Amplifier house sound

[davedotco]

I was pondering last night this "house sound vs all amplifiers sound the same" issue and I wondered why manufacturers don't put bass, treble and bypass controls on their equipment anymore. Then a hypothesis slowly dawned on me. What if they took such controls off amplifiers in the first place precisely because all amplifiers in bypass mode do sound the same. What if they took them off and set their amplifier"s tone to a desired spot internally, creating a house sound and ergo a unique spot in the market place for themselves. What better way to manipulate a market than for all the major manufacturers to take the end user control out of the sound they got, making those users gravitate to products in the now differential market.

It would go a long way towards explaining why many will not put these controls back on.

This is exactly what many amplifier manufacturers do except that they are clever enough to manipulate the sound without doing anything as obvious (or measurable) as changing the frequency response.

There are all kinds of ways that this can be done, input sensitivity and 'managing' gain for example, power response tailoring, damping factor etc, etc.

And of course, good old marketing...*mail1*

 

[CnoEvil]

Subjective experiences are very real and important, it helps us identify things that work for us rather than against.

The point being discussed is whether these experiences can be transposed into some kind of objective evidence that allows us to discuss these 'differences' in a way that translates as something meaningfull to another person. This implies the involvement of some kind of scientific methods that allow us to listen to different models and make comparisons that are consistent and repeatable.

The problem is that once such methods are employed the differences that are so obvious in subjective, sighted tests all but disappear. I have made some suggestions as to why I think we react to different models in the way that we do, but then it could all be just expectation bias...*unknw*

TBF, the original post asked whether there was such a thing as House Sound. He didn't specifically ask to scientifically prove it.

Given this is not a science forum, the only way the vast majority can do this, is from past experience.

When there is consensus from the majority of people, who all hear the same traits from a brand, then that is the best most of us are going to get, in the form of validation. If the OP had to wait for a reply that supplied proof/evidence, he wouldn't have got a single one.

In my very unprofessional opinion, house sound comes from areas like topology, layout, design, power supply.

 

[TrevC]

Some amp makers boost the bass by a significant amount to make their amps sound 'better' at lower to medium volumes.

LOL. House sound is a nonsense. All in the mind.

Dear oh dear oh dear ...

How could an amplifier engineered for a flat response within the audio band also have a house sound Tony? It's based on how stuff looks, not how it sounds. I exclude valve amps, the house sound for them is the house sound of the connected speakers.

 

[TrevC]

house sound comes from areas like topology, layout, design, power supply.

Nope. It comes from your imagination via your ears.

 

[CnoEvil]

house sound comes from areas like topology, layout, design, power supply.

Nope. It comes from your imagination via your ears.

Hi Trev

Good to see you out and about.

 

[TrevC]

Some amp makers boost the bass by a significant amount to make their amps sound 'better' at lower to medium volumes.

LOL. House sound is a nonsense. All in the mind.

An amp with 10dB boost in the bass will sound different to one that doesn't have this.

An amp with the bass control cranked up to the max will sound different? You don't say. :O)

and if they design that into all their amps they will therefore have a "house sound".

So you can remove the house sound simply by twiddling the tone controls.

 

[TrevC]

I was pondering last night this "house sound vs all amplifiers sound the same" issue and I wondered why manufacturers don't put bass, treble and bypass controls on their equipment anymore. Then a hypothesis slowly dawned on me. What if they took such controls off amplifiers in the first place precisely because all amplifiers in bypass mode do sound the same. What if they took them off and set their amplifier"s tone to a desired spot internally, creating a house sound and ergo a unique spot in the market place for themselves. What better way to manipulate a market than for all the major manufacturers to take the end user control out of the sound they got, making those users gravitate to products in the now differential market.

It would go a long way towards explaining why many will not put these controls back on.

Far far simpler than that. It's cheaper to make an amplifier without tone controls and you can also sell it for more if it's considered to be an audiophile product by those not in the know.

 

[Vladimir]

Tone controls cost only few quid and are simple to make and implement, and have been for decades. Cost is not the factor why they are gone.

