much rather like a Grado sr60 or igrados with the ipod. Every system that I've heard my friends put together for less than the cost of an ipod sounded more musical. Like I said, your experience/opinion may differ. I will try to keep that in mind when I'm writing the next time.

Regards,

Shafin

 

[CnoEvil]

Thank you for the kind words, a job at Whathifi would for me be a dream come true. I do have a blog on hi-fi which you are welcome to visit at www.audio-fixation.blogspot.com

I read (fairly quickly) through your blog, which I found well written and covered a lot of (imo) the salient points, and like the right length skirt.....short enough to be interesting, but long enough to cover the essentials. I commend you for your effort (not meant to sound patronizing)

It is very difficult to keep a neutral perspective and almost impossible to keep subjectivity out of the equation, as this is hifi after all. A lot of your "observations" match my own, but one needs to be careful not to let generalizations creep in.

It is easy to get discouraged, especially if after all that effort, people only pick on a couple of points and ignore the rest (this is not specifically directed at anyone, but a general observation on what's inclined to happen)...so some positive feedback is nice to get.

I would encourage you to try and hear what Vertere with their h/phone jack -> RCA can do for sound quality, from an iPod (as described in my "evening with Touraj Moghaddam" thread).

Linn Radio was a revelation to me, as their 320 kbps stuff is so well mastered, that it sounds better than some of my less well mastered CDs at redbook standard.....though I too notice a difference with each step up in resolution (I have the same Linn track at the 3 different levels - 320/16 bit/24 bit).

Keep up the good work

Cno

 

[shafesk]

Thank you for the kind words, a job at Whathifi would for me be a dream come true. I do have a blog on hi-fi which you are welcome to visit at www.audio-fixation.blogspot.com

I read (fairly quickly) through your blog, which I found well written and covered a lot of (imo) the salient points, and like the right length skirt.....short enough to be interesting, but long enough to cover the essentials. I commend you for your effort (not meant to sound patronizing)

It is very difficult to keep a neutral perspective and almost impossible to keep subjectivity out of the equation, as this is hifi after all. A lot of your "observations" match my own, but one needs to be careful not to let generalizations creep in.

It is easy to get discouraged, especially if after all that effort, people only pick on a couple of points and ignore the rest (this is not specifically directed at anyone, but a general observation on what's inclined to happen)...so some positive feedback is nice to get.

I would encourage you to try and hear what Vertere with their h/phone jack -> RCA can do for sound quality, from an iPod (as described in my "evening with Touraj Moghaddam" thread).

Linn Radio was a revelation to me, as their 320 kbps stuff is so well mastered, that it sounds better than some of my less well mastered CDs at redbook standard.....though I too notice a difference with each step up in resolution (I have the same Linn track at the 3 different levels - 320/16 bit/24 bit).

Keep up the good work

Cno

Hi Cno, thank you for your kind words. I am glad you agree that it is not entirely possible to be subjective on hi-fi as it is in itself a subjective and passionate hobby. I spend a lot of time finalising my articles because my blog is meant to reel people in to hi-fi and music, a post too short will not inform them enough whereas a post too long will not want them to read it. I believe I am improving, I try to read all the material I can find and try to base the whole blog on my personal experiences. I think you can see that as the blog progresses my reviews mature, noticing more things in more recent articles than I have previously....it is how the reader should feel too after spending more time with hi-fi. I am still young and I have a lot to learn from the likes of you and RS, you two having been around the forum much longer than I so it is great to receive feedback from you both. I hope to keep both of you hooked to the blog a bit longer in the coming articles.

Regards,

Shafin

 

[stephennic]

The dacmagic is a relatively budget DAC

Maybe in our little microcosm, but £300 isn't budget money for anything imo, and after you've partnered it with something decent you've easily blown £500+. Just goes to show, don't dismiss old stuff just because it's old. And the unfounded fear that elderly CD players are all on the verge of dying of old age is a myth. It's not like they're under a great deal of physical stress.

Yes i agree!

However I would never ever dismiss an old CDP - example being the CD63 Ki-Sig - I owned one and it is an absolutely superb player even by todays standards!

Me and a friend are always swapping bits of kit around and his Ki-Sig partnered with the matching amp & B&W 602 is a very good system!

Hi,

I still have the marantz cd 63se a wonderful cd player. I am wondering how your new rega apollo-r compares to the marantz sonically, as I heard it is a very musical cd player.

I did use a cambridge audio dacmagic 2ii form the 90's which I think is much better than the new dacmagic sonically , the old one had that analogue signature. I put that on the marantz cd63se on it and it made the sound became more smoother and the bass became very solid and the sound was sligtly more natural but there was really no differnence in soundstage. I did compare the marantz 63se to the newer budget marantz models and just found the old marantz more natural and musical and a better machine overall.

Cheers

Steve

 

[shafesk]

Thank you for the kind words, a job at Whathifi would for me be a dream come true. I do have a blog on hi-fi which you are welcome to visit at www.audio-fixation.blogspot.com

I would encourage you to try and hear what Vertere with their h/phone jack -> RCA can do for sound quality, from an iPod (as described in my "evening with Touraj Moghaddam" thread).

Cno

Hi Cno,

I've read that thread quite a few times, especially where you can't believe its a 3K setup....rather interestingly I have a 3K setup and I'm wondering whether these would transform my setup the same way......to be honest my system sounds pretty darn good now that I've got a proper hi-fi rack, have removed 60 feet of speaker cables and replaced them with 6feet of qed revelations and changed my interconnects to qed performance 2s. (I haven't posted my thoughts on the forum yet because I'm still waiting for my "I have spent money so it must be better" phase to pass to a point where I can subjectively review things). I might indeed suggest the Vertere's to a friend who has just bought a brilliant audiolab 8000 pre/power paired with BnW 683s but is using just his macbook as his source. I heard it yesterday and it didn't sould half as good as the demo room which was using the macbook too but had aftermarket mains cables and interconnects.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno,

I've read that thread quite a few times, especially where you can't believe its a 3K setup....rather interestingly I have a 3K setup and I'm wondering whether these would transform my setup the same way......to be honest my system sounds pretty darn good now that I've got a proper hi-fi rack, have removed 60 feet of speaker cables and replaced them with 6feet of qed revelations and changed my interconnects to qed performance 2s. (I haven't posted my thoughts on the forum yet because I'm still waiting for my "I have spent money so it must be better" phase to pass to a point where I can subjectively review things). I might indeed suggest the Vertere's to a friend who has just bought a brilliant audiolab 8000 pre/power paired with BnW 683s but is using just his macbook as his source. I heard it yesterday and it didn't sould half as good as the demo room which was using the macbook too but had aftermarket mains cables and interconnects.

The story has got a little exaggerated in the telling ....if you check again you will see that the budget system was actually £650 (power cables extra), and what I said was "if they had told me it cost £2k, I'd wouldn't have questioned it".

The Pulse D-Fi are brilliant cables for bringing a budget system to life. For a more mid-range system, the Pulse C (which I didn't hear) would be worth a shot (all equipment and prices are listed in the thread).

One of the messages I took away from the evening, was how good an iThingy or Laptop could be made sound through the h/phone socket....still trying to get my head round it It's certainly worth a demo if looking to play music this way. How well it would work without D-Fi cabling all round, I have no idea.

If you can find a dealer who will lend you some, that is the way to go.