Alternative to Graham Slee Novo?

[Paulq]

I've been using the above for a couple of years and whilst it's very capable I find it to render a lot of the music I listen to overly bright. I tend to listen to rock/prog and when using Denon AH-D7000 and B&W P7 the treble becomes overly harsh, not something I experience with the same headphones when using them through MacBook Pro with Meridian Explorer.

Has anyone recommendations for a slightly warmer, bass friendly headphone amp?

Thanks in advance.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100000759563588]

I just wondered what the source is please? If you have tone controls, a simple EQ might save you some money? If not, then a warm tube amp will open up more possibilities to roll and fine tune the sound.

 

[Paulq]

Source is a Linn Majik DSM/Majik 2100 Power Amp. Love the sound through the speakers, not so through the Novo/headphones.

Thanks for replying.

 

[dalethorn]

You're probably getting a compounded effect with the headphones - first, the headphones don't soften the sound like speakers do in a listening room, and second, those headphones have an uneven treble that exaggerate problems unpredictably. The Sennheiser Momentum should be a much better choice.

 

[Paulq]

Are There not amps that will mitigate that surely? The Novo appears to have a reputation for accentuating the top end so maybe there are amps which don't?

For some reason 've never been a fan of Sennheiser but in fairness have never heard the Momentums.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100000759563588]

....however, I think the headphone accounts for 90% of the sound. I think Beyerdynamic DT990s or Audio-Technica ATH-M50 may soften the treble a little. *secret*

 

[dalethorn]

....however, I think the headphone accounts for 90% of the sound. I think Beyerdynamic DT990s or Audio-Technica ATH-M50 may soften the treble a little. *secret*

Both DT990 and M50 have peaky treble.

 

[JoelSim]

You could have a look at the Beyerdynamic A20, I rather like it myself.

 

[eggontoast]

....however, I think the headphone accounts for 90% of the sound. I think Beyerdynamic DT990s or Audio-Technica ATH-M50 may soften the treble a little. *secret*

Both DT990 and M50 have peaky treble.

As opposed to the Sennheiser Momentums which have rolled off treble & bass, they are a distinct backward step from the OP's current headphones.

OP you could also consider a Lehmann Rhinelander.

 

[Paulq]

As opposed to the Sennheiser Momentums which have rolled off treble & bass, they are a distinct backward step from the OP's current headphones.

OP you could also consider a Lehmann Rhinelander.

I'm no expert but that was my initial reaction too - if only on price point alone the D7K's I would consider far higher quality. However, again, I have not heard the Momentums so I can't comment with any degree of certainty.

The Lehmann is actually one I was looking at how would you describe it? I have also looked at the Burson HA-160 which seems to be of similar ilk.

 

[dalethorn]

As opposed to the Sennheiser Momentums which have rolled off treble & bass, they are a distinct backward step from the OP's current headphones.

OP you could also consider a Lehmann Rhinelander.

I'm no expert but that was my initial reaction too - if only on price point alone the D7K's I would consider far higher quality. However, again, I have not heard the Momentums so I can't comment with any degree of certainty.

The Momentum is a high quality headphone. It's true that the lower bass seems rolled off, but that's only because the upper bass is emphasized. The upper treble recess is now regarded as a "lifestyle" feature by most reviewers. But if you want a full non-peaky treble, the AKG K712 is very smooth.

 

[eggontoast]

The Momentum is a high quality headphone. It's true that the lower bass seems rolled off, but that's only because the upper bass is emphasized. The upper treble recess is now regarded as a "lifestyle" feature by most reviewers. But if you want a full non-peaky treble, the AKG K712 is very smooth.

I disagree, the Momentum is a fashion headphone for the MP3 listening traveller, definitely not 'Hi-Fi'. There is no comparison between them and what the OP has already, even the P7's he has are vastly superior sounding. With regards to the K712, it is indeed a nice sounding headphone however, they are ever so detailed and slightly lacking in bass, i found them even brighter than the HD600's. I can't see them helping the OP in an way, shape or form especially since he's not into EQing like you Dale.

With regards the Lehmann, it's what you would expect a fine sounding headphone amplifier which can easily drive your two low impedance headphones. It certainly made my D5000's sound nice. I can't give you a comparison against the Novo though, as I've never heard one. I no longer have the Lehmann since building my own H/P amplifier as mine is obviously far superior *biggrin*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100000759563588]

.......is right I think having heard them. *music2*

 

[dalethorn]

The Momentum is a high quality headphone. It's true that the lower bass seems rolled off, but that's only because the upper bass is emphasized. The upper treble recess is now regarded as a "lifestyle" feature by most reviewers. But if you want a full non-peaky treble, the AKG K712 is very smooth.

