Vintage/old Amps

[Ant8519]

hi all

my own take on this is as follows. I know nothing about the OP's speakers, but I own an alpha 8p and 8r combo, playing through acoustic energy ae109's. Playing past 11 o'clock would upset my neighbours neighbours neighbours. Although I do sometimes. I experience no loss of quality until after 12 o'clock which is so loud as to be ear damaging anyway.

I would rather suspect that the OP's amps would benefit from servicing and that he should borrow some other speakers and/or cables to rule out them as the cause before spending more money My brother had his alpha 7 amp service for £20 (!) after the volume control got a bit crackly and a line input became a bit unreliable and it is now good as new according to him.

When new I personally feel the 8r and 8p combo bettered the a400, but I love the smooth arcam sound and at mega volumes with some types of music maybe something else might be more suitable, but unless you live on a remote farm (and are profoundly deaf) then do you really need those levels?

Also if you need more power then if I remember rightly the setup could have a third 8p attached, although I don't know if this reduces the 8r to preamp or whether it introduces extra power to the system? Either way it may be a very economical upgrade...

Keep an open mind before buying old untested kit which would probably not improve upon your current setup if it is working properly.

cheers, Ant

 

[ear]

I still say it but you guys dont believe me....the pioneer a-209r is great! better than the S-700 a little better than the CA840.but it is so cheap you completely ignore it and think it's a bad product

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks very much for all your replies! I like the look of the Pioneer SA-9800. The only one ive been able to find is on fleabay and the joker has a buy it now of a grand on it!

I really like the idea of buying vintage but have also been looking at the Musical Fidelity A3 and X series. Has anyone any experience of these or am I better going older?

 

[matthewpiano]

Somehow I don't think the OP's speakers are in question here.

I think the issue is that the OP needs a better amp than the Arcams that can keep a grip on the ATCs much better. Although I personally think the Pioneer A400 is better than the 8r/8p I don't think its right for this task. Smaller amps like the A-209r (very good though it may be) certainly aren't.

Looking back at this thread I think the OP might be in danger of selling the ATCs short and I rather hope that Rick from Musicraft will come along and provide some further ideas based on being very familiar with the speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

The last thing I want to do is sell the ATCs short. Im just looking for something to tide me over till im able to get something along the lines of a Quad 909, Primare or something in that league. But if I get something that I really like I'd be happy to stick with it. Having checked with the other half I could stretch up to £400.

 

[Ant8519]

Just read the review on your speakers. They are not the most sensitive so I can better understand the need for you to run at high amplifier settings, seems a v expensive speaker to match with a realtively budget amp though?

I still feel you will really struggle to significantly better the arcam for 400 quid, unless of course you sell the arcams and use that money too. You might get £250 or more for your amps so this might increase your budget to a level that would be more realistic...

...I'm thinking arcam 10 and 10p!

Or maybe modern rotel pre an power would more suit the speakers? (much as I love arcam)

Forget the "popular" stuff (naim, cyrus, etc) on your budget as pound for pound it won't match the power of the 10/10p or a good rotel combo...

To be brutally honest you might be better just keeping your cash 'til your circumstances change and holding out for the stuff you really want...

cheers, Ant

 

[Anonymous]

bobbyg81:

Thanks very much for all your replies! I like the look of the Pioneer SA-9800. The only one ive been able to find is on fleabay and the joker has a buy it now of a grand on it!

I really like the idea of buying vintage but have also been looking at the Musical Fidelity A3 and X series. Has anyone any experience of these or am I better going older?

as regards the Pioneer Sa-9800 ... I waited 3 months before finding one ... dont pay more than £300 .... nice thing is you can buy them from anywhere in the world (they sell for pretty cheap in the USA) and they work on any voltage (so you can buy one from the usa, however P&P will be a bit steep)

if you set your sites on one, and are impatient to get an amp in the meantime, get a Pioneer A-400 (£70-£130) until you get an SA-9800 ...

then you can sell the A-400 again on ebay for the same price (or more) .... but you will most prob keep the A400 aswell as they are pretty good IMHO

 

[Anonymous]

I know that any amp up to about 400 pounds isn't going to be the best solution for powering the ATC's but i am just looking for something to better the sound a little in the mean time. My thinking is that by buying something high powered and second hand will hopefully be a short term but worthwhile improvement. It shouldn't be a waste of money either as I would be able to re coup some if not all of the costs.

