Why is there so much compromised and so little losless music on the internet?

[gasolin]

I have a nuforce usb cable a new Nad d3020 , new van den hul clearwater,isoacoustics stands and some new Boston A26.

All in all a pretty good system, i listen to some music today (not through my media player) and it sounded a bit dull, a lack of clarity and details in the high frequency, youtube at 720p some lower and spotify at 320kbps, so i got my self something in Denmark called wimp hifi, which is spotify losless(now i can listen to music i donn't have in losless quality), then the top got much clearer and more details, even when i started to watch some danish film in 1000kbit/s it sounded very good and also had more of the clearity and open sound that i often miss using youtube and spotify.

Why is there so much compromised music and so little losless on the internet?

Why are we forced to listen to music on the internet that are fare from losless, that dosn't let us experience how music can sound when it's losless?

 

[bigboss]

I find it interesting that your first equipment you describe is a USB cable and not the amplifier or speakers!!

Few points:

1) The vast majority of the population doesn't care about lossless music. A lot of them don't even know about it!

2) Popularity of MP3 music is mainly down to limited hard drive capacity and expensive memory. Also, a lot of today's popular music doesn't have the detail of classical music.

3) Film sound is actually encoded at a much higher bitrate than 1000Kbps (or 1Mbps). Even LPCM stereo is 2.3Mbps, and 7.1 sound in an HD codec goes up to 27.7Mbps.

 

[kmlav]

The sort of stuff spotify and the like put out is ok if you are doing something and just want music in the background. It's cheap easy and caters for the mass market. I think of it like a radio station where you choose your own music. Ultimately is all about the right product for the right situation and in the same way that a McDonald burger is ok to eat of your lap in a car park you would not want it served to you in a Michelin stared restaurant. Doing some DIY wack spotify on - on the sofa listening to music wack your hi res stuff on.

Why is there so much of it is just down to where the money is as ou are not going to make a huge amount of cash appealing to the decernng few. But in the words of good old bob "the times they are a changin" and there is more and more decent downloads becoming available. With something like spotify why not offer varying levels of quality chosen by the consumer ?

 

[andyjm]

Even LPCM stereo is 2.3Mbps, and 7.1 sound in an HD codec goes up to 27.7Mbps.

DVD stereo audio linear pulse code modulation (LPCM) is I believe 16 bits, 48KHz sample rate. Which gives 16 x 2 x 48,000 = 1.536 Mb/s. Where did you get 2.3Mb/s from?

 

[andyjm]

Why is there so much compromised music and so little losless on the internet?

The oldest reason there is, money.

Higher bit rates mean bigger files and more storage. While storage is now so cheap that for home use you may think 'who cares', but at the margin if you were the boss of Amazon or iTunes, controlling the cost of your server farms would be a key part of your business. Keeping the file size down and download times short would be high on their list of things to boost their profits.

Then of course there are the record companies who are also keen to limit resolution, then they can sell the same piece of music over and over again. First as a single, then as an LP, then a tape, then an MP3 file, then 'CD quality' then as HiRes. Their back catalogue just keeps on giving.

If your customers don't care - what would you do?

 

[bigboss]

Even LPCM stereo is 2.3Mbps, and 7.1 sound in an HD codec goes up to 27.7Mbps.

DVD stereo audio linear pulse code modulation (LPCM) is I believe 16 bits, 48KHz sample rate. Which gives 16 x 2 x 48,000 = 1.536 Mb/s. Where did you get 2.3Mb/s from?

It can go up to 24 bits in case of blu ray discs.

Just an example:

http://www.theartsshelf.com/2014/01/25/latest-review-the-epic-of-everest-dual-format-edition-bfi/

Audio: Disc 1: DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 (48kHz) (2.4Mbps) (Simon Fisher Turner Score) | LPCM 2.0 Stereo Audio (48kHz / 24-bit) (2.3Mbps) (Simon Fisher Turner Score) | LPCM 2.0 Audio (96kHz / 24-bit) (4.6 Mbps) (Reconstructed 1924 Score)

http://www.soundadviceblog.com/blu-ray-audio-explained/

 

[matthewpiano]

Try Qobuz Hi-Fi. It is an alternative to Spotify and if you go for their top 'Hi-Fi' package you get everything streamed in FLAC. Sound quality is absolutely superb and well worth the £20 a month subscription fee.

