Which upscaler to use....(source, amp or TV)?

[jase fox]

professorhat:
jase fox:So how do you get an amp to say just upscale SKY HD ? I use the upscaler in my bluray player & at the moment i use my plasmas upscaler for SKYHD so if i wanted my amp to "just" do the scaleing for sky HD how would i go on about it?

Jase, assuming your Sky HD box is connected into your amp, set your amp to upscale to 1080p (or if it has an Auto setting, set it to this). This way, if you set your Blu-Ray to output at 1080p, this signal will just pass through the amp undisturbed as it is already at the desired resolution. If you then set your Sky HD player to 576p / 576i (whichever it has - see the discussion above!), when this reaches the amp, the amp will upscale this as it is not at the required resolution.

I see were your coming from Prof & yes my Sky HD is connected into my amp & it does have an auto setting, so it sounds straight forward now, i shall go & try it out.

Thanks alot Prof !

 

[jase fox]

aliEnRIK:
jase fox:So how do you get an amp to say just upscale SKY HD ?

I use the upscaler in my bluray player & at the moment i use my plasmas upscaler for SKYHD so if i wanted my amp to "just" do the scaleing for sky HD how would i go on about it?

SKY HD is a funny beast in that its upscaling isnt very good and its deinterlacer is absolutely awful

It FORCES SD to deinterlace if 1080i isnt selected so on that basis alone (and ONLY where SKY HD is concerned) its best to set to 1080i and let the tv deinterlace

Why they couldnt leave it at 576i I really have no clue. SKY+ actually has better SD pictures (So long as a top grade scart is connected) as it leaves it at 576i

So your saying that if the Sky HD box is set to 1080i then this should produce a better SD picture? If its set to 1080i then its the HD box doing the upscaling isnt it? And would HD programmes still be fine also?

 

[professorhat]

vineetpatel69:professorhat:
So to the OP, don't worry too much about this for the PS3 as you can't choose anything except 576p to test your upscaling, but for others, worth a look at also trying to output at 576i and see what happens then.

ok - some of this discussion is way over my head (the other part of the discussion is way way over my head!).

I'll have a play with the individual settings and see if there's an improvement in PQ and report back.

Yup, sorry about that and I suspect is a possible reason why the WHF article stayed clear of this area! Basically, just go as you were going to on the previous page

 

[jase fox]

I have a problem here, on my Pioneer amp i can turn the video conversion on but it wont let me do anything else? For e.g it wont let me set a resolution setting for some reason? The display on the amp shows the up & down arrows what i presume is were id set the resolution but it doesnt let me.

I looked in the manual & it says " that depending on how youve got your source or & settings on the amp it maynot let me use all the features" well from what i can see alls set up fine or am i missing something? Does anybody else have a Pioneer amp i dont think it matters which one as im sure there pretty much the same.

 

[aliEnRIK]

jase fox:aliEnRIK:
jase fox:So how do you get an amp to say just upscale SKY HD ?

I use the upscaler in my bluray player & at the moment i use my plasmas upscaler for SKYHD so if i wanted my amp to "just" do the scaleing for sky HD how would i go on about it?

SKY HD is a funny beast in that its upscaling isnt very good and its deinterlacer is absolutely awful

It FORCES SD to deinterlace if 1080i isnt selected so on that basis alone (and ONLY where SKY HD is concerned) its best to set to 1080i and let the tv deinterlace

Why they couldnt leave it at 576i I really have no clue. SKY+ actually has better SD pictures (So long as a top grade scart is connected) as it leaves it at 576i

So your saying that if the Sky HD box is set to 1080i then this should produce a better SD picture? If its set to 1080i then its the HD box doing the upscaling isnt it? And would HD programmes still be fine also?

It should be a better picture than any of the other settings yes. HD is 1080i anyways so it wont effect that in any way

 

[Anonymous]

I'd agree with RIK that 1080i is probably the best option for most people with Sky HD. It's possible to get 576i and 1080i over component with the 'Auto' setting, but the picture looks soft.

To get the best from Sky HD, you need a video processor that can fix the poor quality deinterlacing. Anchor Bay's VRS includes a feature called PReP (Progressive Reprocessing) that can do this. To get it you'll need to buy one of their PReP-capable DVDO video processors (either the Edge or the VP50 Pro) or a receiver with PReP built in (Yamaha's V3900 and Z7 are the only two I know of).

Next best option is to get a video processor or receiver (very hard to find) that can accept an RGBS (RGB SCART) input as well as HDMI. Then switch inputs depending on whether you're watching SD or HD.

 

[Anonymous]

beaverme:professorhat:
There's a good article on this in the current issue of WHF.

