Will a power amp find missing bass lines?

[jas0_0]

Hi all,

First can I just say thanks to everyone who has helped me on here over the past few months - your advice has been much appreciated.

I recently bought some second hand Proac Response 1SCs, and I'm running them from a Linn Majik DSi pre and, temporarily, a Cyrus 8XPD set to 'AV Direct' power amp only mode. With most music this setup sounds fantastic. However, my previous speakers were Mission 773e floorstanders and, with the Proacs, deeper basslines that were there with the Missions just aren't there at all.

I realise you can't cheat physics. The Missions are MUCH bigger than the Proacs, but could lack of amp power also be part of my problem? Proac claims the 1SCs go to 38 Hz, and rate them as 86dB, though I've read that in reality they might be closer to 84dB. Could the Cyrus' 70 WPC be struggling to get the most out of them?

I plan to replace the Cyrus with a power amp. Could more power bring back some of the lost depths? Or do I just have to give up my techno habit?

J

 

[Gazzip]

Is it missing or just better? The Proacs are a much better loudspeaker than the Missions, and you may just be experiencing less LF bloom from the boxes and a flatter response. IMO a new power amp is not the answer here.

 

[jas0_0]

Thanks Gazzip - I don't think it was bloom I was hearing from the Missions. It's not the amount or tone of the bass that's the problem, just the extension. They're deep bass notes I can also hear on headphones, but they're just not there at all with the Proacs.

 

[gasolin]

Missions go down to 50hz, the spec say proac goes down to 38hz (+/- 3db)

Here is the frequency responce of the proace measured by sterophile http://www.stereophile.com/content/proac-response-one-sc-loudspeaker-measurements#UWMiz92ZIlZqh3yv.97

 

[drummerman]

Why would you choose tiny, low efficiency standmounts with a 'techno habit'??

 

[Frank Harvey]

If you want to keep the ProAcs, I'd say you're probably going to have to look at a sub to bring out those lower notes. Nothing crazy, just something like an SVS SB1000 should do the trick. Use it subtlely and it'll blend well and give you back what you're missing, and probably a little bit more too.

I would say though that I think the Cyrus will be struggling with the 1SCs. A better power amp will firm up the bass, and I have found in the past that demanding little speakers benefit greatly from more/better power. sometimes it can help extention, but don't expect anything night and day in this respect.

 

[jas0_0]

Why would you choose tiny, low efficiency standmounts with a 'techno habit'??

Haha - good question. Lack of space is one thing. It's also a waning techno habit and I now mainly listen to jazz, folk and classical. Just want to relive my youth every now and then...

 

[jas0_0]

Missions go down to 50hz, the spec say proac goes down to 38hz (+/- 3db)

Here is the frequency responce of the proace measured by sterophile http://www.stereophile.com/content/proac-response-one-sc-loudspeaker-measurements#UWMiz92ZIlZqh3yv.97

Thanks for this. If my eyes (and reading of log scales) are up to it, Stereophile's measurements would put the Proacs closer to 58hz at -3dB? Did Proac's marketing dept get a bit carried away?

 

[jas0_0]

If you want to keep the ProAcs, I'd say you're probably going to have to look at a sub to bring out those lower notes. Nothing crazy, just something like an SVS SB1000 should do the trick. Use it subtlely and it'll blend well and give you back what you're missing, and probably a little bit more too.

I would say though that I think the Cyrus will be struggling with the 1SCs. A better power amp will firm up the bass, and I have found in the past that demanding little speakers benefit greatly from more/better power. sometimes it can help extention, but don't expect anything night and day in this respect.

Thanks David - a sub could work actually. And the SVS you recommend doesn't look like it'll break the bank. I will also look at a power amp. Is there anything you recommend? A second hand Linn Akurate 2200 seems the obvious choice, though that's 'only' 100 watts. I was also looking at the Cyrus Stereo 200 and have heard great things about the Nord One amps. Is there anything you've had good experience of?

 

[DocG]

I will also look at a power amp. Is there anything you recommend? A second hand Linn Akurate 2200 seems the obvious choice, though that's 'only' 100 watts. I was also looking at the Cyrus Stereo 200 and have heard great things about the Nord One amps. Is there anything you've had good experience of?

If a Nord is within budget, I wouldn't hesitate to give it a try; it's an awful lot of clean power in a smallish box...

 

[drummerman]

I will also look at a power amp.  Is there anything you recommend?  A second hand Linn Akurate 2200 seems the obvious choice, though that's 'only' 100 watts.  I was also looking at the Cyrus Stereo 200 and have heard great things about the Nord One amps.  Is there anything you've had good experience of?

If a Nord is within budget, I wouldn't hesitate to give it a try; it's an awful lot of clean power in a smallish box...

