We would usually recommend spending more on the CD than the amp or speakers. Is this good advice?

[Thompsonuxb]

Just to clarify - the differences between digital sources are generally smaller than that of analogue sources, but there can still be quite big differences between digital sources. After adding a Chord Qute EX to Audiolab 8200AP I had at the time (about three years ago) and using it instead of the Audiolab's internal DAC, I was gobsmacked at the difference between listening to Napster via Sonos ZP90.

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

Now this is a sh#t question.

I mean why would he do that.....why!!!?

 

[steve_1979]

Clicky

 

[lpv]

Just to clarify - the differences between digital sources are generally smaller than that of analogue sources, but there can still be quite big differences between digital sources. After adding a Chord Qute EX to Audiolab 8200AP I had at the time (about three years ago) and using it instead of the Audiolab's internal DAC, I was gobsmacked at the difference between listening to Napster via Sonos ZP90.

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

Now this is a sh#t question.

I mean why would he do that.....why!!!?

I've commented that in the lawless level world of home audio equipment, where there are no reference levels (reference voltages) which represent an agreed loudness of music, there is plenty of potential for electrical mis-matching of equipment where the output of one equipment is too quiet or too loud for the following equipment, with the potential for audio signal degradation. The DIN standard made a serious effort to normalise and standardise levels between equipment but that seems to have been abandoned with the consequence that equipment (voltage) matching in consumer audio is a free-for-all. It's a wonder it works at all.

However, in the recording or broadcast studio, levels are very carefully controlled and understood relative to the audio content they carry, and the entire environment with its many electronic equipments (microphones, mixing consoles, tape recorders, hard disc recorders, sound effects units, limiters, compressors, external inputs from OB trucks via satellite, ear-feeds to presenters, clean feeds to off-site contributors, telephone contributor feeds, ISDN line audio in/outs, feeds to the transmission chain via digital distribution, outputs to CD mastering recorders, LP cutting, etc. etc.). Professional sound people work to a common voltage standard throughout their studio and transmission operation. That means that any single item of equipment can be plugged into any other, and be guaranteed not to overload, clip or distort, or be so quiet that there is noticeable hiss.

Take just as an example, the notes in the service manual for one of my Studer tape recorders, attached. It defines a number of voltage levels; before the unit is ready for operation, the user has to calibrate the recorder. It's not a trivial matter. It means that he must place on it an expensive calibration tape made by a specialist company on which a precise and known amount of magnetism represents a music signal (pure tones, actually). Once that tape is replayed, and depending upon which calibration tape and magnetic flux standard the studio is using, the output voltage of the tape machine is set. Once the replay level is set to the international standard, the record side of the same machine can be similarly calibrated such that a defined input voltage generates a certain magnetic flux on the recording tape, which in turn delivers a defined voltage output upon replay. This is the only sure way to ascertain interchangeability of audio between equipment: prior calibration to known, external standards.

The same logic equally applies at home. If you combine CD player A with preamp B driving power amp C, and you do not calibrate the voltages passing between A, B and C relative to the absolute maximum voltage that the loudest audio represents, you cannot possibly expect a truly high fidelity sound: there are two many compounding factors that will get in the way, such as clipping, where the following equipment runs out of headroom. It makes no sense at all to purchase audio electronics unless you can be sure of the audio voltage it outputs relative to the loudest musical information that it is conveying. ... and if we look inside a piece of professional audio equipment, we see the gain structure from the input sockets, through the various circuit functions to the output sockets. This is most conveniently shown on graph paper, where we can see the levels at various points. See the attached signal flow through a Studer pro tape recorder for the record and replay elements.

None of this prudently implemented gain structure[/i] exists in home audio. The erroneous assumption is that anything can be plugged into anything. Whilst that may literally be true on a physical level, (phono plugs fit phono sockets) there is no guarantee whatever that the voltage levels are optimal for hifi sound. Most likely, they will be far too high.

Alan Shaw

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Just to clarify - the differences between digital sources are generally smaller than that of analogue sources, but there can still be quite big differences between digital sources. After adding a Chord Qute EX to Audiolab 8200AP I had at the time (about three years ago) and using it instead of the Audiolab's internal DAC, I was gobsmacked at the difference between listening to Napster via Sonos ZP90.

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

Now this is a sh#t question.

I mean why would he do that.....why!!!?

?

I've commented that in the lawless level world of home audio equipment, where there are no reference levels (reference voltages) which represent an agreed loudness of music, there is plenty of potential for electrical mis-matching of equipment where the output of one equipment is too quiet or too loud for the following equipment, with the potential for audio signal degradation. The DIN standard made a serious effort to normalise and standardise levels between equipment but that seems to have been abandoned with the consequence that equipment (voltage) matching in consumer audio is a free-for-all. It's a wonder it works at all.?

However, in the recording or broadcast studio, levels are very carefully controlled and understood relative to the audio content they carry, and the entire environment with its many electronic equipments (microphones, mixing consoles, tape recorders, hard disc recorders, sound effects units, limiters, compressors, external inputs from OB trucks via satellite, ear-feeds to presenters, clean feeds to off-site contributors, telephone contributor feeds, ISDN line audio in/outs, feeds to the transmission chain via digital distribution, outputs to CD mastering recorders, LP cutting, etc. etc.). Professional sound people work to a common voltage standard throughout their studio and transmission operation. That means that any single item of equipment can be plugged into any other, and be guaranteed not to overload, clip or distort, or be so quiet that there is noticeable hiss.

Take just as an example, the notes in the service manual for one of my Studer tape recorders, attached. It defines a number of voltage levels; before the unit is ready for operation, the user has to calibrate the recorder. It's not a trivial matter. It means that he must place on it an expensive calibration tape made by a specialist company on which a precise and known amount of magnetism represents a music signal (pure tones, actually). Once that tape is replayed, and depending upon which calibration tape and magnetic flux standard the studio is using, the output voltage of the tape machine is set. Once the replay level is set to the international standard, the record side of the same machine can be similarly calibrated such that a defined input voltage generates a certain magnetic flux on the recording tape, which in turn delivers a defined voltage output upon replay. This is the only sure way to ascertain interchangeability of audio between equipment: prior calibration to known, external standards.

The same logic equally applies at home. If you combine CD player A with preamp B driving power amp C, and you do not calibrate the voltages passing between A, B and C relative to the absolute maximum voltage that the loudest audio represents, you cannot possibly expect a truly high fidelity sound: there are two many compounding factors that will get in the way, such as clipping, where the following equipment runs out of headroom. It makes no sense at all to purchase audio electronics unless you can be sure of the audio voltage it outputs relative to the loudest musical information that it is conveying.

?

... and if we look inside a piece of professional audio equipment, we see the gain structure from the input sockets, through the various circuit functions to the output sockets. This is most conveniently shown on graph paper, where we can see the levels at various points. See the attached signal flow through a Studer pro tape recorder for the record and replay elements.

None of this prudently implemented gain structure exists in home audio. The erroneous assumption is that anything can be plugged into anything. Whilst that may literally be true on a physical level, (phono plugs fit phono sockets) there is no guarantee whatever that the voltage levels are optimal for hifi sound. Most likely, they will be far too high.

Alan Shaw

?

 

This Allan Shaw.....does he wear Old Spice?

 

[Frank Harvey]

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

I owned and used the Audiolab for about 4 years, and I know what my system sounds like. I came to my conclusions via general listening, although it was obvious the difference the Qute made as soon as I heard it.

 

[davedotco]

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

I owned and used the Audiolab for about 4 years, and I know what my system sounds like. I came to my conclusions via general listening, although it was obvious the difference the Qute made as soon as I heard it.

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

It would appear that there was no attempt to do that.

I am not disputing that the Chord gave a subjective improvement in sound quality, but for the difference between 2 compedent dacs to be 'obvious', then something is probably faulty.

In this case, your methodology and your conclusions.

 

[MajorFubar]

Your 'digital is digital' is a nonesense. I've told you.

I've not said that ANYWHERE in this thread. Which proves you just don't read ANYTHING I type. I'm wasting valuable minutes of my life responding lucidly to you. I'm always happy to share experience and knowledge with anyone who wants to listen, but I've had it with sharing it with people who don't want to hear. You used to tell people to be open minded, but you've got the most closed-in myopic views of anyone on the forum.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Your 'digital is digital' is a nonesense. I've told you.

