Add a Stereo Amp or Just Upgrade My AV Receiver?

[admin_exported]

I currently listen to music through my Denon AVR 2809. I have it hooked up to the new Denon DNP-720AE music streamer, feeding a 5.1 KEF XQ 30/50/10/ HTB2SE speaker set up. I use the amp in pure direct stereo mode and it's an acceptable, at times compelling listen, especially with 24 bit Flac file throught he excellent 720's on board dac.

The amp has got a lot of life left in it for home cinema duties, but I have owned better stereo systems that cost me a quarter the price - I yearn for a better stereo fix.

Should I consider an AVR upgrade, maybe the Denon AVR 4311, (which will also let me put the NP 720AE in the bedroom); or go for integrating a stereo amp and running it in power amp mode from the 2809's pre puts for surround sound and full on stand alone stereo mode for the serious business of listening to music? The Denon PMA-1510AE would do nicely.

AVR budget about £1,700, Stereo Amp Budget about £800.

 

[bigboss]

A dedicated stereo amplifier will outperform most AV receivers many times the price. I was part of the Big Question feature on What Hi Fi last year, where we compared the musical abilities of a stereo amplifier vs AV receivers at different price points.

I haven't heard the Arcam, but I've heard good things about its musical abilities. There were some issues about quality control, I think they've been sorted now. Someone else on the forum can confirm this.

There's a trade-in discount offer you can take advantage of:

http://www.whathifi.com/news/hot-deal-arcam-offers-avr400-christmas-trade-in-discount

 

[duaplex]

Arcam is very good and as Bigboss said they have that offer on. I would upgrade the AV. Adding a Stereo AMP would be good but you have to be prepared to fiddle with wires and settings when switching to your 5.1 system and vice versa. check out the whathifi video blog on how to do this.

My advice, get the AVR400 or even better get the LX85 which handle FLAC very well. You will hear a difference and it will be worth it, dont feel that you will be let down either.

 

[CnoEvil]

As has been stated, the AVR400 is a good choice where AV and 2 channel are both important. It also has pre-outs, which means that a better stereo amp can be added in the future, if necessary.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the thoughts.

It does seem that, if the right amp is chosen, an AV upgrade would be as effective if not better and more convenient.

Another consideration here though is music streaming capability. I currently do this through the new Denon Network player, which is very good. Anyone got any experience with file streaming on the Arcam? Could it reasonably be expected to provide reliable music playback, DAC duties and stereo? I am more interested in quality of audio playback than features, but Internet radio and DNLA connectivity with high res file support are a must.

All this is pointing to a visit to a dealer to check out the Arcam and the Pioneer, though I'd be sad to let go of my Denon loyalty - so I think the 4311 will be a good point to start comparing.

What issue did that Big Question feature appear in What Hi Fi last year?

Many thanks

 

[Xanderzdad]

I would have to disagree with a few of the comments here.

Adding a stereo amp will massively outperform even a seriously expensive AV amp.

Contrary to duaplex's comment - once the pre outs from your existing AV amp are plugged into the pre-in on a stereo amp then you have no work at all except to switch both amps on when listening to surround sound (see my bio and previous posts).

This simple set up ensures the front left and right are always powered by the superior stereo amp whilst your AV amp handles all the other speakers. Both amps operate as a team when listening to surround sound.

 

[rendu]

With this set up, is it still possible to use the subwoofer. This is a possibility I always thought about however, in my case like many people I have small fronts therefore would still need to use the subwoofer to complete the full frequency range. Thanks.

 

[DandyCobalt]

Link your fronts via-preouts to the stereo amp, and also link CD/BD player or streamer to both the stereo amp and the a/v receiver.

That way, you don't need to switch on your a/v amp at all when listening to stereo music.

Pick a stereo amp that has an av direct input (links to the preouts from the av receiver), and the a/v receiver will still be the volume controlling element when you're watching tv/films etc.

Simples.

 

[Anonymous]

My 2p.

Having done a lot of shuffling and moving around and replacing amps/AV etc. I don't agree with the consensus. I haven't noticed any drop in quality since swapping out my Arcam A80 (originally £600), for my £300 Yamaha RX V667. I don't believe there is anything like the value in stereo amps that there is in AV amps. You get far more all round for your money with the latter IMHO.

