Yamaha Z7 to Pioneer LX83 - A Worthy Upgrade ?

[Frank Harvey]

Sorry, didn't read that properly. Of the options to upgrade to, the LX83 given its used price, but if you have a Z7, you may as well stick with that for now and see what raft of upgrades the next receivers bring.

I posted this up because I thought it was a new thread - the web page was showing it as a new topic with only 3 posts - odd.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You'll probably find that they're not too different as far as power consumption is concerned, but I'd need to check the specs.

I had a Pioneer 82, then 83, then 85, but moving to the 5509/1575 has been quite a step, for both movies and music. It's basically the next decent step up from the £2k receivers. The EQ is the best I've tried, and as you may know, I've tried most of them. Unless Onkyo make a wrong turn, I can't see me deviating from their processor unless I was enticed by a Bryston or a Classe. I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon with 4K2K projectors appearing though! :rofl:

You'll find the 1575 will drive the 950's much better than the Z7 does. When I had my M&K S150's, the Class D amps of the Pioneer did a much better job (than my previous Yamaha 3800) at making them sound like they should sound - this is usually the territory of the top end receivers (SCLX90/DSPZ11/AVCA1HDA etc). This why I went with the Rotel power amplifier. Not only did I keep the same type of amplification, but I moved up powerwise too (500wpc/4ohms), plus I got better processing, better room EQ, and better music performance. And that's aside from movies sounding better.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

-Power this amp has serious power, rated 170w x 5 as much as Krell Power Amp - it goes so loud but never loses composure ever - this is likely due to all what I have mentioned above already as well as good quality amplification

Hi ellisdj

Good numbers however does the LX83 offer comparable quality of drive, grip, control and stability of Krell power amplification?

Btw, in case you missed it Krell's current amplifiers can offer up to 900w/ch.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it

Hi ellisdj

How about an ATC active multi channel system? I feel with an ATC active multi channel you'll look at aspects of reproduction such as accuracy, precision, deep, thrilling, power etc. in a different light to your LX83/805 combination.

Btw, unless i've missed something big time i find it odd that you've only taken up the LX83/Pioneer matter with bigboss even though there is another member in this thread who has clearly stated his dislike for Pioneer amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

Btw, unless i've missed something big time i find it odd that you've only taken up the LX83/Pioneer matter with bigboss even though there is another member in this thread who has clearly stated his dislike for Pioneer amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick

The other member also finds it odd; but isn't surprised, as his wife keeps telling him that most of what he knows is either wrong, or of little use. :doh:

All the best

Cno

 

[Anonymous]

You'll probably find that they're not too different as far as power consumption is concerned, but I'd need to check the specs.

I had a Pioneer 82, then 83, then 85, but moving to the 5509/1575 has been quite a step, for both movies and music. It's basically the next decent step up from the £2k receivers. The EQ is the best I've tried, and as you may know, I've tried most of them. Unless Onkyo make a wrong turn, I can't see me deviating from their processor unless I was enticed by a Bryston or a Classe. I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon with 4K2K projectors appearing though! :rofl:

You'll find the 1575 will drive the 950's much better than the Z7 does. When I had my M&K S150's, the Class D amps of the Pioneer did a much better job (than my previous Yamaha 3800) at making them sound like they should sound - this is usually the territory of the top end receivers (SCLX90/DSPZ11/AVCA1HDA etc). This why I went with the Rotel power amplifier. Not only did I keep the same type of amplification, but I moved up powerwise too (500wpc/4ohms), plus I got better processing, better room EQ, and better music performance. And that's aside from movies sounding better.