I've not said that ANYWHERE in this thread. Which proves you just don't read ANYTHING I type. I'm wasting valuable minutes of my life responding lucidly to you. I'm always happy to share experience and knowledge with anyone who wants to listen, but I've had it with sharing it with people who don't want to hear. You used to tell people to be open minded, but you've got the most closed-in myopic views of anyone on the forum.

Heeeee gaaads....

Stop with the bellyaching Major.....

What!?

Now you are dropping the word 'comparatively' in your post.......shthhhhh.

Honestly.....

 

[Thompsonuxb]

did you equal voltages of both devices and did you level match loudness on both devices or was it pure subjective judge?

I owned and used the Audiolab for about 4 years, and I know what my system sounds like. I came to my conclusions via general listening, although it was obvious the difference the Qute made as soon as I heard it.

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

It would appear that there was no attempt to do that.?

I am not disputing that the Chord gave a subjective improvement in sound quality, but for the difference between 2 compedent dacs to be 'obvious', then something is probably faulty.

In this case, your methodology and your conclusions.

........ *ACUTE*

 

[Frank Harvey]

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

Not really, as I have a certain level I'll listen to stuff at - as we all do - so I wouldn't have been listening at a higher level with the Chord, depsite its output being higher.

I am not disputing that the Chord gave a subjective improvement in sound quality, but for the difference between 2 compedent dacs to be 'obvious', then something is probably faulty.

The Chord gave quite a noticable increase in sound quality over the DAC in the Audiolab - not level - actual quality. The Chord DAC gave a far better presentation of compressed music (as it did with Napster), which is noticable at any volume/output level. The characteristics of the sound via Napster were more like CD quality.

 

[Vladimir]

This Allan Shaw.....does he wear Old Spice?

My bet is on Brute.

 

[matt49]

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

Not really, as I have a certain level I'll listen to stuff at - as we all do - so I wouldn't have been listening at a higher level with the Chord, depsite its output being higher.

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

 

[chebby]

Wouldn't this level mismatch only become apparent when doing direct A vs B comparisons and switching between components immediately?

If there were an appreciable amount of time between listening to A and B (enough time to disconnect a DAC and re-connect another) then our hearing wouldn't have retained (or 'remembered') the original levels if they were similar.

I seem to remember the same people who explained the importance of level matching also explaining that we forget sounds very quickly. IIRC it's just a matter of a few seconds.

So do we retain (or remember) sound levels better than we remember sound quality after long enough intervals?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

Not really, as I have a certain level I'll listen to stuff at - as we all do - so I wouldn't have been listening at a higher level with the Chord, depsite its output being higher.

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

I'm with David@ with this 100%.

Its what we all do. No one sits there with measuring kit wired up to their stuff.

It's a stupid suggestion - exactly as his reply suggest we all have a level.

I've argued level matching is stupid because not all equ is equal.

Yes initially loudness may well win but we will all settle down to what's 'comfortable' and will assess objectively what's 'right' and what's 'better' probably given time, getting the SPL bang on too.

I mean c'mon.....!

 

[matt49]

Wouldn't this level mismatch only become apparent when doing direct A vs B comparisons and switching between components immediately?

If there were an appreciable amount of time between listening to A and B (enough time to disconnect a DAC and re-connect another) then our hearing wouldn't have retained (or 'remembered') the original levels if they were similar.

I seem to remember the same people who explained the importance of level matching also explaining that we forget sounds very quickly. IIRC it's just a matter of a few seconds.

So do we retain (or remember) sound levels better than we remember sound quality after long enough intervals?

What's at stake here is the impression you get when first switching the components. The immediate impression of changing to a new component is what really makes a difference in our judgements, and that can be affacted by different levels.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

I wasn't doing a direct A/B comparison, so level matching isn't an issue.

 

[lpv]

The fact that the Chord Dac has a measurably higher output than the Audiolab would account for the 'obvious difference' unless measures are taken to match the analog signal levels.

Not really, as I have a certain level I'll listen to stuff at - as we all do - so I wouldn't have been listening at a higher level with the Chord, depsite its output being higher.

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

I'm with David@ with this 100%.

Its what we all do. No one sits there with measuring kit wired up to their stuff.

It's a stupid suggestion - exactly as his reply suggest we all have a level.

