Yamaha Z7 to Pioneer LX83 - A Worthy Upgrade ?

[bigboss]

ellisdj, you're totally missing the point here. No one is arguing that you find the LX83 to be better than the Z7. Even specs wise, the LX83 is better than the Z7. Why don't you just state that & finish the topic?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however flawed that might be, right? So let it be! If I feel a Ford Focus is better than an Aston Martin, so be it. That's my opinion. People may scoff at me (although I can always point out the practically of a Ford over an Aston Martin), but I'm still entitled to an opinion. In the same vein, I am entitled to the opinion that I did not like the Pioneer during my demo. Please respect this, in the same way as I respect your experience where you found the Pioneer to be better.

Let the OP get convinced by a direct demo (as I mentioned in my 2nd post) & buy the LX83 if he/she agrees with your opinion. The OP has already deferred his/her purchase due to lack of funds, but the strong recommendation continues to pour in

WHF reviewers always stress the point of not blindly buying the award winners. Always demo before purchase. You cannot just buy an award winning amp & award winning speakers & expect them to perform like a winner. A demo is extremely important. We all have our preferences to sound. IIRC, the editor of What HiFi owns a 3 or 4 star rated TV.

 

[ellisdj]

The point has always been undertsood, however people post questions on here to get quick answers to justoify spending money. There will likely be people reading this thread time again if they have the same question. I have read millions of threads in my day

I have been thinking about things a lot since this debate, and the opinions you have raised.

I have used several analogies this is another one.

My Aunt/ Uncle and my cousin (their kid) both have the TV's on Vivid mode - probably because thats how it was out of the box.

Now to me thats a cardinal sin - I have adjusted their TV to be more inline with what I would call normal and they didnt like - it was too dull for them - thats their opinion / choice.

However we all know that to have a TV on vivid mode is wrong based against a calibration or the colour scale whatever it is called that would give you an ideal / as perfect picture as you could get with that tv - That is how it is supposed to be, but they prefer it on vivid.

The reason they prefer it on vivid is because thats what they are used to - nothing more - if educated / given time and enough interest to realise that is wrong / a calibrated image is better do you think they would change their opinion? very likely

The amp situation / sound is exactly the same - people including myself think things sound best, until you hear better.

Now better is not always clear at first and can often be perceieved as worse - you get used to hearing things a certain way and then when its different the brain instantly says its wrong, well thats not always the case, sometimes its actually wrong to start with

Surely the point of all this expensive kit is to get a sound thats exactly as the maker intended / hearing it how you are suppsoed to Reference?

Anyone will know the higher the food chain you go with high fi av, the more it rips apart what you feed it - therefore what is clearly better could initially easily be perceived as worse - given time and education anyone can come to realise that what they thought was right - might actually be very wrong.

Now I am basing all my comments on that fact that I am about 500% closer to hearing things how they are supposed to be / was made than when I had my Z7 - however if thats not your goal then maybe this amp isnt better to you?

 

[bigboss]

The point has always been undertsood, however people post questions on here to get quick answers to justoify spending money. There will likely be people reading this thread time again if they have the same question. I have read millions of threads in my day

I have been thinking about things a lot since this debate, and the opinions you have raised.

I have used several analogies this is another one.

My Aunt/ Uncle and my cousin (their kid) both have the TV's on Vivid mode - probably because thats how it was out of the box.

Now to me thats a cardinal sin - I have adjusted their TV to be more inline with what I would call normal and they didnt like - it was too dull for them - thats their opinion / choice.

However we all know that to have a TV on vivid mode is wrong based against a calibration or the colour scale whatever it is called that would give you an ideal / as perfect picture as you could get with that tv - That is how it is supposed to be, but they prefer it on vivid.

The reason they prefer it on vivid is because thats what they are used to - nothing more - if educated / given time and enough interest to realise that is wrong / a calibrated image is better do you think they would change their opinion? very likely

The amp situation / sound is exactly the same - people including myself think things sound best, until you hear better.

