What did I do wrong on my first Hi-Fi?

[CnoEvil]

CNo you know the truth on this - your just being politically correct.

BTW I had suggested pretty much all you said right at the start of the thread - setup is crucial and it needs more time than one evening.

Yes you did, but the sound advice may have got drowned in the sea of unnecessary bickering.....so I thought it worth highlighting, along with a couple of extra pointers.

I also think it's a great shame, that a few on here feel that the only way to make their point, is to resort to insults....which is never an intelligent way to win any argument.

FWIW. I think that tinkering is worthwhile, but is best done when one has become very familiar with the system.

 

[ellisdj]

CNo you know the truth on this - your just being politically correct.

BTW I had suggested pretty much all you said right at the start of the thread - setup is crucial and it needs more time than one evening.

Yes you did, but the sound advice may have got lost in the sea of unnecessary bickering.....so I thought it worth highlighting, along with a couple of extra pointers.

I also think it's a great shame, that a few on here feel that the only way to make their point, is to resort to insults....which is never an intelligent way to win any argument.

FWIW. I think that tinkering is worthwhile, but is best done when one has become very familiar with the system.

I wasnt having a dig - just pointing out we are on the same page. I thought a pair of B&W CDM SNT I bought used several years ago were faulty when I got them home. Sounded like they were under water when playing them?? The treble sounded glary and thin and just wrong, i thought the tweeter was damaged - I was gutted had driven to Leicester to collect from a seller on ebay, paid a lot of money to me at the time for them, this was the much earlier days of ebay before buyer protection etc.

I was expecting them to match the sound I was getting from my N805 fronts for the most part

I removed the metal links - bared a long section of the silver anniversary XT speaker cable I still use for my rears and wired through the LF terminal straight up into the HF Terminal so they were joined by the speaker cable - after that they sounded like proper speakers and I never looked back and have had the same experience time and time again with metal links on different speakers.

When I demo'd the PMC22 I wish I had realised so I could have got a full demp of them - because parts of the sound I liked - the rest was horrendous. I do mean horrendous - again sounded like the speaker was underwater.

While someone new maybe can get used to their speakers first before tweaking, I dont see that as a tweak, I see that as a fundamental thing to do, always buy links with the spaker cable - or they can listen to the snake oil brigade on here charm on that nothing makes any difference.

Great sound comes from one thing only - attention to detail. Everyone charms on about having great sounding kit - to them maybe it is - but I know for a fact its attention to details which will make the system sound Great -

This doesnt mean spending tons of money - but it does mean spending time - listening and learning. You can choose to listen to the snake oil brigade that are convinced that nothing makes a difference.

I feel this is why you can listen to ££££££ worth of kit at a show and it sounds rubbish - then go in another room and hear kit half the cost sound twice as good - they made more effort in this room

You can choose to listen to the people who spend loads of time effort and money trying to push the boundaries of what is achieveable from a home system in a home environment and then bother to write about it trying to help others - getting shot down by the snake oil brigade at every opportunity.

It depends how much you care and how much you want to achieve. I only ever say what has made a positive difference - what has got me closer to the best sound I have ever heard - and exceeding it on some aspects - then make your own mind up.

 

[CnoEvil]

I wasnt having a dig.

Of course you weren't......we're on the same side of the debate.

We do a lot of experimentation and pass on our findings, in case it's of interest...but always with the proviso that people have to try for themselves.

 

[Covenanter]

CNo you know the truth on this - your just being politically correct.

BTW I had suggested pretty much all you said right at the start of the thread - setup is crucial and it needs more time than one evening.

Yes you did, but the sound advice may have got lost in the sea of unnecessary bickering.....so I thought it worth highlighting, along with a couple of extra pointers.

I also think it's a great shame, that a few on here feel that the only way to make their point, is to resort to insults....which is never an intelligent way to win any argument.

FWIW. I think that tinkering is worthwhile, but is best done when one has become very familiar with the system.

