Having had a night in playing lots of CDs I hadn’t heard in years, and noticing the, what appeared to me, massive variability in sound quality, got me thinking about the components and which are the most important, generally, to the quality of sound produced. I’d go with (most importance first)-------CD RECORDING------AMP------SPEAKERS-------CDP------INTERCON----SPEAKER CABLE-------MAINS------MAINS COND--------ALL THE STUFF IT ALL SITS ON.
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WHAT MAKES THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE?
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Although every rule has exceptions I think that sounds reasonable to me. CD production quality drives me insane. It's worse than making advert breaks in TV films louder. I really wish the loudness war would end and producers would engineer consistently good albums.
[quote user="fr0g"]CD recording is a given, but for me a quick out of 100% guesstimate...ALL given a decent starting quality*
*Ok lets start with £150 for each of CD/ Amp/Speakers... and £20 for interconnects, speaker cable 2 mmsq for a 2x4m as a minimum
Speakers 70%
Amp 20 %
Source 9%
Connects (given a solid startring point)...
Analogue...0.1 %
Digital 0%
Speaker 0.1%
Mains 0.000000000%
Conditioner (in a normal area) 0.2% more maybe in Afghanistan.
rack(0.5%)
Any left over for green pen to coat the cds, squash balls, things to keep cable off the floor and other associated nonsense.
[/quote]
You're really underestamating the source, I think. Speakers probably have the biggest effect on sound, I;ll agree with that, but what a source can't put in, the speaker can't put out.
My list, as I have perceived
Speakers:45%
Source: 30%
amplifier: 10%
interconnects en speakercables: 5%
mains cables: 5%
stands/equipment racks: 5%
Simon is bringing up a interesting point though, a terribly recorded cd will sound godawful on any system, whereas a a well recorded cd (brothers in arms) will sound great on just about anything, but can and will sound better on more expensive systems.
*Ok lets start with £150 for each of CD/ Amp/Speakers... and £20 for interconnects, speaker cable 2 mmsq for a 2x4m as a minimum
Speakers 70%
Amp 20 %
Source 9%
Connects (given a solid startring point)...
Analogue...0.1 %
Digital 0%
Speaker 0.1%
Mains 0.000000000%
Conditioner (in a normal area) 0.2% more maybe in Afghanistan.
rack(0.5%)
Any left over for green pen to coat the cds, squash balls, things to keep cable off the floor and other associated nonsense.
[/quote]
You're really underestamating the source, I think. Speakers probably have the biggest effect on sound, I;ll agree with that, but what a source can't put in, the speaker can't put out.
My list, as I have perceived
Speakers:45%
Source: 30%
amplifier: 10%
interconnects en speakercables: 5%
mains cables: 5%
stands/equipment racks: 5%
Simon is bringing up a interesting point though, a terribly recorded cd will sound godawful on any system, whereas a a well recorded cd (brothers in arms) will sound great on just about anything, but can and will sound better on more expensive systems.
you forgot another component, yourself.
Have you ever noticed that some days, everything sounds 'harsh' ... just not right?
I usually notice that first thing in the morning, normally in the car. After that, my system can do no right.
I believe it has a lot to do with 'alpha waves' ie. the state of the brain being relaxed enough to listen to music rather than processing and filtering out noise. Townshend of Townshend audio once wrote an interesting article on the subject also explaining why it is important to demo for more than twenty minutes only after which you're objectively able to make judgement on sound. Stress, ambient noise such as traffic etc. all playing a part.I strongly agree.
Have you ever noticed that some days, everything sounds 'harsh' ... just not right?
I usually notice that first thing in the morning, normally in the car. After that, my system can do no right.
I believe it has a lot to do with 'alpha waves' ie. the state of the brain being relaxed enough to listen to music rather than processing and filtering out noise. Townshend of Townshend audio once wrote an interesting article on the subject also explaining why it is important to demo for more than twenty minutes only after which you're objectively able to make judgement on sound. Stress, ambient noise such as traffic etc. all playing a part.I strongly agree.
I'm not sure i entirely agree with as much as 70% on output and only 9% on the source, that means i'd be looking at around £1900 for speakers for a £250 cd player! Although i do agree that spending more on decent speakers is a must, i don't think personally i would split it that broadly. Mind you, this is a personal thing and i'm not saying this is right or wrong.
Mines;
1.Room
2.Turntable
3.Speakers
4.Amplifiers
5.Mains
6.Cd player
7.Cables
Why? The room has the biggest effect on the final sound, reflections, nodes, modes, standing waves all effect the response of the loudspeakers. Then the turntable source, no matter how good a speaker is it is IMPOSSIBLE to improve on the quality of the signal, if the signal isn't there, the loudspeaker cant reproduce it. It's amazing the difference a amplifier can make, how it drives and controls the loudspeaker, it's damping factor and THD. Cd players make a difference, but not that huge these days, and your mains quality and cables are the final tunning devices.
1.Room
2.Turntable
3.Speakers
4.Amplifiers
5.Mains
6.Cd player
7.Cables
Why? The room has the biggest effect on the final sound, reflections, nodes, modes, standing waves all effect the response of the loudspeakers. Then the turntable source, no matter how good a speaker is it is IMPOSSIBLE to improve on the quality of the signal, if the signal isn't there, the loudspeaker cant reproduce it. It's amazing the difference a amplifier can make, how it drives and controls the loudspeaker, it's damping factor and THD. Cd players make a difference, but not that huge these days, and your mains quality and cables are the final tunning devices.
It's not quite simple as that but FWIW I think room and speakers have to gel together. Get that right and you are half way there.
I have to say when I put my (decent) kit on a rack it made a startling difference, not a share of 0.5%. More like 10 times that. It wasn't a 'I think it sounds a little better' moment, it was a "Jesus Christ, what the F has happened", and I was a doubter beforehand.
fr0g, if someone doesn't agree with you, if doesn't mean they must have something fundamentally wrong with them (ie your patronising washing-machine statement) or their system!
No, please don't go away - we encourage energetic debate!
Just a friendly reminder that if you haven't experienced everything a wide range of kit can offer in a range of circumstances then you're dealing with opinions rather than facts.
So you saying, as above "changing from one good solid stand to another isn't gonna give 5% improvement" should be qualified with information as to whether you've tested a wide range of stands or lived through that experience as the previous poster obviously had.
No biggie, just trying to keep things flowing fairly (and with your fantastic Pascal-quote signature, i'm sure you'll appreciate the need to avoid polemic!)
Just a friendly reminder that if you haven't experienced everything a wide range of kit can offer in a range of circumstances then you're dealing with opinions rather than facts.
So you saying, as above "changing from one good solid stand to another isn't gonna give 5% improvement" should be qualified with information as to whether you've tested a wide range of stands or lived through that experience as the previous poster obviously had.
No biggie, just trying to keep things flowing fairly (and with your fantastic Pascal-quote signature, i'm sure you'll appreciate the need to avoid polemic!)
"...if you haven't experienced everything a wide range of kit can offer in a range of circumstances then you're dealing with opinions rather than facts." This is the case regardless of whether you have "...experienced everything a wide range of kit can offer in a range of circumstances...".
I think an amp makes the biggest difference from experience. followed by source then speakers.
Reason why - an amp needs to reproduce the signal from the source accurately so a decent amp is required to convert the signals to a decent level. If rubbish signals/tones are produced no matter how good your speakers are it will sound best average Only then can you determine whether you have good or rubbish speakers or insufficient source. You might end up changing your source or speaker when in fact your amp aint up to the job.
I honestly think the amp is an intregal component which makes most difference IMHO.
This is from personal experience. Views may differ - guess this makes hi-fi interesting
Personally I would split the cost of budget (without cables) 40% amp 30% source 30% speakers.
People say what you feed your amp is what u get out. But then again do they realise what goes in must access the amplifier in order to recreate the sound. Hence my appreciation for the amplifier
Good source > bad amp = insufficient quality sound through speakers
Average source > great amp = good sound even on average speakers.
Your views may vary.
Reason why - an amp needs to reproduce the signal from the source accurately so a decent amp is required to convert the signals to a decent level. If rubbish signals/tones are produced no matter how good your speakers are it will sound best average Only then can you determine whether you have good or rubbish speakers or insufficient source. You might end up changing your source or speaker when in fact your amp aint up to the job.
I honestly think the amp is an intregal component which makes most difference IMHO.
This is from personal experience. Views may differ - guess this makes hi-fi interesting
Personally I would split the cost of budget (without cables) 40% amp 30% source 30% speakers.
People say what you feed your amp is what u get out. But then again do they realise what goes in must access the amplifier in order to recreate the sound. Hence my appreciation for the amplifier
Good source > bad amp = insufficient quality sound through speakers
Average source > great amp = good sound even on average speakers.
Your views may vary.
"Your views may vary" LOL! Everyone should adopt that as a sig! Frog, cheers! Not that i disagreed entirely with Clare. With the greatest respect to yourself, i think she had a point, in a way, but im still lovin your work so dont take that too badly! I think the word fact gets bandied around too easily generally, and especially in this world. The opinion expressed in, say, WHFS&V reviews, while based on the views of an experienced team, is just an opinion, all be it an aggregated opinion (i have doubts about my use of the language there, but im sure someone will pull me up), and im sure Clare would agree. If not, she, and anyone else disagreeing, would be wrong. Fact. Ahem.
I think the point we need to take from this debate is that there really is no rule of thumb for price distribution over components. Components all work differently and sometimes a low end component goes well in an expensive system. It also depends on the type of sacrifices you're willing to make, i.e. bookshelf speakers that produce stunning mids but no bass versus all-round floor-standers for the same cash.
But never skimp on cables 🙂 (Please, God help us, don't respond to this last comment.......)
But never skimp on cables 🙂 (Please, God help us, don't respond to this last comment.......)
[quote user="al7478"]"Your views may vary" LOL! Everyone should adopt that as a sig! Frog, cheers! Not that i disagreed entirely with Clare. With the greatest respect to yourself, i think she had a point, in a way, but im still lovin your work so dont take that too badly! I think the word fact gets bandied around too easily generally, and especially in this world. The opinion expressed in, say, WHFS&V reviews, while based on the views of an experienced team, is just an opinion, all be it an aggregated opinion (i have doubts about my use of the language there, but im sure someone will pull me up), and im sure Clare would agree. If not, she, and anyone else disagreeing, would be wrong. Fact. Ahem.[/quote]
Fear not, I agree! It's the same reason we encourage everyone to try before they buy.
Fear not, I agree! It's the same reason we encourage everyone to try before they buy.
[quote user="fr0g"]But if all you change is the type of stand( from one solid one to another), and nothing else... I'm sorry, I just don't buy it... [/quote]
same here....
I never spend too much on the racks or stands and if I do it would be because they look nice rather than big improvement in sound. However one person hearing is different from either and no way of proving that this so call "essential" hifi accesaries can really improve hifi sound.
I never spend too much on the racks or stands and if I do it would be because they look nice rather than big improvement in sound. However one person hearing is different from either and no way of proving that this so call "essential" hifi accesaries can really improve hifi sound.
Of all audio components I think the source makes the least difference.
Speakers the most, when thinking of components that is, but when taking everything in account the room definitely makes the biggest difference.
Some modest room treatment, proper placement of speakers will save you lots of money.
But definitely the least or zero difference would make tweaks like speaker stands, racks, spikes and cables.
Though I once felt (in my early audio years when I read every Hifi magazine out there) my cd player sounded a bit better placed in a wooden rack than in a metal one...I clearly was imagining things.
Wood looks better though.
Speakers the most, when thinking of components that is, but when taking everything in account the room definitely makes the biggest difference.
Some modest room treatment, proper placement of speakers will save you lots of money.
But definitely the least or zero difference would make tweaks like speaker stands, racks, spikes and cables.
Though I once felt (in my early audio years when I read every Hifi magazine out there) my cd player sounded a bit better placed in a wooden rack than in a metal one...I clearly was imagining things.
Wood looks better though.
[quote user="fr0g"][quote user="JoelSim"]I have to say when I put my (decent) kit on a rack it made a startling difference, not a share of 0.5%. More like 10 times that. It wasn't a 'I think it sounds a little better' moment, it was a "Jesus Christ, what the F has happened", and I was a doubter beforehand.[/quote]
And personally if you saw such a difference then I think there might have been a specifc problem with the way you had it, such as something simply vibrating, which you got rid of.