Now better is not always clear at first and can often be perceieved as worse - you get used to hearing things a certain way and then when its different the brain instantly says its wrong, well thats not always the case, sometimes its actually wrong to start with

Surely the point of all this expensive kit is to get a sound thats exactly as the maker intended / hearing it how you are suppsoed to Reference?

Anyone will know the higher the food chain you go with high fi av, the more it rips apart what you feed it - therefore what is clearly better could initially easily be perceived as worse - given time and education anyone can come to realise that what they thought was right - might actually be very wrong.

Now I am basing all my comments on that fact that I am about 500% closer to hearing things how they are supposed to be / was made than when I had my Z7 - however if thats not your goal then maybe this amp isnt better to you?

Exactly. The TV example is apt. We all know how unnatural it looks in vivid setting, yet many people prefer it! There's no right or wrong in AV & HiFi world. We all have our individual preferences. That's why we have so many products to choose from.

 

[ellisdj]

One last post on this subject - reason of doing so if someone reads this thread, gets bored and skips to the end this will hopefully help them make a decision. This is my subjective reasoning for upgrading to the Pioneer and for saying everything I have thus far.

I have owned both of these and used them a lot - I have NO sound from my TV, all my sound at all times goes through my AV - so we are talking all TV, Music and Films.

The Yamaha Z7 is a fantastic everyday amp, great to own as its reliable and gives through design a warm and airy sound and its performance was improved toward the end of my owning with a firmware update (new algorithms or something) - all good news, maybe improved again since, I dont know. It does an excellent job of up scaling - good old anchor bay.

To me the downside of the amp - which were not apparent until I heard and owned the Pioneer is the settings choice, the limitation of its YPAO and their impact on the overall sound. Once you have run a calibration (which is basic) you can choose from memory 3 options - flat, natural and another one?

I wanted to use flat as it seemed to have the most life to the sound (flat curve is what you want), however when turned up the composure was not there, especially by comparison to the Pioneer - will explain what I mean / why after - the scene that really showed this to me was in the Blu Ray Hulk, near the end where the guy is firing at the bad Hulk from the Chopper - that whole scene on the Pioneer was alive and buzzing - with every gun shot crisp - where as on the Yamaha it was there but lost by comparison - airy in that instance is not what you are supposed to be getting...

On the Natural Setting which is Yamahas recommended - which is basically a curve with a lot of X Curve added I would guess about -2.0db from the graph it plots on GUI, at the time this seemed too flat for my liking - I actually know now Yamaha recommend it as I think X Curve is essential in a standard living room/ non treated listening room. There is so many reflective surfaces that the treble will bounce around causing it to peak and its masks the upper mid and true treble detail - you may not realise this is what you are most likely currently hearing if you dont have any X Curve on. However using the Natural setting when turned up was even more airy and laid back and again that not what the sound I wanted, especially for big action films.

The end result was a warm airy sound overall, that I was never quite satisfied with - I could never get the right balance between the limited settings and once I heard how the Pioneer bettered it, despite trying all manner of settings and adjustments I could not get it to compete at all. While enjoyable the Yamaha sound is, it gets muddled and lost when it needs to be tight and crisp for both music and films - now this is driving B&W N805 and HTM4s Speakers, these are demanding, but I dont think the amp lacks power, but for these speakers it was not enough. This effect might likely be lessened driving small more efficient satellites - but I still dont think even in this instance it would better the Pioneer as I now know that the YPAO in the Z7 is a basic Parametric Equalizer by comparison to the Advanced MCCAC in the Pioneer LX 83

The reason I say the Pioneer betters the Yamaha in every area is because it truly does (power consumption aside).

Starting with Advanced MCCAC - this is a far more advanced setup than the Z7 YPAO and takes about 3 times as long for starters and thats not because its slow, its because its more in depth. You also need to run it at least twice to get it setup properly and I wonder how many people do this? You have to run setup A - then manually change your crossover 80htz and speaker size to small then run setup B selecting to keep those settings first. I think most people would run it once Setup A, change the speaker size and crossover and leave it thinking that is right – its not! All Channel adjust I have found should be selected because every speaker is in a different part of an untreated room so needs to be equalised independently.

