We would usually recommend spending more on the CD than the amp or speakers. Is this good advice?

[davedotco]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

For someone as willfully and deliberately uninformed as your self, that is highly amusing.

I blame the parents.

Do elaborate. But don't expect any reply that is any different to what I have said already.

What is it you're having a problem with?

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

 

[chebby]

Can you change your forum name so it doesn't do this ...

<a href=""mailtoavid@FrankHarvey">David@FrankHarvey</a>wrote"

:

 

[Frank Harvey]

would you dare to explain why you think measuring audio is a stupid suggestion?

Sure.....

Not all kit is even. They are not designed to be.

The old Ferarri F360 v Fiat Punto 1.2cc both can do 50mph no problem but.......

Its stupid to compromise the better engineered, more powerful vehicle/equ.

Makes no sense and proves nothing.

We are still talking about comparing stuff arent we?

It's a disclaimer a cop out - just turn the things on and listen.

Refer to David@ and Tonkys post they make good sense.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Can you change your forum name so it doesn't do this ...

<a href=""mailtoavid@FrankHarvey">David@FrankHarvey</a>wrote"

:

Pass - I presume it's a forum issue. Is it the "@"? Maybe admin can confirm...

 

[tonky]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

Well, I read more than I type on this forum. I always respect (Dave@ and DDC) your views on this site.. Two really good posters on the forum and as Dave@ says - main issues on the site - definitely not you two.

The problem with forum posting - this one and many other types - people can easily be misunderstood and we see what happens. It's not just you two - others as well - and it can all be a bit of a downward spiral as we have just seen in the last few postings.

Misunderstanding - nothing more - nothing less

peace tonky

 

[Frank Harvey]

Maybe admin can confirm...

*ROFL*

Blerrr...

 

[davedotco]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

This is quite breathtaking...!

People do hear differences, and do so all the time. Surprising as it might be to you, most people will have hearing every bit as good as your own.

It is quite plain that you really have no idea just how powerfull the various phenomena I mentioned are, if you did you would not make such crass statements as "anyone ... can here differences if they so wish'.

This is nonsense of the highest order, you really need to look into this matter rather more deeply.

Maybe you could start with this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

[steve_1979]

Maybe admin can confirm...

*ROFL*

 

[Frank Harvey]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

Well, I read more than I type on this forum. I always respect (Dave@ and DDC) your views on this site.. Two really good posters on the forum and as Dave@ says - main issues on the site - definitely not you two.

The problem with forum posting - this one and many other types - people can easily be misunderstood and we see what happens. It's not just you two - others as well - and it can all be a bit of a downward spiral as we have just seen in the last few postings.

Misunderstanding - nothing more - nothing less

peace tonky

 

[davedotco]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

Well, I read more than I type on this forum. I always respect (Dave@ and DDC) your views on this site.. Two really good posters on the forum and as Dave@ says - main issues on the site - definitely not you two.

The problem with forum posting - this one and many other types - people can easily be misunderstood and we see what happens. It's not just you two - others as well - and it can all be a bit of a downward spiral as we have just seen in the last few postings.

Misunderstanding - nothing more - nothing less

peace tonky

But there is no miss-understanding.

I know exactly where dave@ is coming from.

How? Because I used to be exactly the same, I could here the differences between everything, whats more, when demonstrating, my listeners could hear the difference too...! Yep, I was that good...!

What happened? Hi-fi Choice is what happened. I was invited to take part in some listening tests that were, shock, horror, carried out blind and with levels matched.

Nothing, hi-fi wise, was quite the same again.

 

[Frank Harvey]

This is quite breathtaking...!

People do hear differences, and do so all the time. Surprising as it might be to you, most people will have hearing every bit as good as your own.

It is quite plain that you really have no idea just how powerfull the various phenomena I mentioned are, if you did you would not make such crass statements as "anyone ... can here differences if they so wish'.

This is nonsense of the highest order, you really need to look into this matter rather more deeply.

Maybe you could start with this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

You are twisting things to suit your criteria. I have not stated that individuals can hear "better" than others. Please feel free to bullet point the 'phenomena you have mentioned'.

I haven't looked at the video you've linked to, as I feel that anyone can hear differences.

Sometimes I find myself in demos where I don't feel there is enough of a difference to shout about, but I don't start blurting out my findings before I have a chance to delve into the real differences that are apparent after an initial listening period.

 

[steve_1979]

But there is no miss-understanding.

I know exactly where dave@ is coming from.

How? Because I used to be exactly the same, I could here the differences between everything, whats more, when demonstrating, my listeners could hear the difference too...! Yep, I was that good...!

What happened? Hi-fi Choice is what happened. I was invited to take part in some listening tests that were, shock, horror, carried out blind and with levels matched.

Nothing, hi-fi wise, was quite the same again.

Been there done that.

As you say, the differences are so obvious that even a deaf idiot could hear them in their sleep. Then you try a proper level matched blind comparison and suddenly it's not so easy. Hifi is never quite the same again after that.

 

[Frank Harvey]

What happened? Hi-fi Choice is what happened. I was invited to take part in some listening tests that were, shock, horror, carried out blind and with levels matched.

Nothing, hi-fi wise, was quite the same again.

I've tried level matched listening tests.

Of the listening tests that you've undertaken, how many do you know - for 100% certain - were completely genuine? How do you know that everything was properly undertaken?

Just because you were part of it, doesn't mean it was totally genuine.

 

[Covenanter]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

This is quite breathtaking...!