As I said. I am basing my personal %'s based on a decent solid starting point.. which would certainly include NOT putting your CD player on a washing machine for example 😉 - (Not that I am suggesting that you did of course 😉 )
*edited slightly - I can see Clares point.. Dont want to appear rude, just think there are other variables at play...[/quote]
Yes taking it out of the washing machine when on rinse definitely helped the sound, much less wishy-washy and greater depth, speed and an improvement to the sound in a biological sense (ie to my ears).
For info I've been into hifi for nearly 20 years, and after buying my current system and moving into my girlfriend's, I didn't have a rack that would fit, so I placed my various Arcam components on top of one another on a solid stone area of my living room floor. I was happy with the sound.
I then had a bespoke solid oak rack made and when placing said components onto the stand was flabbergasted by the change in the bass of the first track - That Uncertain Smile by The The. Not just a small change but something that had me standing open mouthed looking at the equipment and wondering how.
I will add that this was the only change to my system at this point, having had all these components and respective mains/intercoonects/cables etc in place already. To my mind that made the difference completely down to the rack. Nor did I change the position of the speakers in the room.
So, I'm not a muppet in knowing that a stand can have a significant effect.
I have a new Crystal Piccolo interconnect arriving in a few days and I shall report on this too.
And personally if you saw such a difference then I think there might have been a specifc problem with the way you had it, such as something simply vibrating, which you got rid of.
As I said. I am basing my personal %'s based on a decent solid starting point.. which would certainly include NOT putting your CD player on a washing machine for example 😉 - (Not that I am suggesting that you did of course 😉 )
*edited slightly - I can see Clares point.. Dont want to appear rude, just think there are other variables at play...[/quote]
Yes taking it out of the washing machine when on rinse definitely helped the sound, much less wishy-washy and greater depth, speed and an improvement to the sound in a biological sense (ie to my ears).
For info I've been into hifi for nearly 20 years, and after buying my current system and moving into my girlfriend's, I didn't have a rack that would fit, so I placed my various Arcam components on top of one another on a solid stone area of my living room floor. I was happy with the sound.
I then had a bespoke solid oak rack made and when placing said components onto the stand was flabbergasted by the change in the bass of the first track - That Uncertain Smile by The The. Not just a small change but something that had me standing open mouthed looking at the equipment and wondering how.
I will add that this was the only change to my system at this point, having had all these components and respective mains/intercoonects/cables etc in place already. To my mind that made the difference completely down to the rack. Nor did I change the position of the speakers in the room.
So, I'm not a muppet in knowing that a stand can have a significant effect.
I have a new Crystal Piccolo interconnect arriving in a few days and I shall report on this too.
[quote user="fr0g"][quote user="JoelSim"]I have to say when I put my (decent) kit on a rack it made a startling difference, not a share of 0.5%. More like 10 times that. It wasn't a 'I think it sounds a little better' moment, it was a "Jesus Christ, what the F has happened", and I was a doubter beforehand.[/quote]
And personally if you saw such a difference then I think there might have been a specifc problem with the way you had it, such as something simply vibrating, which you got rid of.
As I said. I am basing my personal %'s based on a decent solid starting point.. which would certainly include NOT putting your CD player on a washing machine for example 😉 - (Not that I am suggesting that you did of course 😉 )
*edited slightly - I can see Clares point.. Dont want to appear rude, just think there are other variables at play...[/quote]
Yes taking it out of the washing machine when on rinse definitely helped the sound, much less wishy-washy and greater depth, speed and an improvement to the sound in a biological sense (ie to my ears).
For info I've been into hifi for nearly 20 years, and after buying my current system and moving into my girlfriend's, I didn't have a rack that would fit, so I placed my various Arcam components on top of one another on a solid stone area of my living room floor. I was happy with the sound.
I then had a bespoke solid oak rack made and when placing said components onto the stand was flabbergasted by the change in the bass of the first track - That Uncertain Smile by The The. Not just a small change but something that had me standing open mouthed looking at the equipment and wondering how.
I will add that this was the only change to my system at this point, having had all these components and respective mains/intercoonects/cables etc in place already. To my mind that made the difference completely down to the rack. Nor did I change the position of the speakers in the room.
So, I'm not a muppet in knowing that a stand can have a significant effect.
I have a new Crystal Piccolo interconnect arriving in a few days and I shall report on this too.
And personally if you saw such a difference then I think there might have been a specifc problem with the way you had it, such as something simply vibrating, which you got rid of.
