Active hifi speakers or active studio monitors?

[John Duncan]

Well we might be starting that from the other end - I'm just finishing up our new budget range (imaginatively titled "1-Series") which are looking and sounding very good indeed, even if I do say so myself!

I've set things in motion for the standmounts to have an active version somewhere down the line, probably would retail at £500-£600, possibly followed by the floorstanders at just under £1000...

The active floorstanders in particular would be interesting as there simply aren't many around at any price, let alone at the budget/mid level. I still need to figure out the best connectivity options, do we keep it simple like the AE22's and let people choose their own pre-amp/dacs or try to put it all onboard with umbilical connector between the speakers? :? The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

I think I'd probably be OK with single inputs if it kept the cost down - most people will just plug a Sonos or similar in the back, which will give them remote volume. My StreamMagic has a preamp mode which would do the same job (and also has balanced outputs, hint hint...).

You could stick a little cubby hole in the floorstanders to hold a Sonos, and give it an AC out to power it... :-o

 

[BigH]

Well we might be starting that from the other end - I'm just finishing up our new budget range (imaginatively titled "1-Series") which are looking and sounding very good indeed, even if I do say so myself!

I've set things in motion for the standmounts to have an active version somewhere down the line, probably would retail at £500-£600, possibly followed by the floorstanders at just under £1000...

The active floorstanders in particular would be interesting as there simply aren't many around at any price, let alone at the budget/mid level. I still need to figure out the best connectivity options, do we keep it simple like the AE22's and let people choose their own pre-amp/dacs or try to put it all onboard with umbilical connector between the speakers? :? The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

I think I'd probably be OK with single inputs if it kept the cost down - most people will just plug a Sonos or similar in the back, which will give them remote volume. My StreamMagic has a preamp mode which would do the same job (and also has balanced outputs, hint hint...).

You could stick a little cubby hole in the floorstanders to hold a Sonos, and give it an AC out to power it... :-o

Single input would not be enough for me, I have 2 digital and 1 RCA (2 inputs) at the moment that is just about enough, for cdp, rca from computer (changing to toslink soon) and TV/dvd, I may add a TT.

 

[ReValveiT]

I'm happy with my HiFi.

 

[daveh75]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

 

[steve_1979]

Well we might be starting that from the other end - I'm just finishing up our new budget range (imaginatively titled "1-Series") which are looking and sounding very good indeed, even if I do say so myself!

I've set things in motion for the standmounts to have an active version somewhere down the line, probably would retail at £500-£600, possibly followed by the floorstanders at just under £1000...

The active floorstanders in particular would be interesting as there simply aren't many around at any price, let alone at the budget/mid level. I still need to figure out the best connectivity options, do we keep it simple like the AE22's and let people choose their own pre-amp/dacs or try to put it all onboard with umbilical connector between the speakers? :? The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

That sounds interesting. Good luck with those.

I haven't heard your most recent speakers but all of the Acoustic Energy bookshelf speakers that I've heard in the past have been good so I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for these.

For the inputs I think that the AVI solution of a built-in DAC and pre-amp is ideal with the option of being able to use either a digital or analog input. Having said that I expect there's a market for good quality regular active speakers that need a separate pre-amp. There are so many DACs and pre-amps available nowerdays that it shouldn't be a problem. Apparently even the analogue output from modern TVs are good enough to be used as a credible HiFi source and can also be used to control the volume.

 

[davedotco]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

Easy peasy.

Almost any studio monitor will do the job, just pick a decent dac/ preamp that has the facilities and the performance that you need.

The only thing that requires a little thought is how you control the volume, I prefer to avoid digital volume controls if at all possible.

 

[daveh75]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

Easy peasy.

Almost any studio monitor will do the job, just pick a decent dac/ preamp that has the facilities and the performance that you need.

Which was the point I was making.

 

[BigH]

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

How many do you want?

 

[davedotco]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

Easy peasy.

Almost any studio monitor will do the job, just pick a decent dac/ preamp that has the facilities and the performance that you need.

Which was the point I was making.

Sorry, so you were, my mistake.

Some very nice equipment in your sig, be interesting to know how you get on with the Mackies, I thought they were a bit of a beast for home use.

 

[John Duncan]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

Easy peasy.