I've argued level matching is stupid because not all equ is equal.

Yes initially loudness may well win but we will all settle down to what's 'comfortable' and will assess objectively what's 'right' and what's 'better' probably given time, getting the SPL bang on too.

I mean c'mon.....!

your approach to the subject of evaluating audio components suggest that you are generaly a good client of hifi stores and dealers can succesfuly use in front of you simple trick like ' if this component is louder therefore it's better' ( plus the price knowledge as it plays huge role in evaluating given component)... when the voltage of two dacs is matched, amplifier loudness is set equally and with an A/B switch under your fingers, only then any valid comparission between two dac can be made.

this measuring tools are cheap and easy accesible. but you are free to spend £1000 on a dac and glorify it using all poetry available while all it's done to it is voltage output set higher than the other dac so it sounds 'better'

 

[Vladimir]

Echoic memory is clocked at 3-4 seconds, after that it becomes an impression and the actual sound clip fades away. So fast AB switching really helps during tests.

When you compare two sources A & B, and A is 10% louder than B, you may not notice it as quantitatively louder but qualitatively better (clearer, more discernable, detailed) in your impressions after the echoic memory fades out. But if you had a switch you may just notice the differences are nothing but slight increase in loudnes.

 

[tonky]

Careful listening in the comfort of your own home /(audio retailer if you're happy there). It must be over an extended period of time. Level matching - if that's what you like to do - personally I use music I really know with the volume set by my own ears. If you listen to your own music in a set environment (home) over a lengthy period of time that's what gives me the best results.

If someone prefers to level match by output values and then do swift A/B that's fine too. Freedom of choice all round - it certainly has its place too.

tonky

 

[matt49]

Dave's point stands: you can't reliably set levels by ear.

I wasn't doing a direct A/B comparison, so level matching isn't an issue.

No direct A/B comparison? o/

 

[CnoEvil]

Digital Sources are like Politicians...don't be fooled, don't trust what you hear; in fact better avoid them altogether, just in case you form an opinion which is totally wrong.

Find an alternative means of wasting your time that is less controversial....I suggest Tilting at Windmills.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Echoic memory is clocked at 3-4 seconds, after that it becomes an impression and the actual sound clip fades away. So fast AB switching really helps during tests.

When you compare two sources A & B, and A is 10% louder than B, you may not notice it as quantitatively louder but qualitatively better (clearer, more discernable, detailed) in your impressions after the echoic memory fades out. But if you had a switch you may just notice the differences are nothing but slight increase in loudnes.

3-4 seconds??

Wow that's fast. - Given 3-4 seconds, how can fast switching be of any practical use when comparing components?

 

[Vladimir]

Echoic memory is clocked at 3-4 seconds, after that it becomes an impression and the actual sound clip fades away. So fast AB switching really helps during tests.

When you compare two sources A & B, and A is 10% louder than B, you may not notice it as quantitatively louder but qualitatively better (clearer, more discernable, detailed) in your impressions after the echoic memory fades out. But if you had a switch you may just notice the differences are nothing but slight increase in loudnes.

3-4 seconds??

Wow that's fast. - Given 3-4 seconds, how can fast switching be of any practical use when comparing components?

Read the linked article. In relaxed conditions without interferences some studies managed to achieve as high as 10-20 seconds. But in a hi-fi shop I doubt you could swing more than those 3-4 seconds.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Echoic memory is clocked at 3-4 seconds, after that it becomes an impression and the actual sound clip fades away. So fast AB switching really helps during tests.

When you compare two sources A & B, and A is 10% louder than B, you may not notice it as quantitatively louder but qualitatively better (clearer, more discernable, detailed) in your impressions after the echoic memory fades out. But if you had a switch you may just notice the differences are nothing but slight increase in loudnes.

3-4 seconds??

Wow that's fast. - Given 3-4 seconds, how can fast switching be of any practical use when comparing components?

Read the linked article. In relaxed conditions without interferences some studies managed to achieve as high as 10-20 seconds. But in a hi-fi shop I doubt you could swing more than those 3-4 seconds.

....Which makes it practically useless.

 

[lpv]

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?1684-Comparing-loudspeakers-side-by-side-using-the-A-B-switchover-box-(video-talkthrough)