The EQ of MCCAC is very effective and very accurate – it gets you close to a reference curve, but tends to run the upper mids a touch hot – giving a forward sound

You can run a reverb measurement with MCCAC and look at your in room speakers response on free software - you can then manually adjust the eq to improve the sound if you know how (its easy). This is all advanced stuff that a calibrator would do at additional cost and its made easy and available without spending anymore money. This is way more advanced and better than the YPAO in the Z7 but the difference doesn’t finish there.

The other technologies within the calibration are Full Band Phase Correction and Standing Wave Correction. These are both different ways of cleaning up the sound and combating negative room effects. Full Band Phase helps align the speaker drivers / tweeter output of all speakers so that the listener receives the correct sound in phase from all 5 or 7 speakers at all times. You can turn this on and off but with it on the sound is 100% cleaner and you can hear what the tech does. This is one of the main contributors to why the sound is so much cleaner than the Yamaha, and is most noted when its loud and all kicking off – the sound is always composed. Standing Wave Correction helps integrate the bass of the speakers with your sub, it get bass dips up and peaks out to match the flat curve you want and it does it fantastically well , I have tested this using proper bass/ room calibration software – this is especially beneficial and clear to hear with music, as its essential to get a smooth curve through the cross over point. The Yamaha did nothing like this and does not compete in this area either – this is where the Pioneer is the next level on.

The remote on the Pioneer is better – it works off Radio or Infra Red so that you point it anywhere it works – the menus / remote / GUI are cleaner, clearer and faster than on the Yamaha. I always found the D Pad on the Yamaha remote very slow and hard to work as was the menus, slow I mean. The remote also has a screen that displays everything you do so you could easily control the amp from anywhere – you don’t need to look at it.

The amplification in the Pioneer I would argue as better – I know ICE drives harder loads better and this has been commented by several guys in the trade in this very thread. It drives my speakers better and I am sure is another contributory factor of the cleaner sound. Its rated as more powerful and seriously is a beast – I say its better in this department.

Build Quality is of at least equal if not higher – I think higher. I prefer the look the colouring Display colour etc – Yamaha have just changed the colour from orange so they must do too.

Video Up scaling is an area I expected to take a hit when I upgraded – its initially a different look at first I wasn’t sure – but even in this area the Pioneer is better – the image I find crisper, with better movement.

I don’t use web radio, streaming or other such inclusions so I cannot comment on how these compare.

To Surmise as this is long.

Out of the box – using Pioneers auto Cal you get a far more upfront lively sound than the Yamaha – they have set it to be that way. Its certainly more exciting because its so clean and close to reference so you are hearing it very close to how you are supposed to. Its exciting when its supposed to be and laid back when its supposed to be.

Reference is not always preference, I have mentioned before that if its different to what you are used to then it may appear initially as wrong – However if Reference is how it is supposed to be How Can It Be Wrong?

Now if you prefer a laid back sound all the time and are worried about moving to the Pioneer because of its bright reputation – you can make Pioneer mega laid back by easily changing a few settings, adding X Curve and adjusting the EQ based on easy to read graphical information. However that would be negative to its magic really so maybe its not for you but consider this

With the Pioneer you can make it laid back – however with the Yamaha you Cant inject the pazazz that the Pioneer possesses. It Simply does not have the tech. It will not do what the Pioneer does, but the Pioneer does everthing that the Z7 does and it does it all as good if not better. Its never tiring and never too much no matter how loud you push her – the tech keeps the sound composed at all times now to me this is likely the main reason why they are the Award winners every year – because the sound is the most composed / clear in the competition.

Now I have tried to fully explain why the Pioneer betters the Z7 and I have only touched the surface of it – highlighting the main features. With the Pioneer you can find the balance you want and can have your cake and eat it – it is a stunning amp the never ceases to impress. If you are looking to upgrade you obviously feel similar to me that you are struggling to settle for the Z7 sound.