+1

I don't think you can get more power for your money other than cheaply made Chinese 'semi-pro' stuff.

Hypex are used by several high end brands, many much more expensive than Nord.

One example is the BelCanto Black series. Yours for a mere £50k or so.

The cyrus amps also have good reviews but probably come in more expensive?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thanks David - a sub could work actually. And the SVS you recommend doesn't look like it'll break the bank. I will also look at a power amp. Is there anything you recommend? A second hand Linn Akurate 2200 seems the obvious choice, though that's 'only' 100 watts. I was also looking at the Cyrus Stereo 200 and have heard great things about the Nord One amps. Is there anything you've had good experience of?

I can't speak for the Linn I'm afraid, but with ProAcs characteristic overtones, I'd try and stick with fairly neutral amplifiers. Primare will be worth looking at, and I know ProAc have used them in the past at shows. The Cyrus 200 would also be an option. Id just avoid "colourful" amplifiers.

 

[Electro]

I will also look at a power amp. Is there anything you recommend? A second hand Linn Akurate 2200 seems the obvious choice, though that's 'only' 100 watts. I was also looking at the Cyrus Stereo 200 and have heard great things about the Nord One amps. Is there anything you've had good experience of?

If a Nord is within budget, I wouldn't hesitate to give it a try; it's an awful lot of clean power in a smallish box...

+1

I don't think you can get more power for your money other than cheaply made Chinese 'semi-pro' stuff.

Hypex are used by several high end brands, many much more expensive than Nord.

One example is the BelCanto Black series. Yours for a mere £50k or so.

The cyrus amps also have good reviews but probably come in more expensive?

+2 *smile*

https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/

 

[jas0_0]

Thanks everyone. One last question, the sticker on the back of the Proacs says recommended amplifier 25-100 watts nominal - by going for a high powered 150+ watt amp, I'm not going to damage the speakers am I?

 

[gasolin]

Thanks everyone. One last question, the sticker on the back of the Proacs says recommended amplifier 25-100 watts nominal - by going for a high powered 150+ watt amp, I'm not going to damage the speakers am I?

NO

As long as the sound doesn't distort you're fine, only focus on distortion when playing loud,if you happen to get smoke out of the speakers you might wanna turn down the volume or check if you're ears are bleeding (since you play really loud if smoke comes out of the speakers)

 

[Electro]

Thanks everyone. One last question, the sticker on the back of the Proacs says recommended amplifier 25-100 watts nominal - by going for a high powered 150+ watt amp, I'm not going to damage the speakers am I?

No it's safer for the speakers to have a large reserve of power rather than too little power to drive the speakers properly.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi jas0_0

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest. I first heard them at the Heathrow Show in 1997 on the end if some huge Audio Research Pre/Powers. I wanted a pair but couldn't afford them so settled on Tablette 50 Signature in Ebony finish instead.

Anyway, a power amp and a sub (the latter imo probably the ultimate main component) is what I'd also recommend. The discontinued NAD C270 on the used market as this should nicely fill out the 1SC's and then add a smallish fast high quality sub such as JL Audio's Dominion d-108 to keep up with the 1SC's and fill in the gap.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MajorFubar]

Seems to me like a cross between the speakers not producing a sound you're accustomed to and the speakers being influenced by other factors in your room.

If you have some facility to stream YouTube videos to your hifi, try this test from your regular seating position and notice at which frequencies you begin to hear bass. Then move around the room and notice if there is any perceivable difference to bass extension depending on where you sit or stand.

 

[jas0_0]

NO

As long as the sound doesn't distort you're fine, only focus on distortion when playing loud,if you happen to get smoke out of the speakers you might wanna turn down the volume or check if you're ears are bleeding (since you play really loud if smoke comes out of the speakers)

Ha thanks - never quite managed ear bleed. Though still have a slight ringing from some big nights out in my twenties...

 

[jas0_0]

No it's safer for the speakers to have a large reserve of power rather than too little power to drive the speakers properly.

Thanks - good to know. This is building a strong case for the power amp.

 

[jas0_0]

Hi jas0_0

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest. I first heard them at the Heathrow Show in 1997 on the end if some huge Audio Research Pre/Powers. I wanted a pair but couldn't afford them so settled on Tablette 50 Signature in Ebony finish instead.

Anyway, a power amp and a sub (the latter imo probably the ultimate main component) is what I'd also recommend. The discontinued NAD C270 on the used market as this should nicely fill out the 1SC's and then add a smallish fast high quality sub such as JL Audio's Dominion d-108 to keep up with the 1SC's and fill in the gap.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thanks Rick - I'm really loving the Proacs - will have a look at the NAD and JL

 

[gasolin]

Hi jas0_0

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest. I first heard them at the Heathrow Show in 1997 on the end if some huge Audio Research Pre/Powers. I wanted a pair but couldn't afford them so settled on Tablette 50 Signature in Ebony finish instead.

