We would usually recommend spending more on the CD than the amp or speakers. Is this good advice?

[steve_1979]

I suggest Tilting at Windmills.

You learn something new everyday.

 

[CnoEvil]

I suggest Tilting at Windmills.

You learn something new everyday.

Not on here you, you don't! *wink*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

Not really, as I have a certain level I'll listen to stuff at - as we all do - so I wouldn't have been listening at a higher level with the Chord, depsite its output being higher.

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

I'm with David@ with this 100%.

Its what we all do. No one sits there with measuring kit wired up to their stuff.

It's a stupid suggestion - exactly as his reply suggest we all have a level.

I've argued level matching is stupid because not all equ is equal.

Yes initially loudness may well win but we will all settle down to what's 'comfortable' and will assess objectively what's 'right' and what's 'better' probably given time, getting the SPL bang on too.

I mean c'mon.....!

your approach to the subject of evaluating audio components suggest that you are generaly a good client of hifi stores and dealers can succesfuly use in front of you simple trick like ' if this component is louder therefore it's better' ( plus the price knowledge as it plays huge role in evaluating given component)... when the voltage of two dacs is matched, amplifier loudness is set equally and with an A/B switch under your fingers, only then any valid comparission between two dac can be made.?

this measuring tools are cheap and easy accesible. but you are free to spend £1000 on a dac and glorify it using all poetry available while all it's done to it is voltage output set higher than the other dac so it sounds 'better'

 

What!!??

 

[davedotco]

Wouldn't this level mismatch only become apparent when doing direct A vs B comparisons and switching between components immediately?

If there were an appreciable amount of time between listening to A and B (enough time to disconnect a DAC and re-connect another) then our hearing wouldn't have retained (or 'remembered') the original levels if they were similar.

I seem to remember the same people who explained the importance of level matching also explaining that we forget sounds very quickly. IIRC it's just a matter of a few seconds.

So do we retain (or remember) sound levels better than we remember sound quality after long enough intervals?

This really is the proverbial can of worms. The above comments are logical and sensible but there is more going on than meets the eye.

If you are going to do direct comparisons then level matching and blind listening are the only way to produce a viable result that translates out of the listening room. That is it is the only result that can be reliably recommended to a third party, subjective impressions are just that, impressions.

The interesting thing is whether the idea of more long term evaluation of components have any value. As has been explained above, long term audio memory is unreliable, what we appear to react to are our first impressions. If this is positive, as would be the case with a higher output device, this impression will stay with you during further listening.

 

[Vladimir]

if you have time and you're ready to shake your thinking about audio ( and have time) go ahead ( you have to be registered user to access videos or audio files)

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?1684-Comparing-loudspeakers-side-by-side-using-the-A-B-switchover-box-(video-talkthrough)

He played Poison - Every Rose Has It's Thorn, which makes the test not valid.

 

[lpv]

would you dare to explain why you think measuring audio is a stupid suggestion?

 

[Vladimir]

Even after two digital sources are level metched you could still get differences if the manufacturer didn't design a neutral and flat frequency response. One step further would be to EQ each unit flat and then have an ABX test. Only then you can be sure any audible differences are from jitter, noise, resolution etc. - the things the manufacturers advertise and audiophiles buy as upgrades.

 

[lindsayt]

I think this level matching thing is a load of old nonsense.

When comparing two components - CD players or whatever - try to level match them.

Then after comparing the first track, play the one you think sounds better at a slightly lower volume for the second track.

If it still sounds better, chances are it is better.

If it sounds worse now, chances are the differences between them are not important - in which case the cheaper one wins.

 

[lpv]

alan shaw on his forum keep saying same thing all over again ( last 10 years I guess) about importance of volume/ voltage matching prior to evaluating any audio components and still has posters there completely not understanding the subject. I have no time or willngness to go further into this now and here. you can all go on harbeth forum and have a read. I went step further and test it myself. after reading harbeth forum I was curious and wanted to try it. I've completed all relevant tools. I know how it works and I heard results myself. got no time to open your eyes or convert anybody *drinks*

 

[Frank Harvey]

3-4 seconds??

Wow that's fast. - Given 3-4 seconds, how can fast switching be of any practical use when comparing components?

Yeah, after 3-4 seconds, I forget how good my system sounds...

 

[tonky]

No direct A/B comparison? o/

Nope, no need, as I as very familiar with my own system I had owned for many years.

