WHFSV Reviews

[Richard Allen]

Whats the first thing you see when you go to any website or HIFI shop..? What hifi 5 star products. Its a shame that every standard is based on 5* products.

And there you have it. 5* products. Hmph!.

I have seen people go into HiFi shops armed with a wad of cash and a copy of What HiFi and you should see the sales guy cringe guys, you really should.

Customer gets magazine out, says " I want that CDP, that Amp, those cables etc. Poor old salesman doesn't stand a chance. He knows from experience that this combo ain't gonna work but customer's having none of it. If What HiFi say it's 5* then it's gotta be right.

Needless to say, a few days later the customer is back at the shop wingeing that " It don't work". Hell!!. Even WHF say that you should audition the components irrespective of the star rating BEFORE you part with your dosh but they don't listen.

Reviewing in a padded cell and listening in a real world living room really are poles apart. Moral of story??, listen to dealer.

Hi Richard.

Interesting views that pretty much paralells my own, by the way that dealer you describe was me (in a previous life).......

Just a thought, how do you reconcile you exortation to 'listen to a dealer' with the fact that you sell the bulk of your product direct........ :?

Hi Dave. My business model is in a minority compared to the industry as a whole and as of April/May EB will be available from retailers. With my stuff as it is at the moment you have 30 days to return it but to be honest, I think the anomolies coming through don't necessarily relate to loudspeakers. Those reviews are pretty good on the whole. It's Electronics where the problems come.

 

[davedotco]

Whats the first thing you see when you go to any website or HIFI shop..? What hifi 5 star products. Its a shame that every standard is based on 5* products.

And there you have it. 5* products. Hmph!.

I have seen people go into HiFi shops armed with a wad of cash and a copy of What HiFi and you should see the sales guy cringe guys, you really should.

Customer gets magazine out, says " I want that CDP, that Amp, those cables etc. Poor old salesman doesn't stand a chance. He knows from experience that this combo ain't gonna work but customer's having none of it. If What HiFi say it's 5* then it's gotta be right.

Needless to say, a few days later the customer is back at the shop wingeing that " It don't work". Hell!!. Even WHF say that you should audition the components irrespective of the star rating BEFORE you part with your dosh but they don't listen.

Reviewing in a padded cell and listening in a real world living room really are poles apart. Moral of story??, listen to dealer.

Hi Richard.

Interesting views that pretty much paralells my own, by the way that dealer you describe was me (in a previous life).......

Just a thought, how do you reconcile you exortation to 'listen to a dealer' with the fact that you sell the bulk of your product direct........ :?

Hi Dave. My business model is in a minority compared to the industry as a whole and as of April/May EB will be available from retailers. With my stuff as it is at the moment you have 30 days to return it but to be honest, I think the anomolies coming through don't necessarily relate to loudspeakers. Those reviews are pretty good on the whole. It's Electronics where the problems come.

That's quite a shift for you.

I hope you have chosen your dealers well. Good luck with that.

 

[Richard Allen]

That's quite a shift for you.

I hope you have chosen your dealers well. Good luck with that.

It's time to go to the dealers Dave. EB4 is gonna be around a grand so needs dealer support as do EB1 and 2. All the products will be available on the website at the same price as the retailers will sell it for but where there is a dealer near the customer, I will recommend going to them and refund deposit if paid.

As regards dealers, no chains. Independants only. The likes of Grahams in London and Musicraft in Derby. Scotland, EU and Rest of World will stay on the web.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

My problem with WHFSV reviews is 1) the lack of detail compared to other magazines (Hi-Fi Choice), which seem a lot more meticulous about the testing process; and 2) they seem to go through phases of having favourites. I'm always dubious if suddenly one brand becomes popular because they advertise a lot with the magazine.

They also make random comparisons, docking stars simply because another product exists and is (subjectively) 'better'. But 'better' surely depends on the needs of the listener. Perhaps one speaker is particularly suited to this type of music, etc. and so this notion of 'better' is false. Can't a product be judged on its own merits? This notion of comparison feels skewed.

 

[Native_bon]

My problem with WHFSV reviews is 1) the lack of detail compared to other magazines (Hi-Fi Choice), which seem a lot more meticulous about the testing process; and 2) they seem to go through phases of having favourites. I'm always dubious if suddenly one brand becomes popular because they advertise a lot with the magazine.

They also make random comparisons, docking stars simply because another product exists and is (subjectively) 'better'. But 'better' surely depends on the needs of the listener. Perhaps one speaker is particularly suited to this type of music, etc. and so this notion of 'better' is false. Can't a product be judged on its own merits? This notion of comparison feels skewed.

YOU COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER

 

[BigH]

I agree about the lack of depth in the reviews, it seems that they did the review in about 10 minutes, hardly any reference to music used and other equipment. Also agree about the testing room being far removed from the real world.

 

[Alec]

My problem with WHFSV reviews is 1) the lack of detail compared to other magazines (Hi-Fi Choice), which seem a lot more meticulous about the testing process; and 2) they seem to go through phases of having favourites. I'm always dubious if suddenly one brand becomes popular because they advertise a lot with the magazine.

They also make random comparisons, docking stars simply because another product exists and is (subjectively) 'better'. But 'better' surely depends on the needs of the listener. Perhaps one speaker is particularly suited to this type of music, etc. and so this notion of 'better' is false. Can't a product be judged on its own merits? This notion of comparison feels skewed.

YOU COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER

As you demonstrate, however, he could have said it LOUDER!

 

[professorhat]

One thing that always seems to come through on these threads is that all dealers are benevolent, kindly folk, desperate only to please their customer. But the always unreasonable customer has read something in WHF / <insert whatever magazine / website you like here> and won't be reasoned with.

I'm sure this happens sometimes, but I think it is worthwhile remembering there are unscrupulous dealers out there, who will more than happily direct you towards something because they'll make more margin from it. And consumers are suspicious as a result. Especially if they don't have the time / inclination to go on a long, and often arduous demo route.

Sure, for those that are really interested in the hobby, this thread makes a lot of sense. But your average joe just wants something decent quickly and WHF and its reviews fulfil that need. They also provide a guide for the former person, so he can at least be warned if a dealer is possibly one of the bad ones.

 

[slice]

I was a bit disappointed by the recent review of the Marantz Amplifier pm6005. Much was made of the failure to have a usb input, even though this would be obvious to a potential purchaser, yet comment on the other digital outputs was restricted to "... and find the onboard dac to be competent. It's performance is broadly similar to our other findings." Pretty vague stuff. Given that the new feature of the amp was these inputs, there was an obvious opportunity to test them using a dvd player, say, and compare the results with the CD6005 using the analogue connection. There must have been more than me interested in this comparison. The equivalent review in HIFI choice, whilst much more detailed, also missed out on this.

 

[davedotco]

One thing that always seems to come through on these threads is that all dealers are benevolent, kindly folk, desperate only to please their customer. But the always unreasonable customer has read something in WHF / <insert whatever magazine / website you like here> and won't be reasoned with.

I'm sure this happens sometimes, but I think it is worthwhile remembering there are unscrupulous dealers out there, who will more than happily direct you towards something because they'll make more margin from it. And consumers are suspicious as a result. Especially if they don't have the time / inclination to go on a long, and often arduous demo route.

Sure, for those that are really interested in the hobby, this thread makes a lot of sense. But your average joe just wants something decent quickly and WHF and its reviews fulfil that need. They also provide a guide for the former person, so he can at least be warned if a dealer is possibly one of the bad ones.

Sorry prof, but you have it wrong on virtually every point.

Sure most customers are not unreasonable, their distrust is primaily of themselves. The simply do not believe they are capable of 'telling the difference' and even when they are shown how easy it can be, they don't believe it because they have not chosen the 'correct' product.

