Yamaha Z7 to Pioneer LX83 - A Worthy Upgrade ?

[ellisdj]

The Z7 is superior to LX83. Demo both & decide if you think it's worth an upgrade. I think not. What speakers have you got?

Mate you are talking absolute tosh - and misleading the other guy badly - not trying to offend you but its true

The Z7 is not a patch on the LX83 i Have owned both and I would say the LX83 is about 50% better in every area, even down to the video upscaling

The Z7 was a very good amp, the best I had heard until I heard the LX83 - its in another league to lesser amps from Yamaha such as the 3900 and I think also in another league to the Z7.

The Z7 has a lot of power - but it comes across as lazy and muddled by comparison

Upgrading opamps will improve the sound no doubt - however it will still be short of the 83 in many areas

These are;

- Advanced MCCAC - is an exceptional auto cal system - it gets you very close to a reference curve and makes it very easy to tweak / adjust your system. It also integrates the bass exceptionally well.

-32 bit DAC, the DAC used in this amp is rarely mentioned but is very very good for films - not so great for music but you wouldnt want to use this dac for music anyways

- Excellent Stereo performance - its better than the Yamaha in Pure Direct for starters- us Stereo Mode with a good MCCAC setup and a good sub setup and its stunnign for music. It really shows up 90% of CDs, but at the same time you can listen to every CD. I used to find a lot of CD's un listen to able - Adelle 21 is a great example. However its actually not a bad sounding CD it just shows up a bad setup.

- Full Band Phase Correction - this technology ensures all the drivers from all the speakers play at the same time / its corrects the phase for all 5 + Speakers - if you listen to it off and on you can clearly hear what it does.

-Power this amp has serious power, rated 170w x 5 as much as Krell Power Amp - it goes so loud but never loses composure ever - this is likely due to all what I have mentioned above already as well as good quality amplification

- there are lots of silly things that all add up to make the overall package better - The Remote is exceptional, PQLS with a Pioneer BD works wonders for films OST, It Look the nuts, but none of these would make me buy it, it just makes the purchase that much better

Get the LX83 mate, it brings a film to life like nothing I have ever heard that includes the cinema, you wont be dissapointed once its setup properly - look into this I have posted loads on it!!

Big Boss you must have listened to it setup wrong maybe by someone who knows very little about its setup because even the auto setup that does everything for you will make the system sound better than the Z7 ever can. If its too forward for you a simple Xcurve adjustment changes all that

You are obviously not used to a reference curve mate - once your conscience lets your ears accept its better and that it is no question better sound then you will hear it. Being an owner of kit can make you stubborn in its defence, I have got many tshirts for that one and eaten my hat several times over the years.

The LX82 was rated better than the Z7 by WHF and the 83 was amp of year until the 85 come out. Since then Yamaha and Onkyo release their top line, still the Pioneer is top. This is all for a reason not sales hype.

I owned the Z7 for just over a year - great amp but with many flaws - the LX83 answered all of those flaws and more.

This is a good enough amp you to not consider an upgrade until there is a new format out and thats a rare to think about electronics, especially in sound

 

[bigboss]

I've never challenged your beliefs, & in the same way you have no right to challenge my own extensive personal demo experience. Sound is a personal preference, otherwise everyone would buy the Pioneer & not the Yamaha, right? I was offered a brilliant bundled offer with my Pioneer plasma, of a Pioneer AV receiver & blu ray player, but I didn't like the Pioneer with my speakers at all. I was keen on the Pioneer before the demo so that all my equipment matched aesthetically.

There's something known as system synergy. I did not like the combination of Monitor Audio speakers & Pioneer receivers. I don't care what the specs & others say, I trust my ears more than anything else. And, yes, during the demo, I played with the settings to get the best possible sound.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've never challenged your beliefs, & in the same way you have no right to challenge my own extensive personal demo experience. Sound is a personal preference, otherwise everyone would buy the Pioneer & not the Yamaha, right? I was offered a brilliant bundled offer with my Pioneer plasma, of a Pioneer AV receiver & blu ray player, but I didn't like the Pioneer with my speakers at all. I was keen on the Pioneer before the demo so that all my equipment matched aesthetically.

There's something known as system synergy. I did not like the combination of Monitor Audio speakers & Pioneer receivers. I don't care what the specs & others say, I trust my ears more than anything else. And, yes, during the demo, I played with the settings to get the best possible sound.

Well BB, if you don't know what your talking about, neither do I, as I don't like Pioneer amps either....not even the Susano.

 

[bigboss]

That was one monster of an amp wasn't it?

 

[ellisdj]

I am not talking about beliefs but your recommendation and statement that the Z7 is better than the LX83

You could say you prefer a Yamaha but to say its better is naive

I am an owner of both and The Pioneer 83 is a better amp than the Z7 by a country mile - its better in every department. My cousin has the Lx83 with Monitor Audio Apex speakers and I cant see whats not to like - you just need to get it setup right or use the options to tailor the sound to your exact liking.

X Curve on makes all the difference, as do other tweaks and adjustments I keep posting about

If you check your YPAO EQ I guarantee its tailing off your treble - I found it did this way too much and its bloody difficult to adjust it correctly. Early versions of Audessy do the same thing as well

YPAO is basic by comparison to MCCAC (used in both models) and you are stuck with the sound the Yamaha gives you

I also dont believe in synergy of systems - to me that is an excuse of one bit of kit maybe highlighting or reducing the best bit or the flaws in another bit of kit.

What you soon realise when you have played around with the LX83 and Advanced MCCAC is that your room is effecting your sound more than anythign else - Advanced MCCAC data then educates you on your system setup - then system synergy is irrelvant as you adjust the eq to get a flat response in your listening positon.

This is a flat reponse for any speakers and if you have a flat response / reference curve then you hear it how its supposed to be heard - surely that is the Best Sound?

 

[bigboss]

The competitor to the Pioneer LX83 from the Yamaha stable was the RX-V3900 & not its elder sibling, the Z7. That's what I meant when I said "superior". I did not use the word "better". There's a difference in the meanings, that's where you've misunderstood me.

Also, my speakers are Radius HD, not the Apex.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont see that mate - the Z7 was 2k upon release and the top of the Yamaha line (Z11 exempt) on top of the 3900 £1300 at release by tech radar

The LX83 was 2k upon release and was the top of the Pioneer range that year so thats the competition (susano excempt)

The Z7 stayed at the top of the Yamaha line for 2 years - the 3900 was a cheaper lesser model.

Similar to the way the Susano and Z11 are still the companies very top of their range years later (or was until recently)

 

[ellisdj]

If you read up on Class D amplification in the link posted earlier, you'll see the benefits of ICE amplification, but you'll hear a cleaner, sharper with a lower noise floor. It's almost like taking a photo with an old film camera - slightly soft round the edges, easy on the eyes. Then you take a pic with your new digital SLR....

An interesting Analogy. I'll guess there's only one way to find out, buy a digital camera and compare the two pictures to see which one I prefer !

I have just read both of these posts and think their interesting - its quite a good analogy but there is more to it.

To me they guy from Frank Harvey doesnt quite sum it fully right - the difference is more like going from an old film camera to a new digital slr image thats been edited much closer to perfection in Photoshop.

Thats a much closer analogy of the difference between the 2 amps I believe - I wonder if the guy from Frank Harvey would agree with that.

 

[bigboss]

Sorry I meant Yamaha 3067. Check Techradar's review where they mention Yamaha's competitor as the LX83. The 3067 is the successor to the 3900. Yamaha traditionally have been cheaper than the Pioneer.

 

[ellisdj]

- not heard that 1.

I thought it got good reviews - maybe it was a diff model as tech radar dont rate it that highly.

Its gets 4 starts like most Yamaha av amps in their reviews - they say its aquired taste against market leaders pioneer then onkyo

.

 

[bigboss]

As I said earlier, I don't care what the reviews say. I trust my ears more. Anyway, no point in arguing about it. You like the Pioneer & I prefer the Yamaha's warmth. That's it.

 

[ellisdj]

its the Yamaha 3010 WHF say is really good - your choice is your choice mate.

I dont think you would get the best from the pioneer with the radius speakers so if thats what you auditioned them with then maybe thats why you think what you do - the LX83 is capable of driving more but I think perfectly suited to satellites.