I wasnt having a dig - just pointing out we are on the same page. I thought a pair of B&W CDM SNT I bought used several years ago were faulty when I got them home. Sounded like they were under water when playing them?? The treble sounded glary and thin and just wrong, i thought the tweeter was damaged - I was gutted had driven to Leicester to collect from a seller on ebay, paid a lot of money to me at the time for them, this was the much earlier days of ebay before buyer protection etc.

I was expecting them to match the sound I was getting from my N805 fronts for the most part

I removed the metal links - bared a long section of the silver anniversary XT speaker cable I still use for my rears and wired through the LF terminal straight up into the HF Terminal so they were joined by the speaker cable - after that they sounded like proper speakers and I never looked back and have had the same experience time and time again with metal links on different speakers.

When I demo'd the PMC22 I wish I had realised so I could have got a full demp of them - because parts of the sound I liked - the rest was horrendous. I do mean horrendous - again sounded like the speaker was underwater.

While someone new maybe can get used to their speakers first before tweaking, I dont see that as a tweak, I see that as a fundamental thing to do, always buy links with the spaker cable - or they can listen to the snake oil brigade on here charm on that nothing makes any difference.

Great sound comes from one thing only - attention to detail. Everyone charms on about having great sounding kit - to them maybe it is - but I know for a fact its attention to details which will make the system sound Great -

This doesnt mean spending tons of money - but it does mean spending time - listening and learning. You can choose to listen to the snake oil brigade that are convinced that nothing makes a difference.

I feel this is why you can listen to ££££££ worth of kit at a show and it sounds rubbish - then go in another room and hear kit half the cost sound twice as good - they made more effort in this room

You can choose to listen to the people who spend loads of time effort and money trying to push the boundaries of what is achieveable from a home system in a home environment and then bother to write about it trying to help others - getting shot down by the snake oil brigade at every opportunity.

It depends how much you care and how much you want to achieve. I only ever say what has made a positive difference - what has got me closer to the best sound I have ever heard - and exceeding it on some aspects - then make your own mind up.

Or you could just stop pretending?

Chris

 

[matt49]

I hate to state the obvious. But maybe he just doesn't like the sound of the speakers he's bought.

Could you take them back to the shop to swap them and audition a few other speakers to see which ones take your fancy?

I think Steve may have put his finger on it.

There is hope though. Sometimes it just takes a wihle to adjust to a new sound; it's amazing how one's hearing can adapt.

And maybe the speakers do need a few days to loosen up. Some people will be sceptical, but it's entirely plausible that the materials need some time to reach their optimal flexibility.

Matt

 

[MajorFubar]

CNo you know the truth on this - your just being politically correct.

BTW I had suggested pretty much all you said right at the start of the thread - setup is crucial and it needs more time than one evening.

Yes you did, but the sound advice may have got drowned in the sea of unnecessary bickering.....

i must have missed the unnecessary bickering, unless you mean me. In which case I don't apologise at all I'm afraid. When a newby comes on here and tells us he's spent two grand an a new hifi that he can't stand the sound of, what he really doesn't need is claptrap and nonsense such as replace the links on the speaker terminals with wire, it'll sound much better. No it won't. Or that one wire in the LF+ and one wire in the HF- (or vice versa) compromises the sound, even when the binding posts are joined with solid metal links. It's just rubbish, and confuses someone who maybe isn't knowledgeable enough to distinguish useful advice that will help him from snake oil that will not. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

 

[ellisdj]

Changing the metal links out is not rubbish advice - not changing the links is rubbish advice

Jumper Cables

https://www.russandrews.com/category.asp?lookup=0&region=UK&currency=GBP&customer_id=PAA0799056314872CGDPKCRHOZXPMXQN&cat_id=PSPEAJUMP

http://www.telluriumq.com/jumpers-bi-wire-links/

http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/interconnects.htm

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=8894#.U2qfcVeKyMI

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=3828#.U2qffFeKyMI

Silver anniversary jumper cables http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/231167028261?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

http://www.cardas.com/jumpers.php

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=3117&gclid=COSOn7bbmr4CFccSwwodBTcALQ