Thanks for the reply David.500w per channel is awesome,iv just checked the power consumption of the rotel/onkyo, combined its 710w the z7 is 500w, would I be right thinking I wouldn't need to turn the volume up as much on the rotel to reach the same decibel levels as the z7? because it's got much more power on tap?do onkyo have any plans to change the 5509 with a new model this year? I know they change there receivers quite often and it's frustrating buying something then 6 months later it gets replaced by a new model. then when you decide to move yours on the value drops like a stone.I'm shocked at how much money iv lost on my z7 in under 2 years but that's just the way it is I suppose.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You should be playing at roughly the same volume, as once the system is calibrated, -18dB on the Yamaha should be the same volume level as -18dB on the Onkyo/Rotel. You'll more than likely find that the more livelier sound of the Onkyo/Rotel plus the better dynamic capabilities of the combination might make it seem louder - obviously the Rotel will have more headroom too.

The 5509 was released around September I think, so a newer model will probably be appearing around then, if they feel there is anything to update. Unfortunately, that's the way things are with AV receivers and projectors - I've been in the same boat. When the new models arrive, it's either a case of going the whole hog, or going for the outgoing model which will be cheaper. Either way you'll lose out as a year later there's a new one and the outdated one you bought is then two years old! Although, it all hinges on what's been updated with the newer model....

We do have contingency plans in place to help our customers though...

 

[ellisdj]

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it

Hi ellisdj

How about an ATC active multi channel system? I feel with an ATC active multi channel you'll look at aspects of reproduction such as accuracy, precision, deep, thrilling, power etc. in a different light to your LX83/805 combination.

Btw, unless i've missed something big time i find it odd that you've only taken up the LX83/Pioneer matter with bigboss even though there is another member in this thread who has clearly stated his dislike for Pioneer amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick I didnt take anything up with anybody with vindictiveness - just pointed out his mistake in recommendation.

I think he had the wrong model in his head when he made the recommendation that the Z7 was a better amp than the LX83.

I dont care what people like or prefer, thats up to them - but when you have personal experiences of owning both receivers then I thought I would clear that up what was said as the guy looking to upgrade will clearly get a big improvement by going from his Z7 to Lx83

I am sure you know this as well.

 

[ellisdj]

-Power this amp has serious power, rated 170w x 5 as much as Krell Power Amp - it goes so loud but never loses composure ever - this is likely due to all what I have mentioned above already as well as good quality amplification

Hi ellisdj

Good numbers however does the LX83 offer comparable quality of drive, grip, control and stability of Krell power amplification?

Btw, in case you missed it Krell's current amplifiers can offer up to 900w/ch.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick again - my comments on the power of the LX83 was taken from this worthy source / review that I am tryng to find now.

It was an onlice copy of a magazine where they measured the power out put of the LX83 in 2 channel and 5 channel and then power consumption aswell. This was down the right hand side of the right page as you look at it.

They say it rated as highly as the Krell Power amp - there was no mention of what was better just that it was commendable to achieve those figures - the S1500 is the Krell

http://issuu.com/pioneereurope/docs/home_cinema_choice_reviews_sclx53

 

[BenLaw]

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it

Hi ellisdj

How about an ATC active multi channel system? I feel with an ATC active multi channel you'll look at aspects of reproduction such as accuracy, precision, deep, thrilling, power etc. in a different light to your LX83/805 combination.

Btw, unless i've missed something big time i find it odd that you've only taken up the LX83/Pioneer matter with bigboss even though there is another member in this thread who has clearly stated his dislike for Pioneer amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick I didnt take anything up with anybody with vindictiveness - just pointed out his mistake in recommendation.

I think he had the wrong model in his head when he made the recommendation that the Z7 was a better amp than the LX83.

I dont care what people like or prefer, thats up to them - but when you have personal experiences of owning both receivers then I thought I would clear that up what was said as the guy looking to upgrade will clearly get a big improvement by going from his Z7 to Lx83

I am sure you know this as well.

Wow, you still don't get the difference between 'what people like or prefer' and being objectively better, do you? You are not the oracle, your personal preference is not an objective standard.

 

[ellisdj]

Was testing, its a shame we cannot put pictures on here.