Anyway, a power amp and a sub (the latter imo probably the ultimate main component) is what I'd also recommend. The discontinued NAD C270 on the used market as this should nicely fill out the 1SC's and then add a smallish fast high quality sub such as JL Audio's Dominion d-108 to keep up with the 1SC's and fill in the gap.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest.

I wouldn't at all use a Nad C270 with these speakers, One of Proac's finest.

Nad makes good amps but a Nad C270 doesn't come close to being good enought to use with the proac, simply because it doesn't sound good enought, nad M amp would be better or one of the big Hegel,Rega,Naim, electrocompaniet,vincent or some brand i don't know with 100 watt or more pr channel in 8ohm

Most nad amps are good at playing loud music with big beefy jbl's or big Cervin Vega's, more a party amp for playing loud rock n roll, edm rather than a sophisticated high perfomance (sound quality) amp that is as good for original jazz records from the 50's on a vintage turntable as well as modern loud elecktronic music from spotify with small bookshelf speakers as well as big 1 meter + tall speakers with 2x2 big woofers, perfect for rock music at ear bleeding levels and still sound beautiful

 

[jas0_0]

Seems to me like a cross between the speakers not producing a sound you're accustomed to and the speakers being influenced by other factors in your room.

If you have some facility to stream YouTube videos to your hifi, try this test from your regular seating position and notice at which frequencies you begin to hear bass. Then move around the room and notice if there is any perceivable difference to bass extension depending on where you sit or stand.

That test was a great suggestion. Thanks so much. I used it to find out what was booming and what was lacking in my room, then tweaked the sound using Linn's Space Optimisation software. There was bass at 30Hz, but then a big dip between around 35 to 45 Hz. I've been able to correct this to some extent. Music is now sounding more like I'd expect it to. And the Proacs are revealing bass melodies I've not heard before - the Missions were muddled by comparison.

I will still investigate a power amp as comments here suggest it will be worth it, but this has helped a lot, thanks. The system is now sounding fantastic - much fuller than before.

 

[MajorFubar]

That test was a great suggestion. Thanks so much. I used it to find out what was booming and what was lacking in my room, then tweaked the sound using Linn's Space Optimisation software. There was bass at 30Hz, but then a big dip between around 35 to 45 Hz. I've been able to correct this to some extent. Music is now sounding more like I'd expect it to. And the Proacs are revealing bass melodies I've not heard before - the Missions were muddled by comparison.

I will still investigate a power amp as comments here suggest it will be worth it, but this has helped a lot, thanks. The system is now sounding fantastic - much fuller than before.

Glad it helped. Almost certainly you are experiencing a degree of wavelength cancellation at certain frequencies caused by your room, to be honest, same as most of us to some degree, except for those fortunate enough to have a dedicated treated room. This is where 'room correction' EQ can come into its own, unless you have a room like mine where the hifi sounds different depending on whether you sit on the sofa or the chair, so there wouldn't be any ideal setting.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi jas0_0

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest. I first heard them at the Heathrow Show in 1997 on the end if some huge Audio Research Pre/Powers. I wanted a pair but couldn't afford them so settled on Tablette 50 Signature in Ebony finish instead.

Anyway, a power amp and a sub (the latter imo probably the ultimate main component) is what I'd also recommend. The discontinued NAD C270 on the used market as this should nicely fill out the 1SC's and then add a smallish fast high quality sub such as JL Audio's Dominion d-108 to keep up with the 1SC's and fill in the gap.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Firstly the 1SC's are excellent speakers. One of Proac's finest.

I wouldn't at all use a Nad C270 with these speakers, One of Proac's finest.

Nad makes good amps but a Nad C270 doesn't come close to being good enought to use with the proac, simply because it doesn't sound good enought, nad M amp would be better or one of the big Hegel,Rega,Naim, electrocompaniet,vincent or some brand i don't know with 100 watt or more pr channel in 8ohm

Most nad amps are good at playing loud music with big beefy jbl's or big Cervin Vega's, more a party amp for playing loud rock n roll, edm rather than a sophisticated high perfomance (sound quality) amp that is as good for original jazz records from the 50's on a vintage turntable as well as modern loud elecktronic music from spotify with small bookshelf speakers as well as big 1 meter + tall speakers with 2x2 big woofers, perfect for rock music at ear bleeding levels and still sound beautiful

Hi gasolin

But then again from the same range i've heard Response 2.5's and Response 3.8's sounding good with a C270. Therefore i think that in comparison Response 1SC's should feel like a walk in the park for the C270.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft