1080p query

[admin_exported]

I have just bought a Panasonic TH-37PX70 and Panasonic DMR-EZ27 dvd recorder, the dvd recorder can upscale to 720p, 1080i and 1080p, the tv can accept 1080p but as its not full HD it only scales 720p (i guess)

Reading up on interlace and progressive, progressive seems the better option but could someone tell me which is the best setting to have the dvd recorder on and is there any noticeable difference between 720p and 1080i or 1080p

 

[Anonymous]

720p will almost certainly give you the best picture, as there will be little/no downsampling required by the panel (1024x720).

1080i and 1080p are absolutely pointless on a sub 50" screen anyway imo. You would need to be sat about 2' away to discern any difference (another great marketing scam the tv manufacturers and large chain stores "neglect" to mention)

 

[Anonymous]

thats true but i assure you my 37 PX70 on blu-ray looks magnificent due to the great on board processor, it accepts the 1080p signal and magnificantly displays it on the screen, for TV i always use my V+ box on 720p and it upscales perfectly, except on the well know UK dodgy channels. If using a blu ray player set it on 1080p no judder also when i have my PS3 set up to force 24 fps it displays it great no judder, honest i can see why the team rated this set 5 stars, it easily IMHO outclasses any LCD, even now!

 

[Anonymous]

1080i and 1080p are absolutely pointless on a sub 50" screen anyway
imo. You would need to be sat about 2' away to discern any difference
(another great marketing scam the tv manufacturers and large chain
stores "neglect" to mention)

Are you saying that if I buy a 50" and sit 3m away I dont need 1080p? I need help with this point.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="PhilEarley"]
I have just bought a Panasonic TH-37PX70 and Panasonic DMR-EZ27 dvd recorder, the dvd recorder can upscale to 720p, 1080i and 1080p, the tv can accept 1080p but as its not full HD it only scales 720p (i guess)

Reading up on interlace and progressive, progressive seems the better option but could someone tell me which is the best setting to have the dvd recorder on and is there any noticeable difference between 720p and 1080i or 1080p

[/quote]

Hello Phil. In your particular situation, I would recommend that you have your dvd recorder set to output at 1080p. This is because inside your excellent tv, Panasonic have created something which they call a '1080p Digital Re-Mastering Processor'. This obviously does a good job, as we can see the results in the superb picture quality that the tv has, so I haven't got any plans to question any of the set's methods. One of the things the processor does is upscale all incoming signals, either from an external source or one of the set's two onboard tuners, up to 1080p (1920 x 1080), only to then perform a (simple) downscaling of the signal to the set's native resolution of 1024 x 768. So basically everything gets upscaled to 1080p and then back down again. This might seem pointless and odd, but who are we to question the set's ways of working when it produces such good results?

Anyway, the reason why this is all relevant to you is because, if you have your dvd recorder set to output 720p then your tv will then upscale to 1080p and then downscale again - basically doing unnecessary work. This is why in your case you should have your dvd recorder set to output 1080p because with your particular tv, this will actually be the option that involves the least scaling, odd as it may be.

I hope I've helped in some way.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that Ben, do you know much about 24fps, it says on the forum that the tv can handle it but panasonic don't say about it in any of their paperwork, if it can handle 24fps does the tv have to setting for it or is it a standard feature

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, officially your tv is not listed as being compatible with 24fps. However it does accept feeds at 24fps, and then display them superbly, without judder or stuttering. So, basically your tv for all intents and purposes is compatible with 24fps. Technically speaking though, your tv does not offer 'native' 24fps playback.

This is because it converts 24fps (or 24Hz) material to 60Hz, and as 60Hz is not a multiple of 24, some frames are shown (repeated) more than others in order to get round the problem. This is as opposed to if the tv was to playback 24fps (24Hz) content at 48Hz or 72Hz, in which each and every frame would be shown an equal number of times ie. when 24fps content is shown at 48Hz, each frame is repeated once - so 24 becomes 48. When 24fps content is shown at 72Hz, each frame is shown 3 times - so 24 becomes 72. Basically, for every second, your tv will take the 24 frames and display them in a pattern something like this: frame 1, frame 1, frame 1, frame 2, frame 2, frame 3, frame 3, frame 3, frame 4, frame 4, frame 5, frame 5, frame 5 - to convert 24 frames into 60 frames.

This is quite a complex procedure for any tv or other device to do in real-time, and can cause the horrid 'judder' effect which people hate. This is often the case. Most of the Blu-ray or HD-DVD players on the market can output at films' correct speed of 24fps, however, they can also do a frame-rate frame conversion in order to suit some tvs which, unlike your (excellent) Panasonic, will not accept 24fps. Anyway, these Blu-ray / HD-DVD players demonstrate what a difficult job it is to convert 24fps material to 60Hz, because the results can be quite poor! One particularly bad example of this is the Panasonic (funnily enough) DMPBD10 Blu-ray player which introduces that dreaded judder to motion, making any movement seem horribly stuttered.