I will link to another forum I use - I have posted my MCCAC Calibration Graphs - my experiences with av amps are limited by comparison to you guys in the shops I am sure - however I am yet to see anything that rivals what you see with MCCAC and how that allwos you to calibrate.

This is without further purchase - just using the in built software and free download software on a pc and the included mic

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18361144&page=3

 

[ellisdj]

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it

Hi ellisdj

How about an ATC active multi channel system? I feel with an ATC active multi channel you'll look at aspects of reproduction such as accuracy, precision, deep, thrilling, power etc. in a different light to your LX83/805 combination.

Btw, unless i've missed something big time i find it odd that you've only taken up the LX83/Pioneer matter with bigboss even though there is another member in this thread who has clearly stated his dislike for Pioneer amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick I didnt take anything up with anybody with vindictiveness - just pointed out his mistake in recommendation.

I think he had the wrong model in his head when he made the recommendation that the Z7 was a better amp than the LX83.

I dont care what people like or prefer, thats up to them - but when you have personal experiences of owning both receivers then I thought I would clear that up what was said as the guy looking to upgrade will clearly get a big improvement by going from his Z7 to Lx83

I am sure you know this as well.

Wow, you still don't get the difference between 'what people like or prefer' and being objectively better, do you? You are not the oracle, your personal preference is not an objective standard.

Its not about preference mate its about facts - based on my experiences of OWNING BOTH and every review you can find. What else is there to base recommendations on

When I said I dont care about other peoples opoinions - I mean thats for them to post and comment not for me to say - I fully appreciate everyone is entitled to their opinon, buy whatever you want its up to you

However The LX 83 is in every area a better amp than the Z7 - you find some credible information that supports the other way.

I know there is likely much better out there than the LX83 as people have suggested / made comment on my comment - I have not once said that there is not - but that wasnt the ops question. His Question was - is the LX83 a worthy upgrade to his Z7

 

[BenLaw]

At the risk of giving you some bizarre satisfaction at even entering into a debate with you, here goes:

Its not about preference mate its about facts

I'm not your mate, please don't be so presumptious.

based on my experiences of OWNING BOTH and every review you can find.

Ah, so 'your experience' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. The opinion of 'every reviewer' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. You either struggle with definitions or are trolling on this point.

What else is there to base recommendations on

Perhaps, as BB has recommended, and as WHF constantly recommends, the OP's own ears? If you are saying it is not possible that he will find the Z7 'better' you are wrong.

However The LX 83 is in every area a better amp than the Z7 - you find some credible information that supports the other way.

If you want to link to some comparative reviews either way, fine. I'm not going to waste my time googling.

By your warped logic, there would merely have to be one person who has heard both and considers the Z7 to be better for it objectively to be better. Unless of course you consider your opinion to be superior to all others.....

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

The SCLX85 still uses Class D amplification.

 

[BenLaw]

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

The SCLX85 still uses Class D amplification.

I never said it didn't.

 

[ellisdj]

At the risk of giving you some bizarre satisfaction at even entering into a debate with you, here goes:

Its not about preference mate its about facts

I'm not your mate, please don't be so presumptious.

based on my experiences of OWNING BOTH and every review you can find.

Ah, so 'your experience' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. The opinion of 'every reviewer' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. You either struggle with definitions or are trolling on this point.

What else is there to base recommendations on

Perhaps, as BB has recommended, and as WHF constantly recommends, the OP's own ears? If you are saying it is not possible that he will find the Z7 'better' you are wrong.

However The LX 83 is in every area a better amp than the Z7 - you find some credible information that supports the other way.

If you want to link to some comparative reviews either way, fine. I'm not going to waste my time googling.

By your warped logic, there would merely have to be one person who has heard both and considers the Z7 to be better for it objectively to be better. Unless of course you consider your opinion to be superior to all others.....

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

What a stupid answer - my non mate. Business moves in this industry to sell simple as - the same in the pc world.