I just like the best mate - and its clear cut with av amps, and clear cut with Pioneer AV kit, pretty much.

Thats why their accolades are what they are.

I dont see how warmth is a good thing to associate with sound? It seems to suggest to me boredom

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it and you dont get a lot of that from that range of Yamahas.

I am not trying to argue with you - I am only stating the obvious

 

[Frank Harvey]

The name of "the guy from Frank Harvey" is in his sig....

 

[CnoEvil]

The name of "the guy from Frank Harvey" is in his sig....

I knew that.....Frank. >)

 

[bigboss]

its the Yamaha 3010 WHF say is really good - your choice is your choice mate.

I dont think you would get the best from the pioneer with the radius speakers so if thats what you auditioned them with then maybe thats why you think what you do - the LX83 is capable of driving more but I think perfectly suited to satellites.

I just like the best mate - and its clear cut with av amps, and clear cut with Pioneer AV kit, pretty much.

Thats why their accolades are what they are.

I dont see how warmth is a good thing to associate with sound? It seems to suggest to me boredom

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it and you dont get a lot of that from that range of Yamahas.

I am not trying to argue with you - I am only stating the obvious

I prefer the warmth & the mellow. Yamaha's are known to be musical. They're certainly not inaccurate or imprecise They're brilliant with movies as well. I found the Pioneer to be bright. The Radius HD may not bring the best out of the Pioneer, that's why it's not suited to my requirements.

What suggests boredom to you is actually what I prefer. And what's exciting to you is actually bright to my taste. See, I told you; your sonic preferences are different to mine

I don't bother myself too much with the star ratings of the reviews. It's hardly mentioned in the reviews what speakers they've been tested with. I only take it as a guide to shortlist my audition, & I buy what's best suited to me.

 

[rana_kirti]

i hope my question is within the framework of this thread & my apologies if not but as the Yamaha 3067 & 3010 etc are being discussed i'm compelled to ask...

Is it fair/correct to say that the A3010 sounds identical to the V3067 ? I mean other than the 2 extra amps what is the difference in sound between these two ?

We have some dealer members here and i'm sure they have had a chance to hear/demo both. Can they tell the sonic differences between the V3067 and A3010....?

Regards,

Rana.

 

[ellisdj]

its the Yamaha 3010 WHF say is really good - your choice is your choice mate.

I dont think you would get the best from the pioneer with the radius speakers so if thats what you auditioned them with then maybe thats why you think what you do - the LX83 is capable of driving more but I think perfectly suited to satellites.

I just like the best mate - and its clear cut with av amps, and clear cut with Pioneer AV kit, pretty much.

Thats why their accolades are what they are.

I dont see how warmth is a good thing to associate with sound? It seems to suggest to me boredom

How about accuracy, precision, excitment, involving, alive, musicality, deep, thrilling, power could listen all day never tire and never bore - thats more like it and you dont get a lot of that from that range of Yamahas.

I am not trying to argue with you - I am only stating the obvious

I prefer the warmth & the mellow. Yamaha's are known to be musical. They're certainly not inaccurate or imprecise They're brilliant with movies as well. I found the Pioneer to be bright. The Radius HD may not bring the best out of the Pioneer, that's why it's not suited to my requirements.

What suggests boredom to you is actually what I prefer. And what's exciting to you is actually bright to my taste. See, I told you; your sonic preferences are different to mine

I don't bother myself too much with the star ratings of the reviews. It's hardly mentioned in the reviews what speakers they've been tested with. I only take it as a guide to shortlist my audition, & I buy what's best suited to me.

I agree with you about the reviews in a sense you dont get the full picture i.e. speakers used etc, but thats irrelevant when every review published says the same thing - some are actually very indepth reviews. These are people that get to play with a lot of kit some of it is clearly standout

To ignore them all is to be naive and also to ignore reviews is to criticise the very site you have posted 4000 times on?

To say the Pioneer sound is bright is also naive -Never once is it reviewed as bright

I admit the auto cal sets some of the upper mid range freqs a touch high - however with basic knowledge thats easily adjusted and then with xcurrve you remove the slight edginess to the sound and what you get at the end is simply amazing.