There isn't. I've just been reading it and it's awful. No explanation of or even mention of deinterlacing at all. Although 576p isn't mentioned explicitly in each of the system test write-ups, it's mentioned enough times to make me think that was the only SD signal tested. 576i isn't mentioned at all. As such the deinterlacing capabilities of the amps and displays on test are bypassed, which means that they're not fulfilling their true potential. As deinterlacing is the first, most complex and most commonly messed up step in upscaling SD video, I think this article is flawed. It certainly doesn't show people how to get the best from their systems.

The feature was conducted in the way it was for several reasons:

1) Increasing the variables in such a test makes it much more difficult to arrive at reliable conclusions.

2) This was a feature about upscaling, not deinterlacing - two different things. Features of this kind are to become more regular in the magazine, and we will interrogate a number of of fascinating questions of this type. Possibly including deinterlacing. Keep reading, folks.

3)There is a consensus within the industry that the best place to deinterlace is in the source. This is not an incontrovertible fact, it's a consensus view. It's also worth noting that a significant number of DVD players will not output the interlaced signal through HDMI, in effect forcing you to output 576p. The fact that we chose to use 576p was so we could test the upscaling function in effective isolation.

4) We are catering to a wide readership, including those not very familiar with all these functions, and by limiting the variables it made it easier to explain them in a clear and accessible way.

 

[jase fox]

aliEnRIK:jase fox:aliEnRIK:
jase fox:So how do you get an amp to say just upscale SKY HD ?

I use the upscaler in my bluray player & at the moment i use my plasmas upscaler for SKYHD so if i wanted my amp to "just" do the scaleing for sky HD how would i go on about it?

SKY HD is a funny beast in that its upscaling isnt very good and its deinterlacer is absolutely awful

It FORCES SD to deinterlace if 1080i isnt selected so on that basis alone (and ONLY where SKY HD is concerned) its best to set to 1080i and let the tv deinterlace

Why they couldnt leave it at 576i I really have no clue. SKY+ actually has better SD pictures (So long as a top grade scart is connected) as it leaves it at 576i

So your saying that if the Sky HD box is set to 1080i then this should produce a better SD picture? If its set to 1080i then its the HD box doing the upscaling isnt it? And would HD programmes still be fine also?

It should be a better picture than any of the other settings yes. HD is 1080i anyways so it wont effect that in any way

Rik, i set my HD box to 1080i & you were right i find the quality of SD programmes much better, they seem slightly brighter, cleaner & sharper, ive heard alot of people say its best to set it to AUTO which dont get me wrong is very good, but this is much better, but i suppose it depends on everybodys personal taste.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Anonymous]

dominic dawes:beaverme:professorhat:
There's a good article on this in the current issue of WHF.ÿ

There isn't. I've just been reading it and it's awful. No explanation of or even mention of deinterlacing at all. Although 576p isn't mentioned explicitly in each of the system test write-ups, it's mentioned enough times to make me think that was the only SD signal tested. 576i isn't mentioned at all. As such the deinterlacing capabilities of the amps and displays on test are bypassed, which means that they're not fulfilling their true potential. As deinterlacing is the first, most complex and most commonly messed up step in upscaling SD video, I think this article is flawed. It certainly doesn't show people how to get the best from their systems.ÿ

ÿ

ÿThe feature was conducted in the way it was for several reasons:

1) Increasing the variables in such a test makes it much more difficult to arrive at reliable conclusions.

2) This was a feature about upscaling, not deinterlacing - two different things. Features of this kind are to become more regular in the magazine, and we will interrogate a number of of fascinating questions of this type. Possibly including deinterlacing. Keep reading, folks.

3)There is a consensus within the industry that the best place to deinterlace is in the source. This is not an incontrovertible fact, it's a consensus view. It's also worth noting that a significant number of DVD players will not output the interlaced signal through HDMI, in effect forcing you to output 576p. The fact that we chose to use 576p was so we could test the upscaling function in effective isolation.

4) We are catering to a wide readership, including those not very familiar with all theseÿ functions, and by limiting the variables it made it easier to explain them in a clear and accessible way.

I think you're doing your readers a disservice. We're smarter than you think and we're certainly capable of grasping the concepts of deinterlacing, scaling and the relationship between the two. My key point here is that, with interlaced source material like DVD and broadcast TV, there's little or no point having good quality scaling without good quality deinterlacing. And what the expensive chips do vastly better than the cheaper ones is deinterlacing. Don't take my word for it though, go and ask the people who make the chips and write the algorithms and the manufacturers who build them into their products. If you ever decide to include a similar article in future, please drop me a line. How about a 'how to maximise the video performance of your system' (I'm sure you can come up with a catchier title) article? I'd be happy to help out.