But if you are able to do a side by side test, using the pre-outs and try it yourself, it's what I used to do until I realised the absolute pointlessness of the excercise for me. I'm sure you could either find a dealer who will allow you to test it, or take in your AV amp and test that way.

I also found that using "straight" rather than "pure direct" allowed me to channel the bass at a selectable frequency away from the front 2 to the subwoofer...this increased the clarity and gave me a higher potential volume in the bargain.

 

[Xanderzdad]

With this set up, is it still possible to use the subwoofer. This is a possibility I always thought about however, in my case like many people I have small fronts therefore would still need to use the subwoofer to complete the full frequency range. Thanks.

Yes - it operates as a normal 5.1/7.1 system - just with the 2 main speakers utilising the quality of your stereo amp instead. You can't tell much difference when playing movies but for music it operates as a pure stereo system with the extra quality that brings.

I have my CD and music streamer plugged into the stereo amp with my Bluray and Sky into the AV amp. Best of both worlds.

 

[duaplex]

I would not go so far as to tell him that he will have no work to do, he will have to fiddle with settings for correct calibration when switching between the AMP and AV. He will be compromising his 5.1 too and here is the Video Blog I Refer to.

Of course it depends what you define as hassle

Video

http://www.whathifi.com/video/how-to-add-hi-fi-to-your-home-cinema

 

[Anonymous]

All, thanks for the advice, gentlepersonly conduct and the link to the really useful WHIFI video on this.

My Verdict?

As acceptable as the basic Arcam AVR400 and slicker Pioneer SCLX75 and Denon 3312 are for stereo, after recently auditioning these with a similar KEF set up to mine, I thought they were not worth an upgrade to achieve better stereo playback, whilst keeping everything in one box...yet.

Yes they sound better than my Denon 2809, though only Arcam appears to be taking the job of integrating stereo into an av amp properly serious.

Internet Radio Station 'Simply Electronica' came through brilliantly on all amps - amazing to think this was from a 128kbps MP3 stream. Antonio Fiorcione's 'Touch Wood' acoustic set (from a 24 bit Flac file) sounded fab on all systems too, especially the Arcam (my favourite from the outset to win me over). But when playing Kevin Yost's 'Straight Outa the Boon Dox' Albumn (from 16 bit FLAC) not particularly agile handling with drums and in the bass department was displayed. Moving to Radiohead's 'Tran's Atlantic Drawl' and things got as muddled as they are on my Denon. Getting these amps to negotate anything by Nirvana (and not everyone would I know) was equally disappointing. For me, The Arcam just doesn't have the boots for Rock. I didn't bother with Debussy's De l'aube midi sur la mer, as I wasn't prepared to allow any redemption of the Arcam at that point - and the Arcam was the best of these three amps in my view for stereo.

Solution...wait and see, and in the meantime probably pick up a nice stereo amp to add to my Denon set up for a couple of more years. I am sure a really good AVR that does proper stereo will come along. But I have been disappointed with NAD, Sony, Denon and now Arcam and Pioneer offerings to date.

From the advice here and the WHIFI vid it really doesn't seem like too much hassle to manage a hooked up stereo amp using my Denon's preouts and Harmony remote to get it flowing. Plus, the excellent Kef XQs should maintain cohesion - it's their strong point.

Anyone got a good, hardworking, biwirable stereo amp suggestion c. £750 that I could augment an otherwise perfectly acceptable Denon AV 2809, KEF XQ 30/50/10 set up with?

Cheers.

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone got a good, hardworking, biwirable stereo amp suggestion c. £750 that I could augment an otherwise perfectly acceptable Denon AV 2809, KEF XQ 30/50/10 set up with?

I don't know current UK prices, but I'd be looking at the Marantz PM7004 or KI Pearl (lite). They have a power amp mode, which means you can use them as a standalone stereo amp, or as power amp to your AV receiver. Or if you're only looking for a power amp, a good deal on the Arcam P38 or Rotel RB-1552 might do.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Marantz sounds like a good suggestion as they should blend with the Denon, being from the same stable.

Steve

 

[Native_bon]

Hum bigboss, what was the piont.. the only amp thats does 2 channel well, in this case the Arcam Av amp, was not included in the test?