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/van-den-hul-the-magnum-hybrid-jumpers-1-pair-p-8891.html#.U2qf_VeKyMI

Oh no Its just me who thinks that these make a difference

 

[CnoEvil]

i must have missed the unnecessary bickering, unless you mean me. In which case I don't apologise at all I'm afraid. When a newby comes on here and tells us he's spent two grand an a new hifi that he can't stand the sound of, what he really doesn't need is claptrap and nonsense such as replace the links on the speaker terminals with wire, it'll sound much better. No it won't. Or that one wire in the LF+ and one wire in the HF- (or vice versa) compromises the sound, even when the binding posts are joined with solid metal links. It's just rubbish, and confuses someone who maybe isn't knowledgeable enough to distinguish useful advice that will help him from snake oil that will not. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

I have no wish to argue with you, Major...especially as I have made my position clear, and you don't have a habit of insulting others to make your point.

 

[dalwen]

i think we need some humor...........what you did wrong....whe i read the posts.......i think --> posting on the forum

 

[davedotco]

This thread is almost complete nonsense, the OP has spend the best part of £2k on a system that is, at best disapointing and a worse, a complete shambles.

It is pretty clear that the issues go way beyond issues of cables or 'run in' or much of the other comments above. To be brutally frank the problem is pretty obvious.

Firstly it is highly unlikely the OP ever auditioned the system, if he had he would have a much better idea of what was causing the problems.

Then there is the equipment itself, the PP6, like all Regas can be a little dark sounding, particularly if a Rega cartrige is used. Site the player poorly, on heavy furniture for example, or close to the speakers and that slightly dark character becomes heavy and plodding.

Then match that with an amplifier that is known to be generous in the bass, and to my mind slow and inarticulate to boot and the problem becomes compounded.

Then, to make absolutely sure, finish off the system with a pair of big, cheap floorstanding speakers with more drive units and more bass than you can shake a stick at and its going to sound exactly as described in the opening post.

To the OP. If you can, send it all back, get as much of your money back as you can and visit a competent dealer.

 

[John Duncan]

Some observations after a speed read:

1) the speakers are a bit big

2) the cables are both of sufficient quality and look wired correctly, so are not the source of the problem

3) we don't know what the cartridge is.

I suspect a cartridge/phono stage or speaker/room mismatch.

 

[CnoEvil]

This thread is almost complete nonsense, the OP has spend the best part of £2k on a system that is, at best disapointing and a worse, a complete shambles.

It is pretty clear that the issues go way beyond issues of cables or 'run in' or much of the other comments above. To be brutally frank the problem is pretty obvious.

Firstly it is highly unlikely the OP ever auditioned the system, if he had he would have a much better idea of what was causing the problems.

Then there is the equipment itself, the PP6, like all Regas can be a little dark sounding, particularly if a Rega cartrige is used. Site the player poorly, on heavy furniture for example, or close to the speakers and that slightly dark character becomes heavy and plodding.

Then match that with an amplifier that is known to be generous in the bass, and to my mind slow and inarticulate to boot and the problem becomes compounded.

Then, to make absolutely sure, finish off the system with a pair of big, cheap floorstanding speakers with more drive units and more bass than you can shake a stick at and its going to sound exactly as described in the opening post.

To the OP. If you can, send it all back, get as much of your money back as you can and visit a competent dealer.

I think on balance you are correct; but given the money that was spent (and how much the OP is realistically likely to get back), it was worth a bit of experimentation to see if the sound could be made acceptable, before he took a hit.