Almost any studio monitor will do the job, just pick a decent dac/ preamp that has the facilities and the performance that you need.

Which was the point I was making.

Completely OT, but how is that Sonos/Seiwin combo?

 

[davedotco]

My desktop system is currently my main system as I am living away from home.

I use a cheap Fiio dac with a pair of Studiospares Seiwin SN4a. This is a tiny speaker with a 4 inch bass driver, so no real bass whatsoever, but with a gentler boost in the mid bass it sounds ok at modest levels.

Given tht it cost under £100 (I got 10% off) it makes an excellent desktop system. Probably fine on a shelf in a bedroom or kitchen too, great value for money as they are reasonably portable and can be driven by an iPod.

Even given their limitations I preferred them to a pair of Diamond 9s and budget amp I tried at Richer Sounds at the time of purchase.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

The simple line-level in is of course easier for us but I'm not sure it would be as readily accepted as a full-blown solution which you can connect directly to a source for the home market.

A line level input is what I want in an active.

The few models that have DAC/pre all suck by offering to few or the wrong connections.

So i'd rather save on costs of not intergrating a DAC/pre into the monitor, and put that towards a separate that does have the connections I need/want

Easy peasy.

Almost any studio monitor will do the job, just pick a decent dac/ preamp that has the facilities and the performance that you need.

The only thing that requires a little thought is how you control the volume, I prefer to avoid digital volume controls if at all possible.

Hi davedotco,

What do you mean by digital volume control? I am considering some active speakers and intend to control it via an iphone with airplay adjusting the volume using that rather than on the actives.

Is there potential for damage?

Thanks

 

[chebby]

I am considering some active speakers and intend to control it via an iphone with airplay adjusting the volume using that rather than on the actives.

Is there potential for damage?

No there isn't.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Thanks chebby

So what is a good reason for avoiding digital volume control?

 

[davedotco]

I am considering some active speakers and intend to control it via an iphone with airplay adjusting the volume using that rather than on the actives.

Is there potential for damage?

No there isn't.

Digital volume controls lose bits so that the output is no longer bit perfect.

Chebby is right, given that the processor is 24 or even 32 bits this should be of no consequence whatsoever.

In a decent system I would avoid adjusting the level in this way because, irrational though it is, it would bother me. This mean I am a bit obsessive, but at least I know that and can deal with it.

That said, the system I am currently using is similar to the one you are proposing. I stream from a ipad via an AEX to my active Seiwins. I set the level on the iPad player to maximum, then set the speaker level control to normal (loud) listening level, then use the iPad volume only to attenuate to background levels.

As you can see, I can be obsessive and perhaps a little bit potty, but I can live with it.

 

[john dolan]

My M-dac has inbuilt digital volume and it sounds very good hooked up direct to my mono blocks but i run the M-dac full gain through a AS passion pasive preamp because it sounds better that way because it gets full resolution of the music.

 

[davedotco]

My M-dac has inbuilt digital volume and it sounds very good hooked up direct to my mono blocks but i run the M-dac full gain through a AS passion pasive preamp because it sounds better that way because it gets full resolution of the music.

The M-Dac has a 32 bit processor, which if properly implemented allows you to 'throw away' 16 bits before impacting the resolution of a CD standard data stream.

This is a volume reduction of 96db, the music would be effectively inaudible at this level so any difference you are hearing is being caused by something else, most probably the 'buffering' effects of your preamp.

 

[john dolan]

My preamp is passive and uses input direct which bypasses the selector switch.

I told JW the designer of the m-dac this is how i use it and he agreed with me.

JW will be launching his own brand soon and the amp he has designed to be fed direct by the m-dac will auto adjust its sensitivity so that the m-dac is always playing at full resolution.

Go ask the M-dac designer if you dont believe me.

My pre

http://www.audiosynthesis.co.uk/passion.htm

 

[davedotco]

My preamp is passive and uses input direct which bypasses the selector switch.

I told JW the designer of the m-dac this is how i use it and he agreed with me.

JW will be launching his own brand soon and the amp he has designed to be fed direct by the m-dac will auto adjust its sensitivity so that the m-dac is always playing at full resolution.

Go ask the M-dac designer if you dont believe me.