 

[gasolin]

I find it interesting that your first equipment you describe is a USB cable and not the amplifier or speakers!!

Few points:

1) The vast majority of the population doesn't care about lossless music. A lot of them don't even know about it!

2) Popularity of MP3 music is mainly down to limited hard drive capacity and expensive memory. Also, a lot of today's popular music doesn't have the detail of classical music.

3) Film sound is actually encoded at a much higher bitrate than 1000Kbps (or 1Mbps). Even LPCM stereo is 2.3Mbps, and 7.1 sound in an HD codec goes up to 27.7Mbps.

My sound starts from my pc, 1000kbs films,series,soap operas is from the day where no one tv didn't showed movies in hd or full hd, something like 572 p i think the standard was back in the old day where the first plasma tv's cost the same as a small car

 

[bigboss]

That's fine. The thread was about lossless music, hence my comment. 1000Kbps is still compressed and not lossless.

 

[gasolin]

That's fine. The thread was about lossless music, hence my comment. 1000Kbps is still compressed and not lossless.

It's not hd movies those i se in 1000kbps, often youtube video's in hd or full hd isn't real hd,full hd..

compromised music on a good hifi is like watching a 360-480p movie on a good and big screen, it's okay if its not something important, at best quality theres a huge difference.

Wonder how many would buy a blueray movie over a dvd if the price is the same?

If people could buy losless music for the same price as mp3 would they buy it? Would they think i don't know if my mp3 play can play losless?

Why even care about losless when most music today is made by people who just want to play it on the radio,mp 3 players or as loud as possible, on youtube, spotify at 320kbps, played on an iphone through a cheap dock station or just some creative,logitech pc speakers,headphones, where sound quality is a rare thing, almost to the point where it only was a commen thing (as mp 3 are today) before the time when the cd was released back in the early 80's where speakers where as big as refrigerators, even cheap "big" speakers could play bass like most speakers today can't because of the WAF.

Also think most classic music has better sound quality then most pop,rock music, why's that?

 

[lpv]

Today's pop is poorest recorded music ever but I only know that as I've read that on one of the hifi forums and then had a listen to some commercial radio and bang! really sounds bad.. Badly recorded music doesn't hit me as jazz and all music I'm interested in is mastered & recorded well.

Wimp is good ( better than Qobuz) cheaper and with 23milion library.

Not sure exactly what you mean by the lack of lossless music on internet.. you've got lossless CD quality downloads on sites like bleep, bandcamp.. all sorts of HD downloads so plenty to choose from.

I honestly would like to invite you to my place and play you some premium Spotify next to CD quality download on my system and if you can tell the difference in AB test then I'll pay for dinner :cheers:

 

[lpv]

double post

 

[gasolin]

All these losless music i often had to pay for each cd, wimp is something like 26€ every month and losless(small price to get acess to 20-25 million losless songs), in denmark one double cd or 2 cd's often costs the same, music from the libary is free to take home and listen to but you have to remember to return it,you can't rip it and not all music is available.

Phones are able to have 32-64 gb of space and extra 32-64 gb, that's not enough for 20-25 million losless songs, that has to be recuced alot in sound quality if you want to choose between 20-25 million songs, with higher and higher internet speeds it gets more easy to get access to losless music providers like wimp hifi.

Wimp hifi is so fare the only one i know of that offers losless music (i guess i have to use wimp hifi if i want to listen to other danish music then aqua,safri duo, laid back)

 

[T1mb0]

Try Qobuz Hi-Fi. It is an alternative to Spotify and if you go for their top 'Hi-Fi' package you get everything streamed in FLAC. Sound quality is absolutely superb and well worth the £20 a month subscription fee.