 

[Covenanter]

Changing the metal links out is not rubbish advice - not changing the links is rubbish advice

Jumper Cables

https://www.russandrews.com/category.asp?lookup=0&region=UK&currency=GBP&customer_id=PAA0799056314872CGDPKCRHOZXPMXQN&cat_id=PSPEAJUMP

http://www.telluriumq.com/jumpers-bi-wire-links/

http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/interconnects.htm

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=8894#.U2qfcVeKyMI

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=3828#.U2qffFeKyMI

Silver anniversary jumper cables http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/231167028261?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

http://www.cardas.com/jumpers.php

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=3117&gclid=COSOn7bbmr4CFccSwwodBTcALQ

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/van-den-hul-the-magnum-hybrid-jumpers-1-pair-p-8891.html#.U2qf_VeKyMI

Oh no Its just me who thinks that these make a difference

It's just the gullible and those who sell snake oil.

Chris

 

[Freddy58]

This thread is almost complete nonsense, the OP has spend the best part of £2k on a system that is, at best disapointing and a worse, a complete shambles.

It is pretty clear that the issues go way beyond issues of cables or 'run in' or much of the other comments above. To be brutally frank the problem is pretty obvious.

Firstly it is highly unlikely the OP ever auditioned the system, if he had he would have a much better idea of what was causing the problems.

Then there is the equipment itself, the PP6, like all Regas can be a little dark sounding, particularly if a Rega cartrige is used. Site the player poorly, on heavy furniture for example, or close to the speakers and that slightly dark character becomes heavy and plodding.

Then match that with an amplifier that is known to be generous in the bass, and to my mind slow and inarticulate to boot and the problem becomes compounded.

Then, to make absolutely sure, finish off the system with a pair of big, cheap floorstanding speakers with more drive units and more bass than you can shake a stick at and its going to sound exactly as described in the opening post.

To the OP. If you can, send it all back, get as much of your money back as you can and visit a competent dealer.

Dave, don't beat around the bush, tell it like it is

 

[davedotco]

This thread is almost complete nonsense, the OP has spend the best part of £2k on a system that is, at best disapointing and a worse, a complete shambles.

It is pretty clear that the issues go way beyond issues of cables or 'run in' or much of the other comments above. To be brutally frank the problem is pretty obvious.

Firstly it is highly unlikely the OP ever auditioned the system, if he had he would have a much better idea of what was causing the problems.

Then there is the equipment itself, the PP6, like all Regas can be a little dark sounding, particularly if a Rega cartrige is used. Site the player poorly, on heavy furniture for example, or close to the speakers and that slightly dark character becomes heavy and plodding.

Then match that with an amplifier that is known to be generous in the bass, and to my mind slow and inarticulate to boot and the problem becomes compounded.

Then, to make absolutely sure, finish off the system with a pair of big, cheap floorstanding speakers with more drive units and more bass than you can shake a stick at and its going to sound exactly as described in the opening post.

To the OP. If you can, send it all back, get as much of your money back as you can and visit a competent dealer.

I think on balance you are correct; but given the money that was spent (and how much the OP is realistically likely to get back), it was worth a bit of experimentation to see if the sound could be made acceptable, before he took a hit.

Sorry Cno, but the issues with this type of system goes way beyond a bit of experimentation. I know I keep saying 'Told you so' but I saw an awful lot of systems just like this, poorly selected, poorly matched and totally unsuited to the buyer's room and needs.

As Lindsayt said earlier, the very best that could happen is that you take some time with the system, your ears adjust so that it doesn't now sound quite so bad, so you end up living with it though it remains fundamentally pretty awful.

You make the best of it because it 'owes you' a lot of money, best cut your loses and get out now. If you bought online, distance selling regulations should apply, if you can't get a refund try and get a swap, a Brio-R for the Roksan and some decent standmounts more suited to a small room. When you move into a bigger room either upgrade to bigger (but not too big) speakers then or get a sub. Do not forget to get a proper support for the player too.

 

[Vladimir]

I'll play Captain Subtext and translate what Dave said:

You want big and awesome speakers for cheap. Doesn't matter if the badge says Cerwin-Vega! or Mission, you are getting the same deal.