What would they sell if they didnt bring out new models - they have used ICE now for 3 models and every 1 has won every award on this site as well as on others FACT!

I have read reports of a fair few faulty LX83s due to the ICE amps maybe thats why they moved on - or maybe Bang Olufson put their price up and it made it non commercial for Pioneer to use them - this is very likely in this climate

Or maybe now pioneer are in high fi they wanted to use amps they manufacture - i doubt this -

they have likely found a third party manufacturer to make a higher quality product - or a product that is of high enough qaulity but is cheaper to buy in so they are using that.

Money is key at the minute - the big Jap co.s are making massive losses - how are the going to up their profit margin when prices are being cut?????

This is all obvious stuff my non mate

Plus to think that its only the ice amp that makes the difference with the Pioneer range is to not know them at all - There is tons more to it than that - that is just one element they sell them on.

In use - the 32 bit dac, full band phase correction, pqls, standign wave correction and advanced mccac are all in their and amake a worthy contribution to making this amp sound the way it does - again award winner for 2010

 

[BenLaw]

At the risk of giving you some bizarre satisfaction at even entering into a debate with you, here goes:

Its not about preference mate its about facts

I'm not your mate, please don't be so presumptious.

based on my experiences of OWNING BOTH and every review you can find.

Ah, so 'your experience' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. The opinion of 'every reviewer' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. You either struggle with definitions or are trolling on this point.

What else is there to base recommendations on

Perhaps, as BB has recommended, and as WHF constantly recommends, the OP's own ears? If you are saying it is not possible that he will find the Z7 'better' you are wrong.

However The LX 83 is in every area a better amp than the Z7 - you find some credible information that supports the other way.

If you want to link to some comparative reviews either way, fine. I'm not going to waste my time googling.

By your warped logic, there would merely have to be one person who has heard both and considers the Z7 to be better for it objectively to be better. Unless of course you consider your opinion to be superior to all others.....

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

What a stupid answer - my non mate. Business moves in this industry to sell simple as - the same in the pc world.

What would they sell if they didnt bring out new models - they have used ICE now for 3 models and every 1 has won every award on this site as well as on others FACT!

I have read reports of a fair few faulty LX83s due to the ICE amps maybe thats why they moved on - or maybe Bang Olufson put their price up and it made it non commercial for Pioneer to use them - this is very likely in this climate

Or maybe now pioneer are in high fi they wanted to use amps they manufacture - i doubt this -

they have likely found a third party manufacturer to make a higher quality product - or a product that is of high enough qaulity but is cheaper to buy in so they are using that.

Money is key at the minute - the big Jap co.s are making massive losses - how are the going to up their profit margin when prices are being cut?????

This is all obvious stuff my non mate

Plus to think that its only the ice amp that makes the difference with the Pioneer range is not to not know them at all - There is tons more to it than that - that is just one element they sell them on.

In use - the 32 bit dac, full band phase correction, pqls, standign wave correction and advanced mccac are all in their and amake a worthy contribution to making this amp sound the way it does - again award winner for 2010

You've stilled missed the point, but I won't repeat it for a third time as you're either incapable of comprehension or refusing to simply in a failed attempt to antagonise.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Just making the point that they haven't moved away from Class D amplification, only B&O's ICE.

 

[ellisdj]

At the risk of giving you some bizarre satisfaction at even entering into a debate with you, here goes:

Its not about preference mate its about facts

I'm not your mate, please don't be so presumptious.

based on my experiences of OWNING BOTH and every review you can find.

Ah, so 'your experience' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. The opinion of 'every reviewer' equates to a 'fact' of which is objectively better. You either struggle with definitions or are trolling on this point.

What else is there to base recommendations on

Perhaps, as BB has recommended, and as WHF constantly recommends, the OP's own ears? If you are saying it is not possible that he will find the Z7 'better' you are wrong.

However The LX 83 is in every area a better amp than the Z7 - you find some credible information that supports the other way.