To the point where it puts this amp in another league to that range of Yamahas as you get eveything from it - more than enough warmth that you might want. Its also far more musical than the Yamaha. As I have said before warmth is a term to disguise the fact that its lacking in areas - I cant see the attraction in that characterisitc in an AV amp or in sound in general??

Then again Reference is not always preference - but its still reference

The points you raised are why I bought my Z7 - however after hearing the Pioneer for 5 minutes its clear cut that its head and shoulders better. I sold my Z7 and bought the LX83 straight away and doubt I will buy another amp now until there is a new format.

It drives my B&W 805 front 3 really well it gives them life I didnt know they had - it will do the same to all speakers and anyone who says its bright has it setup wrong - regardless of speakers

On the point of speakers - the 805 are super revealing and give you exactly what you give them - so I have onwed and fully tested the Yamaha Z7 and while it was good and opened my eyes to what a good AV amp can do its the LX83 thats openened my eyes to so much more.

What a great AV amp can do - what you a great Setup / System in Advanced MCCAC allows you to do - that can give you an overall sound that it does - the thing is seriously good and back the point of the debate - Yes Its worth the Investment over the Z7

* apologies for not naming the worker within Frank Harvery hifi - no offense intended

 

[bigboss]

The reviewers themselves insist on demoing the kit before purchase, it does not mean you're ignoring the reviews. Reviews should be used to shortlist your equipment for a demo, not blindly purchase the award winner.

Anyway, I'm out of this debate now. I don't have to explain anymore why I prefer the Yamaha over the Pioneer. You're happy with your Pioneer & I'm happy with my Yamaha. End of.

 

[ric71]

Different horses for courses. I prefer the the Anthem room correction software. Don't own one as love my ARCAM sound even though it has a very basic room eq.

 

[ellisdj]

Everyone is entitleted to their opinion of preference - however if advising someone its best to be honest depsite preference.

The op asked is the Pioneer worth the upgrade over the Z7 - I asked the same question at the time and was greeted with positive answers. I demo'd for myself and within 5 minutes or probably less the answer was clear.

I demo'd it on lesser speakers and it strill blew away my Z7 on much better speakers

Since then I have played with the 83 along with my cousin who has one with MA Apex and we have worked out how to get the best from it.

I got a demo of the Arcam AVR600 before I bought it as well - and it must have been setup badly it was not that impressive at all which is a shame as I would have loved to have heard it going properly. They didnt even have a cd player wired into it WTF?? And that was within a very well known store / chain.

If you cant get a good demo, which I cant you have to base purchase decisions off forums and reviews I think 90% of people will do this anyways now days - especially with stores closing etc

If your speakers are half decent mate, as is the rest of your kit then you will love the LX83 more than you have loved your Z7 - in every area of its performance, if you dont you will be able to sell it easy. I doubt you will be selling it anytime soon

You are obviously thinking there is more to come from the sound of your kit otherwise why would you be considering the upgrade?

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you for all the very informative additional posts.

Regretably, the day after my last post I was informed that I had a larger than expected tax bill to pay and so I had to hold back on the purchase of the LX83. Hopefully, I will have another opportunity to purchase one (or similar) later in the year and will still give Pioneer serious consideration as an upgrade option to the Z7.

Unfortunately I live miles away from a decent HiFi store and I'm therefore unable to audition equipment prior to purchase. Consequently, buying second hand is always my prefered option as I stand less to lose should I not find the kit to my liking.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not wanting to create another heated debate but, funds permitting, would a Pioneer SC-LX75 or Yamaha Aventage RX-A2010 be a more worthwhile upgrade consideration than the LX83 ?

Thank You

 

[Frank Harvey]

Stick with your 83

 

[Anonymous]

Stick with your 83

I currently have a Z7 and almost bought an LX83 but unfortunately didn't get it in the end due to cashflow. However, things should be different in a months time so I was considering either the LX75 or RX-A2010 instead !

Maybe I should forget about changing and just keep the Z7 :?

 

[Anonymous]

Dave, iv just sold my Yamaha z7 and I'm looking to possibly upgrade to your pairing of the rotel/onkyo 5509 is it really a big upgrade from the z7? Is the eq really as good as people are saying?because that is one of the main attractions for me,I don't think my room sounds that great. Lastly will the power consumption be higher with the rotel/onkyo? Sorry to jump in on this thread.