 

[Anonymous]

I've an Arcam AVR500 connected to my Tannoy Revs - and best I've ever heard them for music

I a few years back (I had several sets of the Tannoys) - and one pair I used in a seperate room as a dedicated 2 channel rig - all sorts of combos from of amps up to £500 or so and CD players up to around £600 (Arcam CD93 was highest end I think) - and I don't recall any of the combos sounding as good as the Arcam AV amp being fed just standard FLACS via HDMI from my HTPC

very impressed indeed

 

[bigboss]

Hum bigboss, what was the piont.. the only amp thats does 2 channel well, in this case the Arcam Av amp, was not included in the test?

The Big Question topic was: do stereo amplifiers outperform AV receivers for music? We tested the Rotel RA-04SE against the Denon 1910, Denon 2310 & Sony STR-DA5400ES. The Rotel was clearly better than all of them, & effortless in performance. Arcam AV amps are optimised for music with better components. That was not the focus of the Big Question feature.

 

[Anonymous]

- RE: "I've an Arcam AVR500 connected to my Tannoy Revs - and best I've ever heard them for music."

These discontinued amps are now going for less than £1,200 compared to the £1,400 trade in on the AVR 400. But without Ethernet, Internet radio, HDMI 1.4 and punter's luck on reliability I'd be very afraid to taste that particular fruit, as both sweet and bitter as many have said it is.

Even with upgrades available and a 5 year warranty on the AVR500, The AVR 600 only seems to fit my 'no compromise on quality and get it into one box' requirement, but that kind of money at this time of year aint happening.

My final, final shot at this before just giving in and buying a stereo amp is to consider Pioneer's LX85! I heard the LX75 which blew me away for home cinema, stereo was alright, not outstanding. Anyone had the pleasure with the LX85 yet? It looks all but the same except in name as the 75 to me.

 

[Anonymous]

yeah - my ex-dem 500 - with the 5 yr warranty was £999 - which is a bargain in my eyes

reliability wise - its had to go in for the "cooling mods" - but after that it should be pretty stable and no better/worse than an AVR600 - internally they look practically identical - just a bit less power and few less features (all of which I don't need)

certainly well worth the price difference 999 vs an ex-dem 600 at around 2600 !!

thing is - yes - a bit quirky - yes possibly a few reliability issues (luck of draw) - but to me that was worth it for the SQ - the other amps even for movies - that I demoed were nowhere near -and this 500 is the first av amp I've heard that sounded better than my AX10Ai.

if I had £3500 spare I'd perhaps go another route - but I don't - and I like my SQ

re HDMI 1.4 - well you can always pay for the upgraded HDMI board -OR just use a Bluray player or HTPC with dual video outs - and just go direct to the TV - thats what I'm doing

btw if you've not had a home demo of an Arcam - or other equivalent high-end AV amp - its well worth a try - just be warned once you try you won't be satisfied with anything less - the difference is stark

- RE: "I've an Arcam AVR500 connected to my Tannoy Revs - and best I've ever heard them for music."

These discontinued amps are now going for less than £1,200 compared to the £1,400 trade in on the AVR 400. But without Ethernet, Internet radio, HDMI 1.4 and punter's luck on reliability I'd be very afraid to taste that particular fruit, as both sweet and bitter as many have said it is.

Even with upgrades available and a 5 year warranty on the AVR500, The AVR 600 only seems to fit my 'no compromise on quality and get it into one box' requirement, but that kind of money at this time of year aint happening.

My final, final shot at this before just giving in and buying a stereo amp is to consider Pioneer's LX85! I heard the LX75 which blew me away for home cinema, stereo was alright, not outstanding. Anyone had the pleasure with the LX85 yet? It looks all but the same except in name as the 75 to me.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm following this thread with interest, as I'm thinking of adding in a Marantz PM7004 (with direct amp mode), a pair of Kef R100's and using my existing T301's as front height in a 7.1 configuration, to give me better stereo performance as I'm listening to more and more music and less movies. Any thoughts ?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Stephen,

Sorry to hijack you thread a little but I am exceedingly curious about the Denon DNP-720AE. I have been looking for something like this for quite some time and have a couple of questions which the technical spec and manual don't answer.