If you want to link to some comparative reviews either way, fine. I'm not going to waste my time googling.

By your warped logic, there would merely have to be one person who has heard both and considers the Z7 to be better for it objectively to be better. Unless of course you consider your opinion to be superior to all others.....

I'm sure if the LX83 were so good, Pioneer would not have felt the need to move away from ICEpower amplification.

What a stupid answer - my non mate. Business moves in this industry to sell simple as - the same in the pc world.

What would they sell if they didnt bring out new models - they have used ICE now for 3 models and every 1 has won every award on this site as well as on others FACT!

I have read reports of a fair few faulty LX83s due to the ICE amps maybe thats why they moved on - or maybe Bang Olufson put their price up and it made it non commercial for Pioneer to use them - this is very likely in this climate

Or maybe now pioneer are in high fi they wanted to use amps they manufacture - i doubt this -

they have likely found a third party manufacturer to make a higher quality product - or a product that is of high enough qaulity but is cheaper to buy in so they are using that.

Money is key at the minute - the big Jap co.s are making massive losses - how are the going to up their profit margin when prices are being cut?????

This is all obvious stuff my non mate

Plus to think that its only the ice amp that makes the difference with the Pioneer range is not to not know them at all - There is tons more to it than that - that is just one element they sell them on.

In use - the 32 bit dac, full band phase correction, pqls, standign wave correction and advanced mccac are all in their and amake a worthy contribution to making this amp sound the way it does - again award winner for 2010

You've stilled missed the point, but I won't repeat it for a third time as you're either incapable of comprehension or refusing to simply in a failed attempt to antagonise.

Ok I think I understand what you are getting at

I prefer Coke where as you prefer Pepsi - both are similar do the same thing right - preference is taste fair play

Where as I am getting at / saying - I prefer an Aston Martin you prefer a ford focus - extreme example (not aimed at the kit just ised as example), a touch out of context -

both do the same thing, one does it better you would say based on price, spec, your eyes, your ears, your experience, professionals in the trade.

This is my basis of comment on the LX83 against the Z7 - where as you can still have your opinion that the Ford Focus is better to you than an aston martin, but that is not going to be a general consensus

 

[BenLaw]

Your analogy is worthless. You call it an 'extreme example' but it is so extreme as not to apply. The amps are price-comparable. Make your point with two price comparable cars. Except you can't, because it becomes a matter of subjective opinion.

 

[ellisdj]

Your analogy is worthless. You call it an 'extreme example' but it is so extreme as not to apply. The amps are price-comparable. Make your point with two price comparable cars. Except you can't, because it becomes a matter of subjective opinion.

I dont know the cost of most cars to buy therefore I used 2 well known ones to prove the point that one is clearly better due to its engineering, design, function - however a closer example for you a 20k ford is likely a proposition against a 20k bmw as it may come with more extras - but the bmw will be a better engineered car, driver better, be quicker, have better fuel ecomony, look better, sound better - the same example / end result my non mate

You are aguing a lost cause - this is all your opinion you are trying to put over, likely a Yamaha owner - obviously every 1 's opinion is their own and sound is one of them unmeasurable things in this world.

Therefore back to where I started from - the guy has a Z7 is obviously unhappy with the sound or thinks there is more to come from the sound of his systems, he may have heard a LX83 and thought wow that does thing my Yamaha doesnt. Otherwise why is helookign to upgrade?

I was very happy with my Z7 and no way was the LX83 going to be any better - 5 minutes is all it took and I sold and bought 1.

Since then I have learned how to get even more from the LX83 so it gives the balance of everything - it gives me everthing the Yamaha did (the best of it) but better and everything the Yamaha didnt give me.