Apologies for any offence caused while posting on here - it was never my intention Big Boss and the other chap, however my feelings are so strong. These feelings are not based on mere speculation or the fact one is award winner they are based on pure facts / experience / the learning curve / the final end result of owning both.

I want the best sound possible - to me thats getting it as close to the initial recording as possible - thats what Air Studios want, thats what Hi Fi is all about and as I have said the Pioneer gets you a lot closer to this end result

 

[CnoEvil]

Apologies for any offence caused while posting on here - it was never my intention Big Boss and the other chap, however my feelings are so strong. These feelings are not based on mere speculation or the fact one is award winner they are based on pure facts / experience / the learning curve / the final end result of owning both.

I want the best sound possible - to me thats getting it as close to the initial recording as possible - thats what Air Studios want, thats what Hi Fi is all about and as I have said the Pioneer gets you a lot closer to this end result

While following this thread, it has become clear that you are both knowledgeable and passionate, but I think that came across as arrogance on this impersonal medium, where it's so easy to get the wrong impression.

As so often happens on hifi forums, it became a circular polemic argument, but your last post helped to make your case clearer (without ruffling feathers).

My position is that it doesn't matter how technically brilliant something is (or how well reviewed), if you don't like the way it sounds.

In my case, with the exception of Bel Canto, I have yet to hear a Class D amp that I like. I would rather have a £4k Audio Note system, than a"maxed out" Linn Klimax one at many times the price. It's a strange hobby where the enjoyment of the end result is all that really counts.

The forum is littered with pleas for help, from people wondering why their 5* rated components (which they bought blind) don't live up to the expectation placed on them.

 

[JohnHolmes]

What about a Denon AVC A11XVA? should be a decent step up from yours I'd imagine.

 

[ellisdj]

I wasnt trying to be arrogant I am not that sort of person, I was expecting someone else to come on and post the same as me, someone who has gone from the Z7 to similar.

For anyone who has spent a good period of time with both I am sure would they wholesale agree with where I have highlighted the improvements of the 83 over the z7. I wasnt just arguing because I am an owner - its all 100% true and you could test both out to check

Whats interesting to see is what is better now?

There is a chap who has posted that he thinks his LX85 is not as powerful as his LX83.

I personally think he is basing that off the fact that he needs to turn his up more for the same ouput / volume.

Well if they have changed the MCCAC in that or improved it to give you a fully flat curve rather than with upper mids running hot well then the volume would appear less at the same db level. What also makes me think this is what they have done is that he comments that the treble is more rounded - well that is exactly what you get you manually flatten the response curve eq, and even more so when you add xcurve to -1.0db

This is how it sounds best no doubt, I would emplore all X83 owners to try it - you will most likely prefer it, spent £2k or close to, get the best out of it

!!

 

[Anonymous]

i think its interesting to note that what hi-fi team used the Z7 until recently as the ref AV amp in their home cinema testing set up. I don't believe there is a firm replacement yet (although the yamaha 3010 is standing in).. . .

 

[Anonymous]

i think its interesting to note that what hi-fi team used the Z7 until recently as the ref AV amp in their home cinema testing set up. I don't believe there is a firm replacement yet (although the yamaha 3010 is standing in).. . .

 

[ellisdj]

I would assume they have used the Z7 as a point of reference - not necessarily reference i.e. best

In every fair test there needs to be a standard remianing factor - i.e. we have started testing using this to change it would be make future tests invalid against previous tests.

I might get shot down in flames for this comment - but there is no way a Z7 is a reference level amp - they would use a Z11.

They would have also not been able to test 3D using this amp

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not wanting to start any more debates but I finaly took the plunge and now have an LX83 which, although I've only had it for 24 hours, I'm really enjoying. The first thing I noticed was that the sound seemed more dynamic and open without any hint of the "bright" sound I had been expecting.