So, we have established that converting 24fps material to 60Hz is an extremely hard thing for any device to do, especially in real-time. This is what makes the Panasonic tvs all the more impressive, because they do just that - they convert incoming 24fps content to 60Hz and then display the results... and the results are absolutely superb! The tv manages to render moving images with no judder at all. In fact, everyone at What Hi-Fi was convinced that the Panasonic's where showing 24fps content 'natively' such was the extent of just how good the tv's motion handling was! It was only when Panasonic sent an email to someone who had enquired, in which they said that the tvs where carrying out a conversion from 24fps to 60Hz, that people knew otherwise.

So, like I said earlier on, for all intents and purposes, your tv is completely compatible with 24fps material, as your tv will accept such material, and display it extremely well. The exact manner of how the tv deals with the feed is irrelevant. All you really need to know is that the tv is perfectly capable of handling 24fps from Blu-ray or HD-DVD or anywhere else. Oh yeah, just to finish answering your question, you do not need to select '24fps' from any menu on the tv, it will automatically do whatever it needs to in order to display such material as soon as such a signal is input and the corresponding input is selected. However, you may need to select 24fps to be output by the source you are using, such as a Blu-ray player. I hope I have helped without being to confusing.

 

[david_tring]

Benjamin - any thoughts on another Panasonic model, my TX32LDX700? This is also a 1366 x 768-lines panel TV, but the Instruction Manual confusingly says it can display (their word not mine) up to 1080p.

One source I've just read says that although a DVD is native 480i NTSC or 576i PAL, if its content is "film" then that video would have been down-converted to Interlaced format before being recorded onto the DVD and a DVD player will normally up-convert to a Progressive format output (the implication being that this restores the film to its original quality).

This is, I guess, why my Denon 2930 DVD player defaults to 480p/576p HDMI output.

Given that the ideal will be the minium amount of scaling and converting between source disc and display screen:-

1/ Should the player be set to genuinely "native" 576i output and upscaled only as far as 720i in the amp?

2/ But if the player's output is actually "better" in 576p, presumably 720p is the most that should be input to the Panansonic?

3/ However, lots of contributors on these forums say that Panasonic sets handle 1080i/p inputs very well even though they can't actually display that resolution - so am I actually better to let the amp upscale to a 1080i (or even a 1080p) signal and let the Panasonic make the most of it?

Help....!

n

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="david_tring"]
Benjamin - any thoughts on another Panasonic model, my TX32LDX700? This is also a 1366 x 768-lines panel TV, but the Instruction Manual confusingly says it can display (their word not mine) up to 1080p.

One source I've just read says that although a DVD is native 480i NTSC or 576i PAL, if its content is "film" then that video would have been down-converted to Interlaced format before being recorded onto the DVD and a DVD player will normally up-convert to a Progressive format output (the implication being that this restores the film to its original quality).

This is, I guess, why my Denon 2930 DVD player defaults to 480p/576p HDMI output.

Given that the ideal will be the minium amount of scaling and converting between source disc and display screen:-

1/ Should the player be set to genuinely "native" 576i output and upscaled only as far as 720i in the amp?

2/ But if the player's output is actually "better" in 576p, presumably 720p is the most that should be input to the Panansonic?

3/ However, lots of contributors on these forums say that Panasonic sets handle 1080i/p inputs very well even though they can't actually display that resolution - so am I actually better to let the amp upscale to a 1080i (or even a 1080p) signal and let the Panasonic make the most of it?

Help....!

[/quote]

Alright David, I'll start by clarifying the whole interlaced / progressive dvd thing. I'll assume you know the difference between interlaced and progressive. Just to remind you, interlaced means that the picture is shown in two parts - first every odd line is scanned, then every even line. Progressive means the entire picture is scanned as a whole.

When films are, er... filmed they are, by nature progressive. However CRT tvs are, by nature interlaced. This is why when films were transferred onto dvd (and vhs), they also had to be converted into the interlaced format - so they could be shown on the CRT televisions that everyone had when dvd first came out. This is why dvds are mastered at 480i or 576i. However, over the last few years, with the introduction of plasma and lcd tvs which are progressive by nature, dvd players have started having the option of de-interlacing and outputting a progressive signal via component or HDMI. This means the picture is being restored in some way back to how it was originally. The more expensive the dvd player (or tv, which have to have de-interlacing of their own) the better quality of the de-interlacing. So dvd's native formats (the resolution that all dvds are mastered) of 480i and 576i are converted into, respectively 480p and 576p.