These amps are clearly stand out - the award winners every year - over more expensive Arcams, Onkyos, Yamahas and Anthem all reviewed very highly. I dont see why based on that fact alone I can be criticised for saying that the LX83 is clearly better than the Z7??? I am bemused by this whole argumement / thread

 

[BenLaw]

I dont know the cost of most cars to buy therefore I used 2 well known ones to prove the point that one is clearly better due to its engineering, design, function - however a closer example for you a 20k ford is likely a proposition against a 20k bmw as it may come with more extras - but the bmw will be a better engineered car, driver better, be quicker, have better fuel ecomony, look better, sound better - the same example / end result my non mate

Not the same example at all - surely you aren't suggesting that the only difference between the Z7 and the LX83 justifying similar pricing is that the Z7 'comes with more extras'?? Perhaps you should try again, with a bit more thought.

You are aguing a lost cause

I'm not arguing any 'cause', I've not expressed my opinion as to which is better at all. If I did, my opinion would be just as valid as yours.

this is all your opinion you are trying to put over, likely a Yamaha owner

No and no. My kit is in my signature.

obviously every 1 's opinion is their own

:clap: Finallly (tho I'm sure you don't really believe this).

and sound is one of them unmeasurable things in this world

Well, no, but personal, subjective preference is.

the guy has a Z7 is obviously unhappy with the sound or thinks there is more to come from the sound of his systems, he may have heard a LX83 and thought wow that does thing my Yamaha doesnt.

Speculation. If he hasn't heard it, then he might like the LX83 less than the Z7.

I am bemused by this whole argumement / thread

Then why do you keep posting on it the same point over and over?

 

[ellisdj]

Then why do you keep posting on it the same point over and over?

[/quote]

The same reason you do..... the same reason you keep putting so called smart responses to my points

Still stand by my comments - that are backed up the whole professional industry - the LX83 is better, otherwise it would not be the best amp to buy £1500 + in 2010.

What you havent accepted is that whether you prefer somethig or not is completely different to whether something is better than something else.

I may support and love west ham and hate man united - but i appreciate that man united are a better team and play better football

This is excactly the same......

 

[BenLaw]

Then why do you keep posting on it the same point over and over?

The same reason you do..... the same reason you keep putting so called smart responses to my points

Still stand by my comments - that are backed up the whole professional industry - the LX83 is better, otherwise it would not be the best amp to buy £1500 + in 2010.

What you havent accepted is that whether you prefer somethig or not is completely different to whether something is better than something else.

I may support and love west ham and hate man united - but i appreciate that man united are a better team and play better football

This is excactly the same......

Except that despite the awards, WHF would still tell you it's only their opinion and that a comparative audition (especially between 2 such highly regarded amps) is essential. And my responses aren't 'so called smart', they merely highlight the deficiencies in your points. I've gone round in enough circles now, I'm out.

 

[ellisdj]

The award for the BEST is simply that - they say listen for yourself just in case you disagree but in our Professional Opinion (we hear and play with it all) this is the best overall product you can buy in this category this year.

My opinion is the same as theirs and yet that is wrong.

I have owned both and have a very good undertsanding of how to use them well / set them up well - most recently my knowledge has grown a lot, i did not have as much knowledge when i owned the Z7 but there was very little you could do with it (as a mere mortal) anyway other than run an auto YPAO.

I wrote a 3 page guide of how to use it, set it up and get the best from it to the guy I sold it to - he loved it. I loved it its a very good amp.

The Pioneers on the other hand allow you to achieve what a pro calibrator would charge £300 for with relative ease - that is get a neutral curve and actually see with graphs what sound you are getting. see a few posts before I linked to pics of my mccac results

On top of that is a hole host of tech, features that all work together to make one great overall package.

The amp is better in every area than the Z7 - even down to the remote that works off RF rather than IR - EVERY area its better! to the extent every area is better obviously would be up for debate as per person and their preference in sound etc, but it Cannot be denied that is a newer, more advanced, more powerful, more refined, better engineered, more flexible machine. The only area that its not that I can think of is power consumption - it very juicy when running hard according to the review I linked to earlier