 

[Anonymous]

...How about 'pimp my telly'?

 

[Anonymous]

Giggsy1977 asks a very interesting question to the WHF team and as yet does not seem to have received a reply. However, there's lot's of interesting technical stuff come through. By the way I don't think it's a hijack at alI, Giggsy1977 is right on the point.

I have a similar question. I have a Sony 46W4500 and watch a lot of standard definition free to air broadcast programming on both Freesat and Freeview, as I guess most of us do. I am trying to decide whether to buy the SONY 820 AV amp which does not have any upscaling built in and therefore rely on the 46W4500 to do the necessary, or spend the extra £160 to get the Onkyo 606 which can, I assume, do the upscaling. Which will result in the better picture and is it worth the extra cash.

I found the upscaling article in the April issue very interesting and informative but was a little disappointed that it only dealt with upscaling SD DVD, no mention of TV.

Hopfully the experts at WHF can provide some advice here.

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

[aliEnRIK]

jase fox:aliEnRIK:jase fox:aliEnRIK:
jase fox:So how do you get an amp to say just upscale SKY HD ?

I use the upscaler in my bluray player & at the moment i use my plasmas upscaler for SKYHD so if i wanted my amp to "just" do the scaleing for sky HD how would i go on about it?

SKY HD is a funny beast in that its upscaling isnt very good and its deinterlacer is absolutely awful

It FORCES SD to deinterlace if 1080i isnt selected so on that basis alone (and ONLY where SKY HD is concerned) its best to set to 1080i and let the tv deinterlace

Why they couldnt leave it at 576i I really have no clue. SKY+ actually has better SD pictures (So long as a top grade scart is connected) as it leaves it at 576i

So your saying that if the Sky HD box is set to 1080i then this should produce a better SD picture? If its set to 1080i then its the HD box doing the upscaling isnt it? And would HD programmes still be fine also?

It should be a better picture than any of the other settings yes. HD is 1080i anyways so it wont effect that in any way

Rik, i set my HD box to 1080i & you were right i find the quality of SD programmes much better, they seem slightly brighter, cleaner & sharper, ive heard alot of people say its best to set it to AUTO which dont get me wrong is very good, but this is much better, but i suppose it depends on everybodys personal taste.

Thanks for the advice.

Like I said ~ thats for SKY HD ONLY due to the cr*p way theyre designed to work. Generally speaking id have my Pioneer tv upscale SD content

I understand why people say 'auto' as they probably dont realise the deinterlacer in the sky box is as bad as it is (I initially said 'auto' myself till I found out more about them)

 

[Anonymous]

giggsy1977:
Apologies for the hijack...

Quick question for the WHF team and/or anyone that has one, what is the upscaler like on the Humax Foxsat HDR?

Is it better or worse than the scaler on the Onkyo 876?

Is it better or worse that the scaler on the current Panansonic plasmas and Sony LCD's?

Want my amp to sound good, but as I can't afford a Pioneer and want the best possible upscaled SD broadcasts over Freesat, what would people recommend?

Thanks

Hi,ÿ

I'm not 100% sure what's inside the Humax but I've read it's a Broadcom chip, maybe even the same chip that's inside the Sky HD box. Whatever it is, it's unlikely to be better than the Reon chip inside the 876. It's one of the best video processors available (at any price), especially when it comes to processing SD.

 

[giggsy1977]

Z3nut - I agree, it would be good to see the upscaling capabilities of different components upscaling broadcast SD pics from FreeSat or another external tuner. I had an old 32" Philips 9527 and the Pixel Plus pic on that was outstanding. I know my plasma won't provide the same SD pic, but want to try and get as close as poss without buying a standalone external scaler!

beaverme - thanks for the reply. I didn't think the processor in the Humax would be as good as that in the Onkyo 876 (wishful thinking on my part!) so that now puts me in the quandry of whether to get the 876 to upscale SD FreeSat into my tele (panny 46") and consequently maybe taking a small hit in sound quality to something like the Yamaha 863 which can't upscale the SD pics as well but would produce better surround sound. What to do??!!!

 

[Anonymous]

I'd have expected the 876 the to sound better with TV / movies than the 863. It tends to be music that trips up the big Onks.

Does your Humax box give you the option of outputting 576i rather than 576p? It's 576i that you need in order to get the best from HQV. ÿÿ

 

[giggsy1977]

Hello Beaverme - I think the Foxsat can output 576p and 576i - shall need to check. Difficult to arrange a demo when the 863's are in shoer supply and I'm still waiting for the price of the 876 to drop again!