 

[Freddy58]

You make the best of it because it 'owes you' a lot of money,

Been there, with my first system. Was never happy with it....

 

[davedotco]

This thread is almost complete nonsense, the OP has spend the best part of £2k on a system that is, at best disapointing and a worse, a complete shambles.

It is pretty clear that the issues go way beyond issues of cables or 'run in' or much of the other comments above. To be brutally frank the problem is pretty obvious.

Firstly it is highly unlikely the OP ever auditioned the system, if he had he would have a much better idea of what was causing the problems.

Then there is the equipment itself, the PP6, like all Regas can be a little dark sounding, particularly if a Rega cartrige is used. Site the player poorly, on heavy furniture for example, or close to the speakers and that slightly dark character becomes heavy and plodding.

Then match that with an amplifier that is known to be generous in the bass, and to my mind slow and inarticulate to boot and the problem becomes compounded.

Then, to make absolutely sure, finish off the system with a pair of big, cheap floorstanding speakers with more drive units and more bass than you can shake a stick at and its going to sound exactly as described in the opening post.

To the OP. If you can, send it all back, get as much of your money back as you can and visit a competent dealer.

Dave, don't beat around the bush, tell it like it is

I was trying to be fairly gentle, in reality the OP has bought a lemon and should get out from under as quickly as he can. Heneeds to find a competent dealer and go from there.

To ellisdj. Keep up the good work, excellent stuff......!

 

[Vladimir]

I agree with the Major. If you bought the wrong car, changing the keychain wont improve things significantly.

 

[MajorFubar]

Changing the metal links out is not rubbish advice - not changing the links is rubbish advice

Jumper Cables

<<<some link on a fined conman's website>>

I respect your opinion. I think it's claptrap. But I respect it. But what even you must admit is that whatever's 'broken' in the OP's system is NOT going to be fixed by swapping-out the metal links in his speakers with jumper cables. There's a guy here who's spent four figures buying a hifi he fundamentally doesn't like the sound of and there's really only four possibilities: 1) his speakers in particular need more time to sound their best, 2) his system doesn't work well together and never will, 3) his system works well together but doesn't work well in his room, 4) It all works fine and dandy and really sounds great, but basically he doesn't like the sound of it. Pishing-around swapping metal links for jumper cables isn't solving any of that and is just a dead-end to nowhere for him. That's why I called it misleading.

EDIT: If pushed to pick one, my money's on 2.

 

[zilli]

So now we all agree he appears to have wired his speakers correctly. Happy to repeat my offer that if he's anywhere close to me (unlikely) I'll go round and take a look when commitments allow. Anyone else? He must be near one of us.

Thanks Major, but I'm based in Thailand.

 

[Al ears]

Quite a lot of posts to try and determine why his 'speakers sound likes if there are pillows in front of them'.

Basically we have determined that they are wired up correctly and nothing else.

Presuming his RP6 has an Exact cartridge fitted then, until he can try another source (CD?) to see if produces the same 'stuffy' response, there is little more we can do to advise.

It could be the cartridge is at fault but we cannot know for sure.

Changing the source has to be the OP's next move. Borrow a CD player?

If this still produces a sound he doesn't like then it's off to the dealer to try some different speakers.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Major

His description of a muffled pillow over the speakers sounds resemblance of experiences i have had several times.

For £20 buying links is 100% worth doing - its.a.cheap thing i am.suggesting that he tries and might make all the difference to.him

 

[cheeseboy]

Hi Major

His description of a muffled pillow over the speakers sounds resemblance of experiences i have had several times.

For £20 buying links is 100% worth doing - its.a.cheap thing i am.suggesting that he tries and might make all the difference to.him

so might some brilliant pebbles. Are you going to suggest those as well?

 

[Vladimir]

ellisdj I see in your signature you use JPlay. That explains everything.