People do hear differences, and do so all the time. Surprising as it might be to you, most people will have hearing every bit as good as your own.

It is quite plain that you really have no idea just how powerfull the various phenomena I mentioned are, if you did you would not make such crass statements as "anyone ... can here differences if they so wish'.

This is nonsense of the highest order, you really need to look into this matter rather more deeply.

Maybe you could start with this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

+ several million.

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

I personally wouldn't trust any blind listening test that someone else hosted, as you will never know whether it was hosted accurately.

 

[Covenanter]

I personally wouldn't trust any blind listening test that someone else hosted, as you will never know whether it was hosted accurately.

You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with hifi.

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

I feel like Frankenstein's monster here, so I'm out. I've made my point quite clearly. If someone still can't grasp it, that's their problem.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with hifi.

Chris

Did you ever buy any equipment from Frank Harvey HiFi/HiFix?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I personally wouldn't trust any blind listening test that someone else hosted, as you will never know whether it was hosted accurately.

You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with hifi.

Chris

Coming from you (who has never really agreed on anythinthg I've said), that means nothing. I've said before, I'll take part in any blind test that I can easily attend.

 

[Vladimir]

*biggrin*

 

[lpv]

The arrogance...!

The very idea that you amongst millions of people are totally different in your ability to evaluate audio equipment, are entirely immune to the effects of level variation, suggestion bias, expectation bias and all the other psycoacoustic phenomena that plagues ordinary mortals.

And the assumption that the rest of us can not hear the same differences that you hear is even more bizzare..... News Flash, We do....!!!

There is no arrogance in what I have stated. I don't put myself forward to be any different to anyone else on this forum. Anyone, "amongst the millions of people" can hear differences if they so wish, particularly if they are not pushed into the solid fact that they won't hear differences due to level matching etc. I have tried to plainly state why I feel some don't hear differences others do - there is no arrogance in that, only what I believe - obviously that viewpoint can be manipulated to perpetuate anyone else's viewpoint they so wish.

I'm surprised at you Dave, as I don't see you as one of the main issues with this forum.

Well, I read more than I type on this forum. I always respect (Dave@ and DDC) your views on this site.. Two really good posters on the forum and as Dave@ says - main issues on the site - definitely not you two.

The problem with forum posting - this one and many other types - people can easily be misunderstood and we see what happens. It's not just you two - others as well - and it can all be a bit of a downward spiral as we have just seen in the last few postings.

Misunderstanding - nothing more - nothing less

peace tonky

But there is no miss-understanding.

I know exactly where dave@ is coming from.

How? Because I used to be exactly the same, I could here the differences between everything, whats more, when demonstrating, my listeners could hear the difference too...! Yep, I was that good...!

What happened? Hi-fi Choice is what happened. I was invited to take part in some listening tests that were, shock, horror, carried out blind and with levels matched.

Nothing, hi-fi wise, was quite the same again.

his an active dealer.. c'mon.. he cannot admit anyting against his business even if he knows he would faild to hear any differences in blind level matched test.. this conversation is highly predictable and no one learn anything from the other here and now because curiosity, willingness to learn, discover, knowledge sharing, ability to listen and scientific demistifying approach do not belong to this forum... it's a crowded waiting room.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The old Ferarri F360 v Fiat Punto 1.2cc both can do 50mph no problem but.......

Its stupid to compromise the better engineered, more powerful vehicle/equ.

Makes no sense and proves nothing.

We are still talking about comparing stuff arent we?

It's a disclaimer a cop out - just turn the things on and listen.

Refer to David@ and Tonkys post they make good sense.

I don't know if this is what Vlad is referring to, and I know we don't really see eye to eye on much, but this post sums it up.

 

[davedotco]

What happened? Hi-fi Choice is what happened. I was invited to take part in some listening tests that were, shock, horror, carried out blind and with levels matched.

Nothing, hi-fi wise, was quite the same again.

I've tried level matched listening tests.

Of the listening tests that you've undertaken, how many do you know - for 100% certain - were completely genuine? How do you know that everything was properly undertaken?

Just because you were part of it, doesn't mean it was totally genuine.

The tests in question were an attempt to replicate (in a modern way) the original tests carried out by Martin Colloms for the early issues of Hi-Fi Choice, those produced in the 'pocket size' format.

We were taken through the setup for the tests by the two people carrying them out. We could and did check out the equipment for ourselves and were able to ask questions as to how and why things were done as they were.

Despite the equipment being very diverse and desite knowing what the four amplifiers under test were, no one could reliably tell them apart.

Yes I suppose the test could have been rigged but for what reason? What would be the point?

I am not trying to prove anything here, just to exlain how, the 'night and day' differences that we all observe during sighted tests all but dissappear under controlled conditions. Again, I must reiterate, this is not the same thing as saying that everything sounds the same, far from it, but it does show that many of the differences that we hear are not caused by the things we think they are.

 

[Frank Harvey]

his an active dealer.. c'mon.. he cannot admit anyting against his business even if he knows he would faild to hear any differences in blind level matched test.. this conversation is highly predictable and no one learn anything from the other here and now because curiosity, willingness to learn, discover, knowledge sharing, ability to listen and scientific demistifying approach do not belong to this forum... it's a crowded waiting room.

Sorry, your English doesn't come across well.

I may be posting as an "active dealer", but my opinions are my own, and I wouldn't say anything I would be prepared to back up myself. Any claims about hearing difference are my own opinions, nothing to do with "business". I've said before, I have been party to blind listening tests in the past.

"Crowded waiting room"? Please do elaborate.