Like I said, plasma and lcd tvs are unlike CRT tvs in that, among many other things, they can only display progressive images. As this is the case, while much content is still interlaced (even one of the high-def formats, 1080i, is still interlaced - even though it will never be seen in it's interlaced form for reasons I have already mentioned) all plasma and lcd tvs have to be able to de-interlace pictures themselves, aswell as upscale (and downscale) pictures. This is why it is misleading when upscaling dvd players are marketed as being capable of 'transforming standard-def material into high-def quality!' The issue is the quality of the upscaling and de-interlacing on offer. For example, a £60 dvd player with overly advertised upscaling capabilities won't come close to quality of the upscaling found onboard a high-end tv such as one of Pioneer's deservedly hyped-up Kuro range. So, where does your Panasonic 32LXD700 stand?

What makes it complicated is the fact that your tv has something which Panasonic call a '1080p Digital Re-mastering Processor.' This produces excellent results, but works in a rather odd way. What it does is upscale all incoming feeds up to 1080p - above the tv's own resolution of 1366 x 768! Then, it performs a simple downscale back to the tv's said resolution (1366 x 768) and the results are excellent.

So, (as I finally get to your actual, main enquiry), which of your components should do the honour of a) the de-interlacing b) the scaling? Bear in mind that I don't actually know which amp you have. What I know is that both your superb Denon dvd player and your equally superb Panasonic lcd tv are both excellent at upscaling content. So, I'm afraid I can't really answer this for you. It is really something that you must find out for yourself by trusting your own eyes and ears. Just keep in mind that you do really want as little scaling as possible - so no unnecessary scaling or other processing. Just make sure you don't have your dvd player de-interlacing your content only to then have your amp interlace it again, for your tv to then de-interlace the content for the second time!

Seriously though, just try out different combinations for yourself, but don't worry too much because all your equipment is extremely decent so whichever does what, you can't go too wrong. Good luck mate...

 

[david_tring]

Thanks for the thoughts Benjamin. You imply that the Panasonic's 1080p input-upscale process can't be turned off, so I assume therefore that I should let the amp get the signal up to this resolution, setting its output to 1080p so that the Panasonic doesn't need to add another conversion.

My amp is the Onkyo TX-SR875, which I think has a better video scaling engine than the Denon 2930 (or so it seems from the What Hi-Fi reviews) so I'm really looking to understand what resolution the Denon should be set to output and what the amp should do with that signal.

Therefore the only question now seems to be - do I leave the Denon's output on its (default) 480p/576p, or do I set it to 480i/576i and let the amp handle that first stage of conversion from interlaced to progressive scan as well as the upscale to 1080p? The later would seem to have the least number of conversions in the least number of pieces of kit!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi David. If I had known which amp you were using then I would have definitely said to leave the scaling to the amp, such is the quality of it's video processing. One of the reasons that this amp is so good with video is because it has HQV coutesy of a Realta chip, made by Teranex in partnership with Silicon Optix. HQV (Hollywood Quality Video) is probably the best de-interlacer / upscaler on the market. It is used proffessionally by some major television studios to upscale, de-interlace and generally clean up video, which it does superbly.

So yeah, you want to leave everything (upscaling and de-interlacing) to the amp. So have your Denon dvd player set to output 480i / 576i. Then have the Onkyo set to upscale to 1080p. Your tv will then not have much to do - just a simple downscale.

So just to be extra clear, set your Denon dvd player to output 480i / 576i. This leaves both the upscaling and the de-interlacing to the Onkyo amp and it's excellent video processing.

 

[david_tring]

Many thanks for the answers Benjamin - I'll tinker with the settings tonight (while England thrash the Swiss.....or not......).

 

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

Seems like a lot of super knowledge around this thread, so here goes with my question.
At present I have a Panasonic CRT TV, which is I would like to update to the new Panasonic 37" Plasma, is it worth it though if I have no HD source, ie Sky etc. Also the DVD is older and has no HD output.

thanks
Andy

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest, you will probably find that your CRT tv gives better results with a low quality standard-def source such as Freeview, which can be exposed as quite ropey and as having a really low bit-rate by new (and sharper), progressive-scan flatscreens. So, if you were only going to watch Freeview then you should stay with your CRT (which I'm sure is pretty good). However, with a decent standard-def source like DVD, then the Panasonic 37" plasma (TH-37PX70) will produce a decent enough picture. What would be even better though, is if you were to also buy a good upscaling DVD player, such as the Denon 1740 which can be had for less than £150. This will upscale DVDs to high-def, then send pictures to your tv via digital HDMI, with no loss of quality. Obviously this won't be as good as real high-def, but it is definitely a big step up from non-upscaled (standard-def) DVDs, and will provide you with a picture that is definitely worth ditching the standard-def CRT for and getting the Panny plasma you talk about. Good luck mate.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that.
While on the subject of up-scaling, if you have an up-scaling DVD player with digital tuner, can you watch TV channels through it and expect to get a better picture than watching just the tele tuner. If so, then I guess it makes more sense to upgrade both TV and DVD player/recorder at the same time.