Agreed - Qobuz is excellent and a noticeable improvment on Spotify quality. Seems to have nearly everything that Spotify does and sometimes things Spotiffy doesn't.

One day I will cancel my Spotify subscription and run just Qobuz hifi.

 

[daveloc]

The answer to your question is actually "the inability to defer gratification"

When computer-based music playback first appeared, storage capacities were limited, so very high levels of compression, typically MP3@128kbps, i.e., under 10% of CD's basic data rate, were chosen for both download and storage, with actual data and sound quality loss. I did some tests with an early version of iTunes (Mac OS9!), and concluded that the loss of sound quality, even at 192kbps, was so audible it wasn't worth going further at the time.

However, most people took the view "I want it all, I want it now" -- Anita Dobson (apparently). And of course, once MP3 was widely adopted, every playback device on Earth had to support it for backwards-compatibility.

In due course, data storage capacities rose, Lossless compression algorithms arrived, and I did some more experiments, using the Smart playlist feature of iTunes on an Apple Lossless library to create a group frequency distribution by bandwidth and do some basic stats. The average data rate was now about 850kbps, or around 6x the original standard MP3 rate.

Storage prices for a given volume of data have historically halved roughly every 18 months. So if the human race had been prepared to wait a mere 4 years extra before shifting from disc to computer, there would have been no need for lossy compression, no loss of sound quality, and no backwards-compatibility issue today.

 

[matthewpiano]

Try Qobuz Hi-Fi. It is an alternative to Spotify and if you go for their top 'Hi-Fi' package you get everything streamed in FLAC. Sound quality is absolutely superb and well worth the £20 a month subscription fee.

Agreed - Qobuz is excellent and a noticeable improvment on Spotify quality. Seems to have nearly everything that Spotify does and sometimes things Spotiffy doesn't.

One day I will cancel my Spotify subscription and run just Qobuz hifi.

I've cancelled Spotify now, although if I ever end up with another streaming product in my main system I may have to reconsider as Spotify is the one they all seem to support.

 

[lpv]

All these losless music i often had to pay for each cd, wimp is something like 26€ every month and losless(small price to get acess to 20-25 million losless songs), in denmark one double cd or 2 cd's often costs the same, music from the libary is free to take home and listen to but you have to remember to return it,you can't rip it and not all music is available.

Phones are able to have 32-64 gb of space and extra 32-64 gb, that's not enough for 20-25 million losless songs, that has to be recuced alot in sound quality if you want to choose between 20-25 million songs, with higher and higher internet speeds it gets more easy to get access to losless music providers like wimp hifi.

Wimp hifi is so fare the only one i know of that offers losless music (i guess i have to use wimp hifi if i want to listen to other danish music then aqua,safri duo, laid back)

Did you simply want to advert/ recommend WIMP to us?

 

[matthewpiano]

Just had a look at the WiMP website. Currently unavailable in the UK.

 

[tino]

There is pleanty of lossless music on the internet ... they're called CDs. They do take a couple of days to stream into your home via the postal system. Regarding oinline streaming services and internet radio I am happy to accept a quality limitation as trade-off for the convenience and variety of music on offer. There's plenty of 192kbps and more radio stations that seem OK soundwise ... not strictly hifi but more than acceptable.

 

[gasolin]

All these losless music i often had to pay for each cd, wimp is something like 26€ every month and losless(small price to get acess to 20-25 million losless songs), in denmark one double cd or 2 cd's often costs the same, music from the libary is free to take home and listen to but you have to remember to return it,you can't rip it and not all music is available.

Phones are able to have 32-64 gb of space and extra 32-64 gb, that's not enough for 20-25 million losless songs, that has to be recuced alot in sound quality if you want to choose between 20-25 million songs, with higher and higher internet speeds it gets more easy to get access to losless music providers like wimp hifi.