+1 for sure. The less variables the better.

tonky

 

[Frank Harvey]

No direct A/B comparison? o/

Nope, no need, as I was very familiar with my own system I had owned for many years.

 

[MeanandGreen]

... Really does leave me flabbergasted at times.

How anyone can question measuring audio as opposed to just listening. Or how people fail to see how the accuracy of level matched A/B testing vs just playing one source and then the other and relying on memory, first impressions, expectation bias and audibly set levels etc... etc... is totally beyond me.

Is common sence really so rare these days?

Seriously the Hi Fi press and the boutique manufacturers really have succeeded in pushing BS to unprecedented levels.

 

[Frank Harvey]

If our memory is only good for 3-4 seconds, then there's not much point in anything is there? How do we remember what out other half sounds like? How do we remember what our mother and father sound like? Familiarity. And that's what we have with our own systems.

 

[tonky]

... Really does leave me flabbergasted at times.

How anyone can question measuring audio as opposed to just listening. Or how people fail to see how the accuracy of level matched A/B testing vs just playing one source and then the other and relying on memory, first impressions, expectation bias and audibly set levels etc... etc... is totally beyond me.

Is common sence really so rare these days?

Seriously the Hi Fi press and the boutique manufacturers really have succeeded in pushing BS to unprecedented levels.

I sit and listen to good music - I respect specifications and measurements but I am not into measuring - I judge good equipment by listening. If people use measurements that's fine by me.

tonky

 

[CnoEvil]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

 

[manicm]

'garbage in, garbage out' was a very true idiom, technically it's still not wrong, but digital raised the bottom line so much that there's really no such thing as garbage any more in the digital domain. Plug a decent £100 pair of headphones into an iPod and you're getting sound quality that is leagues ahead of that from 'stereos' and midi systems from a generation ago.

Um, the last 2 ipod classics sounded pants i.e. not good. And why would they, especially since Apple inserted inferior dacs in these later generations?

 

[davedotco]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

For someone as willfully and deliberately uninformed as your self, that is highly amusing.

I blame the parents.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I sit and listen to good music - I respect specifications and measurements but I am not into measuring - I judge good equipment by listening. If people use measurements that's fine by me.

tonky

I think you picked up on my first 2 sentences and that's about it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

For someone as willfully and deliberately uninformed as your self, that is highly amusing.

I blame the parents.

Do elaborate. But don't expect any reply that is any different to what I have said already.

What is it you're having a problem with?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

would you dare to explain why you think measuring audio is a stupid suggestion?

Sure.....

Not all kit is even. They are not designed to be.

The old Ferarri F360 v Fiat Punto 1.2cc both can do 50mph no problem but.......

Its stupid to compromise the better engineered, more powerful vehicle/equ.

Makes no sense and proves nothing.

We are still talking about comparing stuff arent we?

It's a disclaimer a cop out - just turn the things on and listen.

Refer to David@ and Tonkys post they make good sense.

 

[keeper of the quays]

'garbage in, garbage out' was a very true idiom, technically it's still not wrong, but digital raised the bottom line so much that there's really no such thing as garbage any more in the digital domain. Plug a decent £100 pair of headphones into an iPod and you're getting sound quality that is leagues ahead of that from 'stereos' and midi systems from a generation ago.

Um, the last 2 ipod classics sounded pants i.e. not good. And why would they, especially since Apple inserted inferior dacs in these later generations?

i think the later ipod dacs ok! Cirrus ones i think? The wolfson dacs were better..the major has a point re sound of ipod compared to er..matsui midi system? Unfair comparison? Sanyo? Sony? The sound of ipods or any portable modern device is amazing! Even on cheap earphones! (the quality of modern headphones is quite something) i have a ipod shuffle and the sound and the amount of songs..compared to c90 cassette? Lol...try streaming hd music on your phone from youtube..into your hifi then stream from ipod! Mmm? Sounds bad ipod..sounds fab..i have samsung and lumia phones..lumia esp horrid dac..samsung better..ipod trounces both! In my humble opinion..

 

[lindsayt]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

For someone as willfully and deliberately uninformed as your self, that is highly amusing.

I blame the parents.

Hey, what's with the ad hominem personal insult, DDC?

Stop it!

Please.

 

[lpv]

I suspect that the OP has long since found another hobby.

That's usually the intention of the trolls

For someone as willfully and deliberately uninformed as your self, that is highly amusing.

I blame the parents.

+ 1