Tone controls were dropped because of the press hand in hand with audio foo manufacturers claiming they degrade sound quality. This is to instigate more frequent change of gear, 'upgrading', tuning and fiddling with 'synergy'. Instead of twirling few knobs, now you buy new cables, new amp, new CDP, new 500 GBP cartridge etc. Sugar pills galore.

Conspiracy? No, it's called doing business. As usual, caveat emptor.

 

[tonky]

Let the buyer beware - hopefully, they audition well - THAT is what is most important INMHO - two personal examples 1.CA 840A v2 - the tone controls only had small effect changing bass and treble - far too subtle. Sound was better with tone defeated. 2. Same with a Marantz pearl lite I auditioned a couple of years ago.. It's the balance of the whole system heard which matters. If a system incorporates digital tone controls and the buyer is happy - that's no problem.

btw the biggest shift in tone That i heard was when I had a rega dac on home audition with my CA 840A..and epos es 14 speakers. The upper mid and treble sounded as if it was rolled off far too early. Therefore it enhanced the lower mid and bass region. Total night and day effect. (Van Gogh would have noticed it!) The sound went flatter and soundstage narrower. I didn't keep it.

tonky

 

[Blacksabbath25]

i myself thought there was a house sound but it can not be proved that there is a house sound i thought marantz did this but i was wrong as we talked about this the other night and we had the spec up on the marantz and it just had a flat characteristics so this must come down to power supply, speakers , cd player dac , room but its funny when you go for a demo and hear 3 or 4 amps and thay do not sound the same why is that ?

 

[davedotco]

i myself thought there was a house sound but it can not be proved that there is a house sound i thought marantz did this but i was wrong as we talked about this the other night and we had the spec up on the marantz and it just had a flat characteristics so this must come down to power supply, speakers , cd player dac , room but its funny when you go for a demo and hear 3 or 4 amps and thay do not sound the same why is that ?

Several reasons.

Firstly, they are not played at the same volume, this is impossible to do by ear and renders any such demonstration pointless as an evaluation of the amplifier. The louder amplifier always sounds more focused, clearer better soundstage etc, etc.

At best you will get to hear how various amplifiers work in different systems and whether any of them appeal to you, but mostly this preference will be about what you see and 'know', not what you hear.

Secondly, even if the comparison is fair, so much will depend on how well or otherwise the amplifier works with the speakers and the system. Some amplifiers suit some speakers better than others, this can be audible, hence why some speakers appear to sound bright with some amps and not others.

Finally, and most comprehensively, you normally know what you are listening to, expectation bias is becoming somewhat tedious on here but it is real and has a huge input on what you 'hear'.

 

[keeper of the quays]

I had forgotten about the tone controls on the ca amp..on my 640 it had those tone controls and your right it was quite a subtle change..

 

[keeper of the quays]

I think Cambridge audio defo have a typical sound, warm open detailed...very nice. Very English sort of sound? If you know what I mean..

 

[tonky]

My opinion is that as DDC says - ab comparisons can be very difficult due to volume level parity between amps. - But in a listening area (ie home) that you are comfortable in - it is not too difficult to hear differences between amps (even if the power difference between them is noticeable when you turn the "knob")

My CA840A. V2 goes far louder than the Unitilite amp. But the difference in sound to me is obvious. I can't play the Unitilite as loud - but it doesn't matter - it sounds better at all those levels below the CA840A.

tonky

 

[CnoEvil]

My opinion is that as DDC says - ab comparisons can be very difficult due to volume level parity between amps. - But in a listening area (ie home) that you are comfortable in - it is not too difficult to hear differences between amps (even if the power difference between them is noticeable when you turn the "knob")

My CA840A. V2 goes far louder than the Unitilite amp. But the difference in sound to me is obvious. I can't play the Unitilite as loud - but it doesn't matter - it sounds better at all those levels below the CA840A.

tonky

I have also found that it often takes time to fully appreciate the differences, which can take a week or more.
I have heard amps that initially impressed, but on an extended home demo became annoying. An example of this was the Moon i7. It often takes a known system and familiar music to highlight this.

