Amp sounds worse plugged into mains conditioner?

[britain4]

Just for the benefit of anyone reading this thread for the first time, I now don't think these issues were caused by my mains conditioner after all, but they can reportedly have negative effects to the sound of amps in certain systems so just bear that in mind

I’d previously been using my kit plugged into a generic IKEA power strip with an Isotek Isoplug in it. Very happy with the sound, then I found my Clearer Audio Copper Line mains filter in a box and plugged it all in. Had a listen and... hmm, it’s missing something. Sounds a bit lifeless, soundstage is smaller, seems to have mellowed out the sound but not in a good way - it’s a bit “pipe and slippers”. Plugged the A400 back into my IKEA block with the Isoplug and the sound I loved was back.

I think the CD player sounds a bit sweeter but hard to say, it already had a Russ Andrews Silencer and Clarity Mains fitted in it (free, from a broken RA Sky box)

My question is - what gives, I’d read reports of conditioners having negative effects on amps but I thought this was just sceptics having a moan? Has anyone else actually experienced this or am I just making it up??

 

[nopiano]

Like you, I've heard this described before, but I've never used a conditioner. (The nearest I have is a Tacima block on a tv and DVD setup near to a modem and answering machine in our cottage. )

It occurs to me that many contributors say they cannot hear or believe that mains cables can change the sound, so maybe you're imagining it. But whether real or not, it's easy to choose what you like best!

Currently I have all my Hi-Fi plugged into one Russ Andrews 8-way extension, but in the past I've tended to put the amp direct into the wall. Must try it one day!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

We use all of our components with either their mains cables plugged into wall sockets of if required into Wilkinson stores mains extension blocks. Simple.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I have heard negative feedback on mains conditioners within the naim forum.(on naim amplifiers)...but nothing negative about their own powerlines...go figure.

 

[britain4]

Thanks all. My thinking was there’s a lot of people who swear by these things, so even if I can’t hear a difference with just the mains block, then combined with 10 other small tweaks it might be helping somehow. (I got it for free anyway, wouldn’t be spending £100 to find that out)

It’s one thing someone spending a load of money on a tweak expecting it to be the bees knees and then finding out it “transformed” their system, but I found the opposite of what I expected. Repeatedly A-B compared it with the same track and it consistently sounded worse. I bet the psychology behind all this is extremely interesting!

 

[insider9]

Lots of people also like Justin Bieber

But honestly it may just be that it does work in their homes with their systems.

The psychology behind many things hifi is indeed incredibly interesting.

 

[newlash09]

mains conditioners should'nt contribute much to sound quality, considering the quality of modern power distribution boards. Recently our company installed expensive conditioners on our satellite communications systems. The problem with ships power systems is that as machinery keeps cutting in and cutting out of load, the frequency of the generated power keeps swinging on either sides of 60hz. The same shouldn't happen in land networks, as house hold equipment really dont draw that much power. And we only have voltage fluctuations which can be corrected with spike protectors.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Conditioners do contribute to systems very well but it depends on the system, how revealing it is, and what your expectations are for a power device where they can’t be anywhere near as good as amps and speakers for the same money. So realise they are less good value. Also if anyone is putting anything but budget conditioners on budget systems, prepare to waste your money. It also comes down to how noisy your system is too and how noisy the supply is in common mode and differential mode noise.

Ive tested premium conditioners like the isotek Aquarius and isol 8 minisub axis, and they produced very good results in my system. I haven’t bought yet as I didn’t think the sound benefits huge against the money. If money was no object yes, but some of these are over £1000 and they do tend to work better than your mains blocks like the isotek mains blocks. But my problem was when I took them away the sound was less rich and refined, not as detailed and not as bass responsive,but it was a difference I could get used to for the money. So that was the overriding issue. If I had money to spend again and nothing else to spend on in my system, i would probably get one of these. But Tacima blocks arent as good as blocks like he basic isotek mains bar, from my tests a Tacima was not better than a £6 b and q block. I’m dubious of people who make blocks like russ andrews and music works, many are just elaborate mains blocks sold expensively because they see you coming. But the tech in some blocks like dc filtering does I think work. I borrowed a music works lite block at £500 and it’s one of the biggest rip offs you could ever buy, that said it isn’t a conditioner but elaborate power bar.

So id disagree mains conditioners do contribute to systems in the right ones but the overriding issue is, is it value for money? Probably not.