Margin is rarely if ever an issue with independent dealers, if the margin is not what they need to make a living, they will not stock the product, simple as that. Most of the smaller suppliers, the ones the independents mostly deal with give comparable discounts, so at shop floor level it doesn't come into it.

Generally the deals are done at the mass market level, quantity discount, retros and the rest are far more likely to apply here than with the independents, one dealer group famously generating its own 'Awards', to shift slow moving product.

The 'average joe' would be better served finding a decent dealer and trusting him, but sadly,those days have passed. Which is crazy when you think about it, buy a sysyem recommended by a dealer and If it doesn't do what it should, get him out to fix or replace it.

Good luck getting the WHF review team out to sort out your system if it doesn't live up to expectations.

 

[Vladimir]

Expecting WHF to change the five star rating, for which it has cult status in the audio world, is like asking KFC to stop serving chicken, Lipton stop making tea and Cerwin-Vega! stop making everything so loud. :shhh:

It is what it is.

 

[professorhat]

The 'average joe' would be better served finding a decent dealer and trusting him, but sadly,those days have passed. Which is crazy when you think about it, buy a sysyem recommended by a dealer and If it doesn't do what it should, get him out to fix or replace it.

Sorry, I can't agree with you on this. I've personally been with friends who couldn't really give a monkeys about hi-fi / decent home cinema, but have asked my advice as "I'm in the know". I've taken them to a local "reputable" dealer and seen the dealer desperately try to sell them something (a) they don't really want, despite explanations to the contrary from myself; and (b) surprise surprise, something far more expensive than what they wanted to originally spend i.e. more margin for them. Afterwards I've had to apologise and grimace as we then go into Comet / Currys to get what they were actually after. I'm not saying all dealers are like this - far from it. I'm making the point though that there are dealers out there who do do this. And this is where a lot of the mistrust comes from, as the average joe may well not have the knowledge / confidence to counteract the dealer when they try this sort of malarkey.

Hi-fi / home cinema hobbyists as are primarily found on this forum should definitely go to dealers, listen to their advice, spend time auditioning several setups, go home, maybe visit another dealer, repeat etc. and then make their mind up on what they want to buy without just getting the 5 star system. But "Average Joe" - they'll probably say no thanks very much to all that hassle (in general). They don't want to do all of this, they just want to go into a shop, buy a system they're confident will sound pretty good and leave the shop. Job done. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[ID.]

One thing that always seems to come through on these threads is that all dealers are benevolent, kindly folk, desperate only to please their customer. But the always unreasonable customer has read something in WHF / <insert whatever magazine / website you like here> and won't be reasoned with.

I'm sure this happens sometimes, but I think it is worthwhile remembering there are unscrupulous dealers out there, who will more than happily direct you towards something because they'll make more margin from it. And consumers are suspicious as a result. Especially if they don't have the time / inclination to go on a long, and often arduous demo route.

My experience with dealers hasn't been great. They seemed to be more interested in boasting about the wonderful and exotic systems they'd heard/owned, and selling me on something far in excess of my budget with BS lines that they obviously trotted out for all of their customers.

"Do you want to drink the whiskey you like or the whiskey you can afford?" I'm (In was) 20, I effing hate whisky. Don't try to sell to me like you'd sell to your cashed up middle aged clients. They didn't even want to let me listen to the products I was interested in. You'd think that if you could hook a client with the hi-fi bug ready to spend a couple of thousand pounds worth then you'd have someone who'd keep coming back to you over a lifetime of upgrades.

Most recently I basically went to big box stores and auditioned stuff myself, based on reviews but also some of their recommendations. Interestingly, products with a 5 star what hifi review were marked as such, even here in Japan, but they did that for every product that had some kind of award or high rating.

 

[davedotco]

Sadly the quality of dealer seem to have plummeted in modern times. I understand that things have changed since 'my day' but sadly it seems, only for the worst. I know there are some good dealers around but it would appear, even fewer than I might have thought.