I disagree, the Momentum is a fashion headphone for the MP3 listening traveller, definitely not 'Hi-Fi'. There is no comparison between them and what the OP has already, even the P7's he has are vastly superior sounding. With regards to the K712, it is indeed a nice sounding headphone however, they are ever so detailed and slightly lacking in bass, i found them even brighter than the HD600's. I can't see them helping the OP in an way, shape or form especially since he's not into EQing like you Dale.

With regards the Lehmann, it's what you would expect a fine sounding headphone amplifier which can easily drive your two low impedance headphones. It certainly made my D5000's sound nice. I can't give you a comparison against the Novo though, as I've never heard one. I no longer have the Lehmann since building my own H/P amplifier as mine is obviously far superior *biggrin*

What I said about the Momentum isn't in disagreement with your contentions. I said they are high quality, which they are physically, and despite the rolloff the overall sound fits the 'lifestyle' design perfectly. I don't like it, but a lot of people do. You can say that people "just won't EQ like you Dale", but that is their choice, not yours. The K712 may seem bright, but not because it is (the K812 is bright, the Beyer T1, T90 etc. are bright, the Shure 940 is bright, ....) - it's because the K712 bass is lean. A moderate bass boost isn't an EQ specialty BTW, it's been a feature of hi-fi systems for probably 60 years. I just like to recommend something the customer can grow with, that's not an unnecessary compromise, that's not especially colored. The B&W P7, in spite of my generally favorable review, is far more colored than the K712, particularly given the P7's steep and sudden recess around 8 khz and peak around 9 khz.

 

[dalethorn]

Are There not amps that will mitigate that surely? The Novo appears to have a reputation for accentuating the top end so maybe there are amps which don't?

For some reason 've never been a fan of Sennheiser but in fairness have never heard the Momentums.

Just a note about amps - unlike headphones, which have fairly large variances from flat or neutral, amps measure out as flat. If the amp, especially a high-quality amp like the Novo, seems bright, it's because of some combination of factors like impedance mismatch, and not an un-flat response per se. I don't say that to confuse anyone or to shift blame away from the amp, I mention it to discourage amp-hopping just to get a better match to mid-fi headphones. Valve amps (tubes in the U.S.) are something I really like, and they do wonders for headphones that are just a little too bright or rough-sounding. It's not magic though.

 

[eggontoast]

.......is right I think having heard them. *music2*

what exactly, the P7's, momentums, K712, D7000's all of them ?

You mention both the Beyerdynamic DT990s & Audio-Technica ATH-M50 for a softer treble response and yet neither have it, especially not the M50's which can border on sibilant.

 

[eggontoast]

You can say that people "just won't EQ like you Dale", but that is their choice, not yours.

What I actually said was "especially since he's not into EQing like you Dale", so not sure what you mean by this really. I was just pointing out the OP doesn't use EQ, we all know that you apply a healthy dose of EQ to help the performance of headphones but if you don't, which the OP doesn't, some can sound truly awful like the Momentums.

The K712 may seem bright, but not because it is (the K812 is bright, the Beyer T1, T90 etc. are bright, the Shure 940 is bright, ....) - it's because the K712 bass is lean.

It doesn't matter where the deficiency is, the overall presentation, without EQ, is bright sounding.

A moderate bass boost isn't an EQ specialty BTW, it's been a feature of hi-fi systems for probably 60 years.

Not sure of the relevance of this if you don't use EQ when listening to music.

I just like to recommend something the customer can grow with, that's not an unnecessary compromise, that's not especially colored.

Customer ?

The B&W P7, in spite of my generally favorable review, is far more colored than the K712, particularly given the P7's steep and sudden recess around 8 khz and peak around 9 khz.

Agreed it is coloured like most headphones, the K712 could be considered coloured due to the lack of bottom end. I think every headphone I've listened to could be considered coloured in some way.

 

[eggontoast]

Just a note about amps - unlike headphones, which have fairly large variances from flat or neutral, amps measure out as flat. If the amp, especially a high-quality amp like the Novo, seems bright, it's because of some combination of factors like impedance mismatch, and not an un-flat response per se. I don't say that to confuse anyone or to shift blame away from the amp, I mention it to discourage amp-hopping just to get a better match to mid-fi headphones.