My pre

http://www.audiosynthesis.co.uk/passion.htm

No need to get so defensive, the Passion is a fine device but like all passive preamps it will alter the transfer characteristics from the dac to the power amplifier. Audio Synthesis are well aware of this which is why, in the link you provided, they offers guidance as to the impedance matching of the other components.

I have no idea what is going on in your system but if the differences you are hearing are real it is unlikely to be the loss in resolution caused by the digital volume control, 40 db attenuation represents a reduction of resolution from 32 to 25 bits, hardly significant given that the actual resolution of the M-dac is unlikely to more than 17-18 bits.

 

[john dolan]

Have you got a M-dac and passion and tried for yourself.

JW the designer of the M-dac understands and agrees with me and is building his new power amp to adjust its sensitivity as the volume on the m-dac is turned up and down so that the M-dac is always running full resolution.

I can hear the difference so can JW.

If you read the M-dac thread over on PFM JW helps and updates M-dacs he also makes or tells them how to make inline attenuators so guys can use higher volume settings on the M-dac because it sounds better that way.

The sound going through my passive only passes through 2 resistors same as using attenuators.

 

[Overdose]

Have you got a M-dac and passion and tried for yourself.

JW the designer of the M-dac understands and agrees with me and is building his new power amp to adjust its sensitivity as the volume on the m-dac is turned up and down so that the M-dac is always running full resolution.

I can hear the difference so can JW.

If you read the M-dac thread over on PFM JW helps and updates M-dacs he also makes or tells them how to make inline attenuators so guys can use higher volume settings on the M-dac because it sounds better that way.

The sound going through my passive only passes through 2 resistors same as using attenuators.

You make it sound like the retail product isn't properly finished.

 

[john dolan]

Its the way digital volume controls work they throw away resolution at low volume.

 

[davedotco]

Have you got a M-dac and passion and tried for yourself.

JW the designer of the M-dac understands and agrees with me and is building his new power amp to adjust its sensitivity as the volume on the m-dac is turned up and down so that the M-dac is always running full resolution.

I can hear the difference so can JW.

If you read the M-dac thread over on PFM JW helps and updates M-dacs he also makes or tells them how to make inline attenuators so guys can use higher volume settings on the M-dac because it sounds better that way.

The sound going through my passive only passes through 2 resistors same as using attenuators.

You make multiple changes to a system, introducing an extra component, changing the impedance of the interface, use the amplifier in a different part of it's operating range and find that you can hear differences to the way it sounds.

That is hardly surprising, what is surprising is that you can identify the use of the digital volume control as the only cause of these changes.

Interesting.

 

[john dolan]

Interesting how you know how my system works and sounds without hearing it.

Interesting you know more than JW the designer of the M-dac.

My mono blocks are 150 watts and only need 413mV for full power and my speakers are 90db and i dont play loud so when run direct the volume on the m-dac is turned way down low so outputs lower resolution.

Run it through a transparent passive like the Passion at its full volume the M-dac plays at its highest resolution.

Have you tried it yourselve before you post on here that im wrong ?

Ive run the m-dac direct into 3 different power amps and run it direct into the Passion into my TVC passive into my Tom Even active preamp and into my Glasshouse preamp same result the m-dac sounds better running full output into a preamp.

 

[davedotco]

Interesting how you know how my system works and sounds without hearing it.

Interesting you know more than JW the designer of the M-dac.

My mono blocks are 150 watts and only need 413mV for full power and my speakers are 90db and i dont play loud so when run direct the volume on the m-dac is turned way down low so outputs lower resolution.

Run it through a transparent passive like the Passion at its full volume the M-dac plays at its highest resolution.

Have you tried it yourselve before you post on here that im wrong ?

Ive run the m-dac direct into 3 different power amps and run it direct into the Passion into my TVC passive into my Tom Even active preamp and into my Glasshouse preamp same result the m-dac sounds better running full output into a preamp.

As I have said before I have no reason to doubt what you say and I have never suggested that you are wrong.

I have simply pointed out that a properly implemented digital volume control operating within the context of a 32bit processor should not be audible.

If you are hearing a clear difference then most likely it is caused by something else. I was simply suggesting what the causes of this difference might be by applying some simple scientific logic to the issue.