* Is there a delay between each track when streaming WAV audio from a NAS to the DNP-720AE? I demo'd the Cambridge Audio NP30 and there was a significant delay due to buffering between each WAV track. This only happened for WAV and was probably due the WAV file size. On MP3 streaming there was no such problem. I would have expected a network media player to do some pre-buffering beforehand to overcome this.

* I can see that Denon has something similar to the Cambridge Audio Uuvol internet streaming service called www.radiodenon.com. I really wanted to be able to configure the DNP-720AE with the HTTP streams directly without having to rely on some Denon site. It seems that this is impossible, but nowhere are the actual stations available listed. Are the following available on www.radiodenon.com:

Psychedelik.com @192 Kb/s

Smoothjazz.com.pl @192 Kb/s

Sense FM @192 Kb/s

Thanks for any help!

KnightAzul

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Knight.

Re. the Denon 720 - Playback is instantaneous between tracks including WAVs. Note however I use an ethernet connection, but the 720AE's wifi connection is also really good and handled files from my NAS the same in wi fi mode.

Just checked your fave stations on Radio Denon - only Sense FM is listed. This is an annoyance for me as well as I'd like to hook into the http:// stream to access some of my fave independent stations - Deep Mix Mpscow (deepmix.ru ) is sorely missed. I am looking at alternate ways of getting at these stations into the Denon.

The Denon makes sense if you already own Denon Kit or non streaming enabled amplification. It's got a great DAC onboard and for me competes with my Logitech Duet/ARCAM RDAC Combo.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for the info. Great to hear about the WAV playing without interruption.

I don't understand why Denon and Cambridge Audio force you to use their sites to access the internet radio stations. Perhaps they might want to charge for this service some day a la Apple style or something.

If a station is available today and you set it as a preset on the 720AE and then tomorrow Denon decides to take that station away for whatever reason, would that mean that you could no longer access it from the 720AE? Not sure if the Denon site is just used to download the station HTTP configuration to the player, or if the player calls the Denon site to access the station details.

>I am looking at alternate ways of getting at these stations into the Denon

Let me know how you get on!

>The Denon makes sense if you already own Denon Kit or non streaming enabled amplification.

I have a Denon amp and CD player. The 720AE is the perfect addition

KnightAzul

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Knight,

Cracked it - Just stream from iTunes!

If you have a computer, iPhone or iPad and wifi, it will sniff out the Denon then tell it to stop whatever it is doing and play what you send it. And it works brilliantly for web radio quality streaming. You can also search for and connect to any radio stream via http:// in iTunes and save it as a playlist item, then play it to your Denon.

I don't think Denon are in the game of content in the same way as Apple. Radio Denon is just a reliable way of hooking up their products to the vTuner service and repackaging as Radio Denon. It adds a bit of value, but restricts things somehwat. That was an advantage of the Squeezebox Duet - which I woud recommend you also consider. However the connectivity schisms and managing Squeezebox Server is a real hassle, and I am a full on computer music nerd.

Also, if you send Sam at AV Land an email to make him an offer he may entertain a decent price. I got mine for £395.

All in all, I think a mid range Denon stereo amp as an add on to my Home theatre is the best way to go here. That way it can be broken up into a straight stereo system when, finally, an AVR that does equivalent stereo performance with internet streaming etc for under 1.8k comes along.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Stephen,

Glad to hear that you found the solution! Unfortunately Apple and iTunes doesn't work for me as I don't use them. I had a look at the Squeezebox Duet and Logitech doesn't do it for me as high quality HiFi equipment (with Logitech I just keep thinking of a computer mouse!).

The Denon is what I really want. Just not 100% convinced about the internet radio side. I noticed that also alot of the quality streams on shoutcast.com of 320Kb/s are not available if I go directly to the vTuner site: http://vtuner.com/setupapp/guide/asp/BrowseStations/startpage.asp . This probably for the vTuner guys to save on bandwidth if the stream has to pass through their servers. However, with a quality piece of equipment like the Denon streams of 192 Kb/s or greater are probably what most people would look for.

If only there was some non-iTunes way to get the HTTP stream config onto the Denon then they would have my hard earned in an instant!

It looks like the remote is not a multi-function which will work with my Denon amp and CD player (in the same way as the CD player remote can control the amp). Minor gripe.

KnightAzul