The kind of dealers noted in the couple of posts above whould have got short shrift 20 or so years ago and if that sort of thing is commonplace, then the modern hi-fi buyer is in for a very tough time.

Having been a dealer I naturally try and support them, but the 'race to the bottom' that has consumed the industry in recent times means that 'independents' simply can not compete at the budget end and have mainly moved upmarket, that said there is no excuse for the kind of behaviour noted above.

This was not my experience the last time I spent some time going around dealers, about 18 months ago or so. What I found was that the staff were generally trying to be helpfull but mostly inept. Demonstrations were, mostly, quite appalling and most of the 'chat' was about price and reviews.

At this time I was looking to spend £1500-2000, not an inconsequencial sum, but no one seemed cabable of understanding what I needed (dac, amp, speakers, not difficult) and played me all kinds of odd 'tat'. Had I been a novice buyer, I would probably have ended up in Currys too.

 

[Al ears]

I'd forget Curry's if you want anything vaguely hifi.

If you go to there website and navigate to Hi Fi Seperates you get the usual 'Sorry nothing found that matches your search criteria' and it's been like that for years.

 

[Covenanter]

I don't have any problem with dealers. IMO it's all down to how you treat them. They have a job to do which at the end of the day is to sell stuff but most of them are enthusiasts and are keen to tell you what they think. I always listen politely to what they have to say and if they say something interesting then I will question them further. I always go in with an idea of what I want to listen to and I always take a raft of CDs that I am familiar with. This is where reviews come in. If the reviews for a product are generally favourable then I will not rule it out. If they are generally unfavourable I will put it on my doubtful list. They help you narrow the list. This forum is similarly useful as it is easy to tell the people who have listened to a lot of stuff and have thought about what they have heard.

I am though constantly frustrated by WHFSV reviews because I've no idea, a lot of the time, what they are talking about. The words seem fairly meaningless - for example "Switching to a Rotel RA-10, we didn’t get the same level of insight and enunciation." What exactly does that mean? (I think they got a dictionary for Xmas.

)

Chris

 

[davedotco]

I don't have any problem with dealers. IMO it's all down to how you treat them. They have a job to do which at the end of the day is to sell stuff but most of them are enthusiasts and are keen to tell you what they think. I always listen politely to what they have to say and if they say something interesting then I will question them further. I always go in with an idea of what I want to listen to and I always take a raft of CDs that I am familiar with. This is where reviews come in. If the reviews for a product are generally favourable then I will not rule it out. If they are generally unfavourable I will put it on my doubtful list. They help you narrow the list. This forum is similarly useful as it is easy to tell the people who have listened to a lot of stuff and have thought about what they have heard.

I am though constantly frustrated by WHFSV reviews because I've no idea, a lot of the time, what they are talking about. The words seem fairly meaningless - for example "Switching to a Rotel RA-10, we didn’t get the same level of insight and enunciation." What exactly does that mean? (I think they got a dictionary for Xmas.

)

Chris

Just out of interest, how would you react to a salesman who politely dismissed your 'short list' and invited you to listen to something else entirely.

Genuine question here, would you give it a go? What would you do if it sounded really, really good? Would you actually buy something that did not contain any of your shortlisted items and perhaps, had not been favourably reviewed?

 

[jcbrum]

If you go to there website and navigate to Hi Fi Seperates you get the usual 'Sorry nothing found that matches your search criteria' and it's been like that for years.

That's probably because most people think that 'HiFi Separates' died out with record players and CD players.

Why bother with that category when most people want active loudspeakers to use with a streaming source ? (which work better anyway).

There is no requirement for 'HiFi Separates', and hasn't been for quite a while.

JC

 

[BigH]

The problem I had with auditions is finding dealers that stocked products you wanted to hear, some brands are very thin on the ground, (Totem, Harbeth, Creek and Dyns) even large brands like Kef . Also the shop may list the brand but then only stock a few speakers and not the ones you want to hear. Really outside London it was very hard to compare different products and then find a good dealer well?