 

[britain4]

Plenty of different opinions here. I guess we will never really know. I’ve always seen them as the cherry on top when you’ve spent your budget on a system the next step might be to add a mains conditioner just to be sure it’s all performing as it should. I haven’t finished my system yet but was given the block for free so there we go.

It could be that what I consider is a less desirable sound might in someone else’s opinion be an improvement, could be some reverse expectation bias that I really don’t know the science behind, could be that it changes the sound in such a way to benefit certain systems but hold others back, or maybe it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference either way.

I’m thinking of roping my other half in (who will think I’m the worlds biggest saddo) to do a blind test and see if I can tell which is which then, and I’ll let you know how it goes!!

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it this that you are referring to? https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-power-hub

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Plenty of different opinions here. I guess we will never really know. I’ve always seen them as the cherry on top when you’ve spent your budget on a system the next step might be to add a mains conditioner just to be sure it’s all performing as it should. I haven’t finished my system yet but was given the block for free so there we go.

It could be that what I consider is a less desirable sound might in someone else’s opinion be an improvement, could be some reverse expectation bias that I really don’t know the science behind, could be that it changes the sound in such a way to benefit certain systems but hold others back, or maybe it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference either way.

I’m thinking of roping my other half in (who will think I’m the worlds biggest saddo) to do a blind test and see if I can tell which is which then, and I’ll let you know how it goes!!

i agree it’s the thing to do when you’ve done all else. It shouldn’t be that what one considers good is another’s bad as these conditioners bring universally good benefits in decent systems doing such things as reducing the noise floor, and most of all the reviews corroborate this experience and also if you’ve sat in on demos at shows too! So they have good effects on systems where those systems can ‘show’ the benefit of the mains tech, through the sound the hi Fi gives.

id be cautious of the attitude of sticking it on just to be sure. Im sure you could take some of these russ andrews power bar non conditioner devices out and they probably wouldn’t confer any sq benefit.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Is it this that you are referring to? https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-power-hub

this is the sort of star wired device that doesn’t look it has much mains conditioning ability not like isotek, isol 8etc. It’s what russ andrews and people like music works make, also mcru. I suspect for the price this has very limited mains conditioning ability. From its spec it doesn’t look like it has any. It’s looks just like expensive copper sold to make it look like it has a sq effect, but it’s effect will in my experience of trying similar devices be very limited. Just a bit of a con. The isotek Sirius will be a much better bet. I’d defy anyone to tell the difference of this device and a £6 b and q bar if it’s not doing anything to reject common mode and differential mode noise to any standard.

 

[britain4]

Is it this that you are referring to? https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-power-hub

Negative, it’s this one https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-alpha-power-hub

with the “Hyperion Filter System” *smile*

So it sounds like the thing could bring some actual benefits as long as I’m mistaken about it spoiling the sound...

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it this that you are referring to? https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-power-hub

this is the sort of star wired device that doesn’t look it has much mains conditioning ability not like isotek, isol 8etc. It’s what russ andrews and people like music works make, also mcru. I suspect for the price this has very limited mains conditioning ability. From its spec it doesn’t look like it has any. It’s looks just like expensive copper sold to make it look like it has a sq effect, but it’s effect will in my experience of trying similar devices be very limited. Just a bit of a con. The isotek Sirius will be a much better bet. I’d defy anyone to tell the difference of this device and a £6 b and q bar if it’s not doing anything to reject common mode and differential mode noise to any standard.

That's why I was asking the question....as there isn't a lot of circuitry in it....just the Gatekeeper surge protector.

I have tried various condtioning/mains regeneration in my system, including one from Isol8. I didn't like the result...made the sound rather "shiny" and clinical. My amp has always sounded best plugged directly into the wall.

I don't think conditioning can be done well and cheaply. The only 2 devices I thought made the sound better was (the now defunct) Atlas Balanced Mains Transformer and Isotek Super Titan.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It won’t bring any benefits at all, it will just be bias. Just wasting your money I can assure you. This is the device that will to lots of systems and a used one for £200 would be achievable. Also some older isotek devices on eBay like orions. But the differences will still be relatively small

http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/isotek-evo3-polaris-mains-conditioner-7124.aspx

 

[abacus]

There many threads on this, but it comes down to is the device/cable suitable for what you are powering, (Not overloaded etc.) if it is, then there will be no difference in the sound whether you spend £5 or £5000 (Anyone that says there is, is just conning you, as when you ask them to provide verifiable evidence, they cannot supply any, which means they are talking nonsense)



In the end it’s up to you, if you believe it makes a difference then stick with it, but do a double blind test first, as any differences you hear will then disappear. (In the Pro World they class the Hi-Fi Nuts that make these claims as a joke, and as their equipment makes even top end Hi-Fi look like a wind up gramophone they should know)



Have fun, but try listening to the music, not the system, also get out too live concerts once in a while to hear what it really should sound like.