 

[Vladimir]

I've noticed that it takes at least 6 months using the amplifier daily to notice night and day differences. *dirol*

 

[chebby]

I've noticed that it takes at least 6 months using the amplifier daily to notice night and day differences. *dirol*

Whereas wives and girlfriends can hear improvements immediately (even from another room). This is always inversely proportional to their knowledge of/interest in hi-fi ...

"My wife - who normally hates hi-fi and everything linked to it - commented that she could hear the difference from the basement where she was digging a new tunnel."

 

[Vladimir]

Currently watching it. Linky

 

[ID.]

I've noticed that it takes at least 6 months using the amplifier daily to notice night and day differences. *dirol*

Whereas wives and girlfriends can hear improvements immediately (even from another room). This is always inversely proportional to their knowledge of/interest in hi-fi ...

"My wife - who normally hates hi-fi and everything linked to it - commented that she could hear the difference from the basement where she was digging a new tunnel."

Yeah, what is it with women and tunnels? Always with the tunneling.

I tend to go with one of your other takes on it, which is that it's not necessarily a keen sense of hearing but just generally being more perceptive than men. It's noticing that audio obsessed hubby has been fiddling around the back of the stereo again, and looks at her with an expectant grin, almost begging her to tell him how much better it sounds so she decides to indulge him.

 

[Vladimir]

The same thought lurks in every audiophile wife's head, "At least he's not playing with model trains".

 

[ID.]

Now back to the topic, we all know Arcam are laid back and need brightish speakers, Naim has PRaT and sound feistier than the quoted wattage suggests, Rotel sound quite neutral but might be a bit clinical - ensure to pair with B&W, Cyrus are clinical and bright, etc., etc.

Also bear in mind that Class D amps don't sound quite right, while Class A just sounds right and to some tubes sound even righter, especially with voices and acoustic instruments. Vinyl is warm. Silver cables are bright.

what other accepted wisdom have I missed.

 

[CnoEvil]

Now back to the topic, we all know Arcam are laid back and need brightish speakers, Naim has PRaT and sound feistier than the quoted wattage suggests, Rotel sound quite neutral but might be a bit clinical - ensure to pair with B&W, Cyrus are clinical and bright, etc., etc.

Also bear in mind that Class D amps don't sound quite right, while Class A just sounds right and to some tubes sound even righter, especially with voices and acoustic instruments. Vinyl is warm. Silver cables are bright.?

what other accepted wisdom have I missed. 

...and as for Actives....they're just for Hardline Fruitloops!!

 

[TrevC]

Now back to the topic, we all know Arcam are laid back and need brightish speakers, Naim has PRaT and sound feistier than the quoted wattage suggests, Rotel sound quite neutral but might be a bit clinical - ensure to pair with B&W, Cyrus are clinical and bright, etc., etc.

Also bear in mind that Class D amps don't sound quite right, while Class A just sounds right and to some tubes sound even righter, especially with voices and acoustic instruments. Vinyl is warm. Silver cables are bright.

what other accepted wisdom have I missed.

...and as for Actives....they're just for Hardline Fruitloops!!

Or if you expect to hear something a certain way you usually do.

 

[CnoEvil]

Or if you expect to hear something a certain way you usually do. 

...and conversely, if you expect to hear little to no difference, you usually do.

 

[steve_1979]

Now back to the topic, we all know Arcam are laid back and need brightish speakers, Naim has PRaT and sound feistier than the quoted wattage suggests, Rotel sound quite neutral but might be a bit clinical - ensure to pair with B&W, Cyrus are clinical and bright, etc., etc.

Also bear in mind that Class D amps don't sound quite right, while Class A just sounds right and to some tubes sound even righter, especially with voices and acoustic instruments. Vinyl is warm. Silver cables are bright.

what other accepted wisdom have I missed.

All active speakers sound clinical and emotionless.

Apparently.

I think it's really a reflection of how something looks. Most active speakers are studio monitors which do look clinical and emotionless therefore they must sound that way. HiFi speakers look warm and inviting with their nice wooden veneers and fancy styling therefore they must sound warm and inviting. The same goes for CD players and amplifiers. You can easily be influenced by the styling of the cases and the price tag into thinking that it'll sound like it looks and costs.