Covenanter
Well-known member
- Jul 20, 2012
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Whilst Paul may have a point in general about the public and the www, my observations of the Elicit saga is that Steve was restrained and behaved impeccably and without sensationalism.
Why should he not report his “issue” with his amps on the forum where he reported the prelude to purchasing it with equal measure.
No wonder Steve you can’t believe what you are reading. I think Paul’s dropped a clanger.
Why should he not report his “issue” with his amps on the forum where he reported the prelude to purchasing it with equal measure.
No wonder Steve you can’t believe what you are reading. I think Paul’s dropped a clanger.
- Apr 28, 2008
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paul darwin said:
I'm well aware of Rega's reputation. Like many on here I've been buying hi-fis since the late 70s and can remember hearing early turntables (circa 81/82). I have in no agenda, as I try and support British brands, and appreciate what the "Rega brand" means to your followers. With that in mind, it's even more surprising these foibles have crept into your products over (very) recent times. If it was a one-off, that is acceptable - electro/mechanical stuff can and do go wrong on occasions. But 4 times with one client and one product? and these are the ones we know about.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2007
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MakkaPakka said:
With this in mind I'm not sure it is entirely helpful for there to be too much talk of Leema's 'end'. A quick look at the Companies House website has shown that they have changed their registered address to a business park in Stoke-On-Trent. This suggests there are at least some hopes to save the brand, supported by a total lack of any administration notice on their website.
BigH said:
I can see this from both sides.
The internet can be used as a useful tool to pressure a manufacturer into doing the right thing / and inform others of potential problems, or unfairly as a blunt instrument to hammer a brand on a public forum ,before the issue has had a chance to be resolved less publicly.
IMO. Rega did themselves more good than harm in the fair way they dealt with Steve's problem, and generally get a good press on forums....so overall are more in the black, than in the red.
matthewpiano said:
Yes, it's just a 'meeting of creditors' which, whilst not a good sign, doesn't necessarily mean serious problems.
I really know nothing of Leema but hope that all the British brands (particularly the ones that are actually British) thrive and survive.
Paul,
Forums are a stage for like minded people to share opinion. The Penguin has started a new topic for discussion. He has at no time done anything other than comment on his own experiences. Rega products are well reviewed in this publication and have a strong following in the forums. I suspect Rega have secured a number of sales through recommendation on this forum alone.
Regards.
Forums are a stage for like minded people to share opinion. The Penguin has started a new topic for discussion. He has at no time done anything other than comment on his own experiences. Rega products are well reviewed in this publication and have a strong following in the forums. I suspect Rega have secured a number of sales through recommendation on this forum alone.
Regards.
I've bought a number of different components over the past 7/8 years since I started appreciating all things AV, and I am happy to say that everything thus far has been excellent. With the exception of my previous VT50 series plasma (which suffered from excessive horizontal banding) of course. I still don't hold any ill will towards the brand, as I understand anything can have problems, be it a tv, a hifi, a car, even a home.
It would be interesting to know if fault rates realistically are actually much higher than what they were 20 years ago, or is it more the fact that thanks to the internet, we are better connected and thus word of mouth travels faster and further than ever before.
It would be interesting to know if fault rates realistically are actually much higher than what they were 20 years ago, or is it more the fact that thanks to the internet, we are better connected and thus word of mouth travels faster and further than ever before.
MakkaPakka said:
the meeting of the creditors is a formality where all the people who are owed money are usually told there is none , although for the most part the creditors never bother to turn up. These days insolvency is often used to escape onerous contracts , leases, debts, and employee liabilities as part of a company restructure so we may see leema re emerge at some time.
In the consumer space in general, increased demands on incomes as well as increases in the standard of living we expect means the amount we are prepared to spend on items in real terms is lower. This means they have to be cheaper, some of this is met by economies of scale, some by accelerated development process, a cheaper part, a cheaper workforce, better technology, better processes etc. Some of these might mean the product is somehow of lesser quality than you had encountered before, but you would probably need to be selective as to which examples you chose to prove your point. Would you trade your 2014 car that will happily do 120k+ miles for a brand new example from the 80's, I doubt it. Others look back at that massive hulk of a CRT TV they used to own and reminisce as to the fact it lasted 20years, conveniently forgetting that a good TV was a very expensive item built using boring and stable technology. It was so expensive you rented it, todays TV can cost less than a weekend away, and the manufacturer doesn't want it to last 20 years because they didn't make very much money selling it to you in the first place.
But this is a HiFi forum, specifically one populated by people who spend staggering sums of money on what they quite reasonably expect to be quality merchandise. But there is a problem, even HiFi has to move forwards, there are new techologies to implement and expections to meet that can no longer simply be met by electronic wizardy. This is where software steps in, it provides the logic that would otherwise require huge and complicated circuits, it runs your displays, decodes your audio streams, tunes your phase lock loops and runs to 100's or even millions of lines. There is no such thing as a piece of software of any size that is 100% bug free, you can test for every conceivable user or system interaction but there will always be things that are missed or not thought o fand so will not be found in testing. Sometimes these bugs, won't be bugs at all, instead they are features or approaches that do not agree with how the user wishes to use the product. This is why you will find a continuous evolution of these softwares and why many modern products are capable of being updated in the field or even automatically. There is far less room for any excuses for failures at a hardware level, when systems cost as much as many of these do there is no need or reason to cut corners on the quality of parts, they are not the significant cost, R&D, QA and labour are.
I would argue that all discussions in open forums are good and healthy, small software bugs and glitches can go unnoticed or unreported for years. If the software engineer doesn't know they are there, they cannot get fixed. If someone pops on a forum and says "This is a bit odd... does anyone else find xxx?" , that can mean the difference between a fault being identified and fixed versus the issue being ignored as a one off glitch. It is always worth remembering that the internet means we have far greater access to reports of these issues and people can tend to report the bad more often than the good. I don't think thats the case here, you are far more likely to see positive comments than negative ones, if as a product manufacturer you start seeing more of the bad, a proactive approach to solving the public examples cannot be anything other than good publicity. A combative one can only be bad, you won't find many customers who accept they are wrong, least of all ones who are concerned about their expensive kit. It is also worth remembering that increased sales will mean increased faulty units, googling would suggest Rega has done quite well of late....
A company can indeed use bankruptcy as a means to escape debts, just as we can with an IVA. It would be wrong to conisder this some kind of get out of jail free card. Employees, and suppliers will have gotten hurt, those bridges may be burnt, a whole new relationship will need to be built for anything new to come into being. I guess we have to wait and see...
But this is a HiFi forum, specifically one populated by people who spend staggering sums of money on what they quite reasonably expect to be quality merchandise. But there is a problem, even HiFi has to move forwards, there are new techologies to implement and expections to meet that can no longer simply be met by electronic wizardy. This is where software steps in, it provides the logic that would otherwise require huge and complicated circuits, it runs your displays, decodes your audio streams, tunes your phase lock loops and runs to 100's or even millions of lines. There is no such thing as a piece of software of any size that is 100% bug free, you can test for every conceivable user or system interaction but there will always be things that are missed or not thought o fand so will not be found in testing. Sometimes these bugs, won't be bugs at all, instead they are features or approaches that do not agree with how the user wishes to use the product. This is why you will find a continuous evolution of these softwares and why many modern products are capable of being updated in the field or even automatically. There is far less room for any excuses for failures at a hardware level, when systems cost as much as many of these do there is no need or reason to cut corners on the quality of parts, they are not the significant cost, R&D, QA and labour are.
I would argue that all discussions in open forums are good and healthy, small software bugs and glitches can go unnoticed or unreported for years. If the software engineer doesn't know they are there, they cannot get fixed. If someone pops on a forum and says "This is a bit odd... does anyone else find xxx?" , that can mean the difference between a fault being identified and fixed versus the issue being ignored as a one off glitch. It is always worth remembering that the internet means we have far greater access to reports of these issues and people can tend to report the bad more often than the good. I don't think thats the case here, you are far more likely to see positive comments than negative ones, if as a product manufacturer you start seeing more of the bad, a proactive approach to solving the public examples cannot be anything other than good publicity. A combative one can only be bad, you won't find many customers who accept they are wrong, least of all ones who are concerned about their expensive kit. It is also worth remembering that increased sales will mean increased faulty units, googling would suggest Rega has done quite well of late....
A company can indeed use bankruptcy as a means to escape debts, just as we can with an IVA. It would be wrong to conisder this some kind of get out of jail free card. Employees, and suppliers will have gotten hurt, those bridges may be burnt, a whole new relationship will need to be built for anything new to come into being. I guess we have to wait and see...
Well said. Don't dare to cross the posters mind, they just gang up and troll you. Keyboard warriors.paul darwin said:
20/30 years ago there was not the amount of problems with hifi there is today, thats the way I remember it, I was in the trade. Things seemed to ware out rather than break as soon as they leave the factory? The www obviously has a big part to play, there have always been underprivileged and starving people, we are more aware because of the web. Modern cars seem to break down very quickly, usually electrical and very expensive!!!
We demand cheap, we get what we demand . . . ? Returning to hifi 3 years back, I went for an amplifier which was twice the price of what I wanted to pay. It served me very well, it was hand built, hard wired point to point in the UK by the man who lends his name to the brand. He rarely if ever gets returns, his dealers love the product, no frustrations, happy customers a top well respected name, small fish in a big pond and thats the way he likes it.
But I had to pay . . . CJSF
We demand cheap, we get what we demand . . . ? Returning to hifi 3 years back, I went for an amplifier which was twice the price of what I wanted to pay. It served me very well, it was hand built, hard wired point to point in the UK by the man who lends his name to the brand. He rarely if ever gets returns, his dealers love the product, no frustrations, happy customers a top well respected name, small fish in a big pond and thats the way he likes it.
But I had to pay . . . CJSF
Unfortunately Rega comes across as uneccesarily agressive and defensive from your post.
Yes, there are some people who join up to forums with an axe to grind without having even gone through the normal processes of trying to resolve their issue through the appropriate channels, but others such as Steve and plastic penguin are long time posters who are just letting people know their experiences, and on the balance of things have probably provided more good marketing for the various brands they own than negative.
As is often the case when brands/their spokespersons leap onto a forum to defend themselves, they often do themselves a disservice through a knee-jerk reaction to a single thread.
Yes, there are some people who join up to forums with an axe to grind without having even gone through the normal processes of trying to resolve their issue through the appropriate channels, but others such as Steve and plastic penguin are long time posters who are just letting people know their experiences, and on the balance of things have probably provided more good marketing for the various brands they own than negative.
As is often the case when brands/their spokespersons leap onto a forum to defend themselves, they often do themselves a disservice through a knee-jerk reaction to a single thread.
chebby
Well-known member
- Jun 2, 2008
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I have been buying hi-fi since 1981 when I left sixth form college and got my first full-time job.
In that whole time I have only had one 'bleeding' LCD display (Naim CD5i) and one dead tweeter (first set of Rega R3s). Both problems were fixed swiftly by dealer and manufacturer under their respective guarantees (5 years and 3 years) at no cost to me.
The vast majority of the kit in those 3 decades was sold on (or given to) various customers / colleagues / friends / family and (as far as I know) continued to give trouble free service afterwards. (Some of it I know to still be in use even now.)
As for Rega in particular, I have enjoyed three of their turntables at different times between 1983 - 2009, an amplifier and matching tuner for almost 11 years between 1996 and 2007 (Rega Brio + Rega Radio) and two sets of their R3 loudspeakers between 2008 and now.
Apart from the previously mentioned tweeter (sorted out with no subsequent re-occurrance), my Rega experiences have all been trouble-free and most enjoyable.
If Rega ever make their own version of something like the NaimUniti then I might even be their customer yet again. (But I have given up on seperates and turntables so i'll just have to wish them well for now.)
In that whole time I have only had one 'bleeding' LCD display (Naim CD5i) and one dead tweeter (first set of Rega R3s). Both problems were fixed swiftly by dealer and manufacturer under their respective guarantees (5 years and 3 years) at no cost to me.
The vast majority of the kit in those 3 decades was sold on (or given to) various customers / colleagues / friends / family and (as far as I know) continued to give trouble free service afterwards. (Some of it I know to still be in use even now.)
As for Rega in particular, I have enjoyed three of their turntables at different times between 1983 - 2009, an amplifier and matching tuner for almost 11 years between 1996 and 2007 (Rega Brio + Rega Radio) and two sets of their R3 loudspeakers between 2008 and now.
Apart from the previously mentioned tweeter (sorted out with no subsequent re-occurrance), my Rega experiences have all been trouble-free and most enjoyable.
If Rega ever make their own version of something like the NaimUniti then I might even be their customer yet again. (But I have given up on seperates and turntables so i'll just have to wish them well for now.)
I would have to say, I mostly agree with Paul @ Rega.
People (in general) post on forums without much thought for the effect it might have.
What anyone posts, is then publicly searchable. So if I had an ongoing issue with a component, and posted in the middle of it being sorted out by the manufacturer, I would have a different opinion compared to the result (could be positive or negative).
The very few times I have had a faulty item, the last thing I would have done is go on a public forum and talk about it, especially so if it was in the process of being resolved with a dealer/manufacturer.
Online forums and 'personal reviews' tend to lean towards either people who are very enthusiastic about a product, or very negative. You never really see many posts of the people in between who are happy but dont feel the need to post, I.E. the vast majority of customers.
In response to the OP, I dont think at all that products are not as reliable, its just we know more about the ones that are. So in the past, before the wide use of online forums, your experience and knowlege of products was mainly down to your local dealer, friends/clubs or magazines, so a very small (relatively) cross section of the buying public.
So when you have a very isolated issue with a product, it becomes available to a wide audience, weather good or bad.
Hifi is SO reliable these days, I can have a Tripath based amp that consumes barely any power and gives of no heat, left on 24/7 and left in a cupboard, a cheap Blu-ray source for £50 that plays any format I would wish to play, even streaming.
And on a personal note, I wont hide my admiration for Rega as a company, always had first class service with them and one of the few companies that have a ethos and stick to it. I very much adore their speakers having had a fair number of them now!
People (in general) post on forums without much thought for the effect it might have.
What anyone posts, is then publicly searchable. So if I had an ongoing issue with a component, and posted in the middle of it being sorted out by the manufacturer, I would have a different opinion compared to the result (could be positive or negative).
The very few times I have had a faulty item, the last thing I would have done is go on a public forum and talk about it, especially so if it was in the process of being resolved with a dealer/manufacturer.
Online forums and 'personal reviews' tend to lean towards either people who are very enthusiastic about a product, or very negative. You never really see many posts of the people in between who are happy but dont feel the need to post, I.E. the vast majority of customers.
In response to the OP, I dont think at all that products are not as reliable, its just we know more about the ones that are. So in the past, before the wide use of online forums, your experience and knowlege of products was mainly down to your local dealer, friends/clubs or magazines, so a very small (relatively) cross section of the buying public.
So when you have a very isolated issue with a product, it becomes available to a wide audience, weather good or bad.
Hifi is SO reliable these days, I can have a Tripath based amp that consumes barely any power and gives of no heat, left on 24/7 and left in a cupboard, a cheap Blu-ray source for £50 that plays any format I would wish to play, even streaming.
And on a personal note, I wont hide my admiration for Rega as a company, always had first class service with them and one of the few companies that have a ethos and stick to it. I very much adore their speakers having had a fair number of them now!
hoopsontoast said:
Well said hoops.
I feel sad as I read this thread. With the exception of companies the likes of Rega and tiddly little concerns the likes of me, there is very little made completely in this country anymore. All been shovelled off to China which I believe will come back to bite us in the bum in the next 5 years. One of my customers actually believed that Wharfedale was a british company and still made here. Hey Ho.
The problem will come when the Chinese standard of living will start to approach our own. Manufacturers will have to look elsewhere for production but won't return home for 2 reasons. 1). Can't make enough profit and 2), No infrastructure. The capital investment would be enormous.
Of course, if these groups had used their brains in the first place the infrastructure would have been preserved but there were inordinate pressures placed on these companies.....By us in our quest to get more for less. It's not that we've been callous in any way but what we've caused by striving for a bargain has become apparent.
With the exception of a small group of us, where does the industry go from here???. B***ered if I know.
An engineering friend of mine said to me "Richard. Businesses will come and go. Fact of life but when the skills are gone, that's it. end of."
You could extend that concern to a lot of industries - most notably food. Quite why people buy, for example, Lurpak, when we have a struggling dairy industry, I don't know.
There are some of us who try and buy British-made where possible. My two most costly possessions - my cooker and my amplifier - were both made in Britain. I get pride of ownership knowing they're made here but a lot of people don't care about things like that.
There are some of us who try and buy British-made where possible. My two most costly possessions - my cooker and my amplifier - were both made in Britain. I get pride of ownership knowing they're made here but a lot of people don't care about things like that.
Covenanter
Well-known member
- Jul 20, 2012
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I have to say that I don't care! If British companies can't make competitive products at competitive prices then they deserve to go to the wall. It's nothing to do with being patriotic though. We live in a competitve world and as a country we have to build businesses that can survive in it.
Chris
Chris
I think the fact that these things now get discussed in public can probably contribute to a perception that there are more quality assurance/fault issues than there used to be. Humans aren't very good at grasping the bigger picture and tend to be heavily influenced by their own experiences and the experiences of those immediately around them. And, in the internet age, that includes any online communities such as forums, but I don't think they give anything like an accurate representation of the actual statistics. Which can be very unfair on manufacturers.
Mentally I try to implement a scoring system like in the Olympics where the very top scores and bottom scores are discarded to eliminate the possibility of bias. I tend to take negative and positive reviews/views/comments of acertain kind with a grain of salt, but it isn't easy to read between the lines and work out any potential ulterior motives (concious or subconscious).
Mentally I try to implement a scoring system like in the Olympics where the very top scores and bottom scores are discarded to eliminate the possibility of bias. I tend to take negative and positive reviews/views/comments of acertain kind with a grain of salt, but it isn't easy to read between the lines and work out any potential ulterior motives (concious or subconscious).
CJSF said:
Sorry but this is cobblers, I'm 40, I remember the amount of problems my dad had with his cars (brand new company cars replaced every 18 months) when I was growing up, no end of problems (including watching our luggage bouncing down the road in the Dartford tunnel after the boot on our Triumph 2000 flew open as it was always doing).
Compared to that I've had one brand new car, 57 plate Astra, the heater didn't work when I got it but that was replaced, free of charge of course, in about an hour, other than that it gave me no problems. I've since owned 2 1 year old Saab 9-3s, one of them failed with an expensive electrical issue but not until I'd put 175,000 miles on it in 3 years, which I don't think is a bad exchange. Other than that no issues.
I do get pissed off with misty eyed "enthusiasts" who insist old cars were far more reliable. They aren't. I left the Practical Classics forum after one idiot tried to claim, in all seriousness, that that winter (which hadn't been particularly cold) his old banger was the only car on his street that would start without a jumpstart and that every "modern" owner had had to call the AA out to get them going. I like old cars but that kind of pathetic hyperbole is just ridiculous.
Covenanter said:
If your employer told you they'd found someone in China who could do your job for 50% of the salary would you and your family deserve to go to the wall or would you just decide to be competitive and take a salary cut of half?
I'm not interested in supporting British companies as such but I see the importance of British jobs. If we sit back and shrug our shoulders then there will be no jobs left and no one to pay into the pot.
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