QuestForThe13thNote will probably come out with his usual cut & paste comments (And he still hasn’t provided any verifiable evidence) but can safely be ignored as he is quite harmless.



Bill

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Yes agree, not a lot in it means not a lot in the sound. The more expensive current isol8 devices actually smooth the sound. I really liked what the minisub axis did to my cyrus stuff, made it a little smoother too. Isotek devices like the Aquarius made my system more dynamic but had a similar effect on smoothing the sound too. Both very similar sound effects with the isol 8 a bit better.

I agree it can’t be done cheaply and well which has got me wondering why for such simple electronics someone just doesn’t copy the isotek electronics and sells it with similar features which arent copyrighted. Maybe a hi Fi bod selling to other bods like us.

http://hifilounge.co.uk/isol-8-minisub-wave-axis

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/isotek-evo3-aquarius

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

There many threads on this, but it comes down to is the device/cable suitable for what you are powering, (Not overloaded etc.) if it is, then there will be no difference in the sound whether you spend £5 or £5000 (Anyone that says there is, is just conning you, as when you ask them to provide verifiable evidence, they cannot supply any, which means they are talking nonsense)

In the end it’s up to you, if you believe it makes a difference then stick with it, but do a double blind test first, as any differences you hear will then disappear. (In the Pro World they class the Hi-Fi Nuts that make these claims as a joke, and as their equipment makes even top end Hi-Fi look like a wind up gramophone they should know)

Have fun, but try listening to the music, not the system, also get out too live concerts once in a while to hear what it really should sound like.

QuestForThe13thNote will probably come out with his usual cut & paste comments (And he still hasn’t provided any verifiable evidence) but can safely be ignored as he is quite harmless.

Bill

it Comes down to kit that can reveal it and if it doesn’t it’s conceivable it will make a good difference on something different, so yes making your own mind up is relative to your own experience with the system you have. And yes other experiences are based on what they have, so look into that as is deemed necessary to form your own views. As if a system doesn’t benefit a device where another does, it’s easy to see people’s rationale. So I wouldn’t ignore anyone to the extent of forming own views.

 

[CnoEvil]

Is it this that you are referring to? https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-power-hub

Negative, it’s this one https://www.cleareraudio.com/products/copper-line-alpha-power-hub

with the “Hyperion Filter System” *smile*

So it sounds like the thing could bring some actual benefits as long as I’m mistaken about it spoiling the sound...

Some robust discussion on this thread...including the "squashing" of dynamics: https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/mains-blocks-conditioners-regenerators

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I found the isol 8 didn’t do that squashing in my set up but the problem is so well reported that it obviously does happen in some systems and with some conditioners. It’s often worth trying power amps off the mains consequently.

 

[grimharry]

If you are putting the mains through a transformer what possible difference would it make if it’s wash conditioned and blown dry.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

But I don’t take one bottle into the shower, it’s better doing it for what they do best ie a conditioner and then shampoo. Sorry its beginning to sound like that advert. Wash and go, remember that one....

 

[TempWhatHifiName121]

I bought one of these, they are cheap and offer mains protection at a minimum, and found the same. My Nad d3020 sounded worse - like the speakers had been put in a box. Sounded awful. But on my Arcam they opened up the soundstage and added detail. Both were very distinct changes, which amazed me. Surprised that the electronics would respond in such a way.

 

[Native_bon]

I aslo tried the Isol 8minisub in my system and made it sound worse off. My system sounded brighter & thinner. After two weeks or so had to send it back. *nea*

 

[britain4]

If you are putting the mains through a transformer what possible difference would it make if it’s wash conditioned and blown dry.

A transformer and then 2 big smoothing caps...

Honestly I’m really not convinced either way on this whole thing yet. I’d like to hear the effects a regenerator or top end conditioner would have first. I don’t know what circuitry’s in my Clearer Audio but I may crack it open for a look - something tells me it’s not so far departed from a Tacima but with a fancy gold cable.

I had a look at that thread a while ago but it seemed like pages and pages of only arguing so I’ll have a closer read!