 

[jcbrum]

Really outside London it was very hard to compare different products and then find a good dealer well?

Really, doesn't this tell us that there is insufficient demand for legacy hifi products, and many dealers cannot sustain a viable business in that sector.

JC

 

[BigH]

Really outside London it was very hard to compare different products and then find a good dealer well?

Really, doesn't this tell us that there is insufficient demand for legacy hifi products, and many dealers cannot sustain a viable business in that sector.

JC

You maybe right. As my local dealer seem to have more TVs than hifi, a bit like this magazine, more reviews on other products than hifi.

 

[Dave_]

Why bother with that category when most people want active loudspeakers to use with a streaming source ? (which work better anyway).

JC

Most people? Really?

I'd say 'most people' don't have a clue what active speakers are, let alone want them. Actives are as irrelevant as HiFi to 'most people'

 

[Native_bon]

I don't have any problem with dealers. IMO it's all down to how you treat them. They have a job to do which at the end of the day is to sell stuff but most of them are enthusiasts and are keen to tell you what they think. I always listen politely to what they have to say and if they say something interesting then I will question them further. I always go in with an idea of what I want to listen to and I always take a raft of CDs that I am familiar with. This is where reviews come in. If the reviews for a product are generally favourable then I will not rule it out. If they are generally unfavourable I will put it on my doubtful list. They help you narrow the list. This forum is similarly useful as it is easy to tell the people who have listened to a lot of stuff and have thought about what they have heard.

I am though constantly frustrated by WHFSV reviews because I've no idea, a lot of the time, what they are talking about. The words seem fairly meaningless - for example "Switching to a Rotel RA-10, we didn’t get the same level of insight and enunciation." What exactly does that mean? (I think they got a dictionary for Xmas.

)

Chris

Just out of interest, how would you react to a salesman who politely dismissed your 'short list' and invited you to listen to something else entirely.

Genuine question here, would you give it a go? What would you do if it sounded really, really good? Would you actually buy something that did not contain any of your shortlisted items and perhaps, had not been favourably reviewed?

Yes I would

 

[Native_bon]

Even those who believe in traditional HIFI.. Would they want to listen to something else which is not typical HIFI?, having been told it sounds really good? So it has to go both ways.. My point being, people only see others boxiness of mind & not their own!!

 

[Covenanter]

I don't have any problem with dealers. IMO it's all down to how you treat them. They have a job to do which at the end of the day is to sell stuff but most of them are enthusiasts and are keen to tell you what they think. I always listen politely to what they have to say and if they say something interesting then I will question them further. I always go in with an idea of what I want to listen to and I always take a raft of CDs that I am familiar with. This is where reviews come in. If the reviews for a product are generally favourable then I will not rule it out. If they are generally unfavourable I will put it on my doubtful list. They help you narrow the list. This forum is similarly useful as it is easy to tell the people who have listened to a lot of stuff and have thought about what they have heard.

I am though constantly frustrated by WHFSV reviews because I've no idea, a lot of the time, what they are talking about. The words seem fairly meaningless - for example "Switching to a Rotel RA-10, we didn’t get the same level of insight and enunciation." What exactly does that mean? (I think they got a dictionary for Xmas.

)

Chris

Just out of interest, how would you react to a salesman who politely dismissed your 'short list' and invited you to listen to something else entirely.

Genuine question here, would you give it a go? What would you do if it sounded really, really good? Would you actually buy something that did not contain any of your shortlisted items and perhaps, had not been favourably reviewed?

I'll listen to anything. I don't think I have any prejudices. If it sounded good I would buy it (assuming all other conditions were satisfactory). The last time I auditioned the salesmen said I should really listen to MA speakers as he felt they were as good as if not better than the Kefs. I listened but in the end disagreed with him.

As for the former, it has never happened. I'm a pretty confident, assertive person and salesmen tend to go along with me. Come the day I would probably say "Ok let's hear my choice and your suggestion in parallel."

Chris