Wimp hifi is so fare the only one i know of that offers losless music (i guess i have to use wimp hifi if i want to listen to other danish music then aqua,safri duo, laid back)

Did you simply want to advert/ recommend WIMP to us?

No, the only losless music streaming service i know of that i can use i denmark is wimp hifi(do like alot of danish music), just wondering why wimp hifi is the only losless streaming option i have,why dosn't spotify have losless?,Why this limited of music streaming service with the best sound quality, don't they use a cd,/someting losless when the rip it in either 192kbps or 320kbps? also have to pay what wimp hifi costs because there isn't any alternative, youtube can sound terrible and spotify is only 320kbps.

 

[pauln]

There is pleanty of lossless music on the internet ... they're called CDs. They do take a couple of days to stream into your home via the postal system. Regarding oinline streaming services and internet radio I am happy to accept a quality limitation as trade-off for the convenience and variety of music on offer. There's plenty of 192kbps and more radio stations that seem OK soundwise ... not strictly hifi but more than acceptable.

:clap:

 

[gasolin]

There is pleanty of lossless music on the internet ... they're called CDs. They do take a couple of days to stream into your home via the postal system. Regarding oinline streaming services and internet radio I am happy to accept a quality limitation as trade-off for the convenience and variety of music on offer. There's plenty of 192kbps and more radio stations that seem OK soundwise ... not strictly hifi but more than acceptable.

That's only okay for background music, when you are working,in a store,with a lot of background noise.

I do like to have the best sound all the time, i don't mind watching saturday night live, david letterman in normal quality , but when i rent or buy a movie i want it to look and sound as good as possible even when i only have a 2.1 sound system , like a pc game like it to look as good as possible i can't in only hd unless its an old game

 

[lpv]

All these losless music i often had to pay for each cd, wimp is something like 26€ every month and losless(small price to get acess to 20-25 million losless songs), in denmark one double cd or 2 cd's often costs the same, music from the libary is free to take home and listen to but you have to remember to return it,you can't rip it and not all music is available.

Phones are able to have 32-64 gb of space and extra 32-64 gb, that's not enough for 20-25 million losless songs, that has to be recuced alot in sound quality if you want to choose between 20-25 million songs, with higher and higher internet speeds it gets more easy to get access to losless music providers like wimp hifi.

Wimp hifi is so fare the only one i know of that offers losless music (i guess i have to use wimp hifi if i want to listen to other danish music then aqua,safri duo, laid back)

Did you simply want to advert/ recommend WIMP to us?

No, the only losless music streaming service i know of that i can use i denmark is wimp hifi(do like alot of danish music), just wondering why wimp hifi is the only losless streaming option i have,why dosn't spotify have losless?,Why this limited of music streaming service with the best sound quality, don't they use a cd,/someting losless when the rip it in either 192kbps or 320kbps? also have to pay what wimp hifi costs because there isn't any alternative, youtube can sound terrible and spotify is only 320kbps.

Fair enough... thought your looking for 'lossless on internet' and not only lossless streaming.

Do you really can hear THAT much difference between Spotify premium and Wimp HIFI?

 

[Broner]

@Gasolin Are you sure you can hear the difference between 320 kbps and lossless, since you have appear to have a pretty firm opinion on the matter of what would be suitable quality under which circumstances.

 

[gasolin]

There is pleanty of lossless music on the internet ... they're called CDs. They do take a couple of days to stream into your home via the postal system. Regarding oinline streaming services and internet radio I am happy to accept a quality limitation as trade-off for the convenience and variety of music on offer. There's plenty of 192kbps and more radio stations that seem OK soundwise ... not strictly hifi but more than acceptable.

They are not for free ;-)

I can easy understand why people that have a much more expensive hifi system then i have refuses to play mp 3 , even if it sounds better then when i play losless music.

Mp 3 is like french fries without salt and ketchup or just a burger and a bun, no salt,no pepper, not ketchup,no onions no chilli no cheese.

Have a 100.000£ hifi system and it will always sound like ...... if you play mp3, a cheap but good system can sound for the money incredible, if you only play losless music