As I said. I am basing my personal %'s based on a decent solid starting point.. which would certainly include NOT putting your CD player on a washing machine for example 😉 - (Not that I am suggesting that you did of course 😉 )
*edited slightly - I can see Clares point.. Dont want to appear rude, just think there are other variables at play...[/quote]
Yes taking it out of the washing machine when on rinse definitely helped the sound, much less wishy-washy and greater depth, speed and an improvement to the sound in a biological sense (ie to my ears).
For info I've been into hifi for nearly 20 years, and after buying my current system and moving into my girlfriend's, I didn't have a rack that would fit, so I placed my various Arcam components on top of one another on a solid stone area of my living room floor. I was happy with the sound.
I then had a bespoke solid oak rack made and when placing said components onto the stand was flabbergasted by the change in the bass of the first track - That Uncertain Smile by The The. Not just a small change but something that had me standing open mouthed looking at the equipment and wondering how.
I will add that this was the only change to my system at this point, having had all these components and respective mains/intercoonects/cables etc in place already. To my mind that made the difference completely down to the rack. Nor did I change the position of the speakers in the room.
So, I'm not a muppet in knowing that a stand can have a significant effect.
I have a new Crystal Piccolo interconnect arriving in a few days and I shall report on this too.
I agree here. My eyesight has been worsening so I'm guessing my hearing has too! Sometime, it just seem all good, at other times, a bit muffled or flat. I recently saw the Bournemouth Orchestra play live and even then in such a great hall with fantastic acoustics and amazing musicians, to me my ears let me down a little. I don't know much about alpha waves, but to me, if the audio equipment can't replicate the raw acoustics of a live orchestra, then it's flawed. But if my brain is expecting more than my ears are capable of...! I think at certain times of the day/evening, my ears are much more perceptive than at others, I play piano, and this this unexplained lossy doesn't help, I can tell you!. 🙂
John Duncan
Well-known member
- Jan 8, 2008
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Heavens. I go away for a couple of days, come back and suddenly it's the seventies again and everybody's saying that speakers are the most important thing in your hifi.
It's like Ashes to Ashes, but without Keeley Hawes (rroowwll).
It's like Ashes to Ashes, but without Keeley Hawes (rroowwll).
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
- Sep 6, 2007
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My opinion and I am new to the game. If you are talking rubbish speakers to decent £500 a pair speakers then they are the most important. However, £500 speakers upwards, I reckon they are less important. For me the amp has made the biggest difference. I have tried a cd player (the Pioneer PD-D6-J) that is a good £150 more expensive than my Denon and 5 stars to the Denon's 4. However, I did not notice any difference really. When I used my AV receiver instead of my amp as a test, the difference was astounding. I would say decent cables are 5% of the importance. So, speakers 35%, amp 45%, CD player, cables 5%, room, stand, spikes, conditioners etc., 5%. This is not taking into consideration the quality of CD.
fatboyslimfast
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- Jan 10, 2008
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I think you might have hit the nail on the head here. I think at the lower end (sub 1k for a system) then improvements will mainly be around tonality and control, whilst further up the improvements will be more about detail retrieval and transparancy (timbre of instruments etc).
Therefore, at the lower end, the speaker will make the most noticable difference, as the better ones are far more likely to have a correct tonal balance, and less muddled (re clearer) sound. This will certainly be more evident than an addition of detail.
Once you get to a higher level, the items mentioned previously should already be sorted, and then the source becomes more important, as anything it loses cannot be re-created further down the chain.
Just my 2p worth...
Therefore, at the lower end, the speaker will make the most noticable difference, as the better ones are far more likely to have a correct tonal balance, and less muddled (re clearer) sound. This will certainly be more evident than an addition of detail.
Once you get to a higher level, the items mentioned previously should already be sorted, and then the source becomes more important, as anything it loses cannot be re-created further down the chain.
Just my 2p worth...
Isn't Ashes to ashes about the eighties? I think you mean Life on Mars. I agree with you about the speaker bit though.
On the subject of biscuits I am very partial to "Jaffa cakes" (I know they are not strictly biscuits but who cares!). I could easily eat a box. I also like "Club" though I haven't had one of those for a long time.
On the subject of biscuits I am very partial to "Jaffa cakes" (I know they are not strictly biscuits but who cares!). I could easily eat a box. I also like "Club" though I haven't had one of those for a long time.
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