Despite the oversimplification in the above, fundamentally I agree, the difference between good headphone amplifiers is pretty small. I wouldn't hope for a drastic change.

Valve amps (tubes in the U.S.) are something I really like, and they do wonders for headphones that are just a little too bright or rough-sounding. It's not magic though.

I don't agree with this statement either, valves don't sound warmer, I think people must feel warmer due to the heaters glowing away in front of them. Also he would have to avoid OTL amps due to the low impedance headphones he has, not a good combination.

 

[Paulq]

Am now confused. Here's a different question - does anyone know what the quality of the DAC and Headphone out is like on the Majik DSM? Am beginning to question whether I actually NEED a dedicated amp?

 

[eggontoast]

Am now confused. Here's a different question - does anyone know what the quality of the DAC and Headphone out is like on the Majik DSM? Am beginning to question whether I actually NEED a dedicated amp?

What are you confused about ?

Haven't heard the headphone output of the Linn. The technical specs show it as having an 11 ohm output impedance so this might tame the top end harshness your hearing.

 

[dalethorn]

What I actually said was "especially since he's not into EQing like you Dale", so not sure what you mean by this really. I was just pointing out the OP doesn't use EQ, we all know that you apply a healthy dose of EQ to help the performance of headphones but if you don't, which the OP doesn't, some can sound truly awful like the Momentums.

..................................

It doesn't matter where the deficiency is, the overall presentation, without EQ, is bright sounding.

...........................................

You keep referring to 'EQ' when it's just a common bass boost (in the K712 instance), which has been with hi-fi before any of us. You keep saying that "the OP doesn't use...." when I have very little doubt that he/she is aware of it, and considers it his/her right to use it when he/she decides to. When I clarified that the K712 was fine with the bass boost, it wasn't to argue presentations, it was to inform the readers here that they have the power to decide, and they don't have to feel that their choices are restricted, if they don't want those restrictions, based on new information. i.e., always give the customer a choice. I have had retail customers present me with restrictive scenarios that weren't practical or doable for some reason, and my answer in some of those cases is "yes, you can try this or that, but my advice up front is this..."

Edit: Valves actually do "round out" some harshness, due to their slower processing compared to solid state devices. This is very well covered in the tech literature.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100000759563588]

I think this thread has become personal. The OP still hasn't had his questions answered. I think eggonface has lost the plot for some reason. Time to lock. *crazy*

 

[dalethorn]

I think this thread has become personal. The OP still hasn't had his questions answered. I think eggonface has lost the plot for some reason. Time to lock. *crazy*

Personal or not, the customer (i.e. the 'OP') should come first. I hope he understands that searching for a new amp, when the Graham-Slee is already a fine amp, just to get a less-bright sound (when amps are inherently flat) is a prescription for trouble. There are too many users or sellers out there who will recommend an amp for reduced brightness, when in fact to reduce brightness by amp only you're really talking about selecting an impedance mismatch or other such thing that just happens to work. I would only ask that the customer understand that, or consider it as they do further research. I don't think the OP's question is answerable in a logical or straightforward way, unless the answer is the easy one, to get a valve amp.

 

[eggontoast]

I think this thread has become personal.

Why, because my opinion is different to Dales.

The OP still hasn't had his questions answered.

Like with most headphone related questions there is no definitive answer as there is a high degree of personal taste involved. It's a case of trial and error as no two people hear the same results with headphones.

I think eggonface has lost the plot for some reason. Time to lock. *crazy*

So you resort to name calling because you obviously haven't heard the cans in question or have nothing else to contribute apart from AT M50's and Beyer DT990's, which was err rubbish.

 

[Superaintit]

Am now confused. Here's a different question - does anyone know what the quality of the DAC and Headphone out is like on the Majik DSM? Am beginning to question whether I actually NEED a dedicated amp?

No need to be confused. You should try the headphone output on your linn dsm. Could be a surprise outcome. The what hifi review mentions its pretty good.

I'm actually quite curious myself as a linn ds is high on my list of new sources! I have a sennheiser hd650. To my ears its never strident, even a bit restraint in the highs, which can make it slightly 'dark' sounding. Paired with the Arcam A32 a disaster, with a musical fidelity amp and cyrus source musical heaven.