However, I have just noticed that my centre speaker (KEF 200C) is rated at 4 Ohms whereas the LX83 is stated as being suitable for 6-8 Ohms. Is this going to be a problem or should I change the centre speaker ? When I ran MCACC the first time it stopped after a minute stating that the centre speaker was "out of phase" eventhough it wasn't so should I be concerned by this ?

The other problem I encountered was connecting my LX5090 to the HDMI 1 output as this resulted in the LX83 switching off once an image was displayed on the LX5090 screen. Changing to the HDMI 2 output resolved the problem but is there a setting I should change on the LX5090 so that I can use HDMI 1 ?

Thank You

 

[Frank Harvey]

Yup. Yet again the 'Pioneer receivers are bright' myth is dispelled. As I've said before, it's usually spread by those trying to discredit the Pioneer, or those who've never heard a Pioneer receiver, and are just repeating what someone else has said. That 'someone' may be doing the same thing.

You'll find the LX83 will drive 4ohm speakers like your KEF centre much better than any other £2k receiver. The Class D amplification just seems to be more stable than the usual Class A/B found in most other receivers.

When a receiver picks up a speaker as being out of phase, it either is (easy to check), or the microphone has been tricked into thinking it is. is it set back on a shelf! If so, the mic might be picking up HF reflection off it, and not receiving the correct signal. If this is the case, try moving the front edge of the centre to the edge of the shelf and try the set up again. It may also be worth swapping the cables around on the back of the speaker to see if the receiver comes up with the same message. If it does, there's a problem. If it doesn't, it might be worth playing some music and checking that all of the bass drivers and midrange of the centre are moving outwards on a kick drum, and not inwards.

Regarding your HDMI issue, as long as HDMI 1 is selected as your main out, things should be fine.

Enjoy

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you David for another excellent reply.

You're spot on about the mic and sound reflection as the centre speaker sits on the top glass shelf of the AV rack so I will run MCCACC again with the centre pulled forward. When MCCACC initially advised that the centre was out of phase I swapped the connectors on the back of the amp and MCCACC then ran without a hitch eventhough I had then put the centre speaker out of phase.

I swapped to the hDMI output last night and the problem of the LX83 going into standby when the picture came on the screen of the LX5090 was solved. However, I then found that I'd lost the OSD graphics from the LX83 for volume etc. I then changed back to the HDMI output and turned HDMI controll of on both the TV and the amp and again the problem was solved but still no OSD graphics. I have therefore switched all HDMI control settings on both the amp and TV to ON and all now works OK. However, do you know why HDMI control has to be switched on in order to see the OSD graphics from the LX83 ?

Thanks again.

 

[bigboss]

Yet again the 'Pioneer receivers are bright' myth is dispelled. As I've said before, it's usually spread by those trying to discredit the Pioneer, or those who've never heard a Pioneer receiver, and are just repeating what someone else has said. That 'someone' may be doing the same thing.

Well, not in my case. I found it bright with my MA Radius HD speakers. I never knew that Pioneer receivers are meant, or rumoured to be bright before the demo. I was a complete novice that time who did not frequent forums. I was keen on the Pioneer to match my TV's media box.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Of course, there will always be those who find the sound of a particular product 'bright. Some find Spendor or Arcam bright, but that doesn't necessarily make them bright sounding products per se.

 

[Anonymous]

The HDMI problem I reported earlier is still occuring. Basically, with HDMI control switched on (LX5090 & LX83) the LX83 goes into HDMI pass through standby (with picture and sound but amp off) as soon as a video source is shown on the TV screen and I have to manually swicth it back on again. I can stop this happening by switching HDMI control off on both devices but then I lose the LX83 OSD volume graphic on the TV screen when the volume is changed. I cannot find an option on either device to turn HDMI pass through on/off as I'm sure this is causing the problem.

Any ideas anyone, please ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I don't have a menu to hand for either a Pioneer TV or plasma, but there has to be something in a menu somewhere to turn it off. Have you tried the video or audio parameter button on the receiver's remote?