 

[matthewpiano]

Ant8519:
Just read the review on your speakers. They are not the most sensitive so I can better understand the need for you to run at high amplifier settings, seems a v expensive speaker to match with a realtively budget amp though?

I still feel you will really struggle to significantly better the arcam for 400 quid, unless of course you sell the arcams and use that money too. You might get £250 or more for your amps so this might increase your budget to a level that would be more realistic...

...I'm thinking arcam 10 and 10p!

Or maybe modern rotel pre an power would more suit the speakers? (much as I love arcam)

Forget the "popular" stuff (naim, cyrus, etc) on your budget as pound for pound it won't match the power of the 10/10p or a good rotel combo...

To be brutally honest you might be better just keeping your cash 'til your circumstances change and holding out for the stuff you really want...

cheers, Ant

I'm not convinced that the Arcam stuff is all that special and I think most of their gear is completely over-rated. The Alpha line (8, 9, and 10) was okay but I've never found it to be anything special. An Alpha 9 or 10 combination would clearly be an improvement over the 8/8p, but I'm still not convinced its good enough. Sticking with Arcam the DIVA stuff that replaced the Alpha range was pretty poor value for money until you get into A85 territory. That amp may well be worth considering. Some of the FMJ amps are also quite nice and an A32 could be well worth trying, with a mind to adding a P35 later on.

I still think one of the big Japanese amps would be best here, but its just a matter of selecting the right one. A Pioneer SA-9800 would seem to be a good idea and I think its well worth pursuing even if you have to be patient. The guy trying to sell one for £1k has quite clearly been 'smoking his socks' (as dim_span said in an earlier thread), but I'm sure a good one will come along.

As an alternative a Pioneer A605r is well worth pursuing, offering many of the qualities of the A400 but with more power and flexibility.

£400 also takes you towards used Naim Nait 5i territory and this, again, would be a big step forward in terms of its ability to control the ATCs.

 

[Anonymous]

If you want an Sa-9800 ... here is one in west London (private sale) ... seller is asking £395 ... offer less and haggle ... (you might get it for £320-£350) ... seller states its in mint condition ... add placed 2 days ago

http://www.adverts.hififorsale.com/vardet.asp

 

[PJPro]

Mightn't it be better to get some cheaper speakers your amp can drive? You might actually end up with some much needed spare cash if you get a good price for your current speakers? Just a thought.

 

[Ant8519]

Have to disagree matthew, the alpha range are thought by many to be amongst arcams best offerings and were widely positively reviewed. Clearly I have an element of bias but googling old reviews from various sources always carries more weight than one off opinions...

Another factor that I like about them is their build and component quality, again backed up by contemporary reviews. I suspect their used value on ebay etc is helped by the perceived quality and potential longevity that people seem to associate with them.

I also think of it like used cars - big powerful rocking amps are often bought by people who run them at high levels and so they aren't necessarily the best second hand buy as they have probably had a hard life, a bit like buying a gti from a boy racer. Big powerful but more subtle amps tend to be bought by people who don't overload them and therefore make good used buys, like larger engined saloons owned by grownups.

Obviously this analogy is limited and doesn't really apply to the OP by the sounds of it!

Personally I think he needs a more powerful integrated and power amp combo. As the Op states - up to 11 they sound great - so the setup he has now makes a sound he likes but only up to a certain volume. To me it makes sense to stick with more of what you like, hence look for 10/10p....

 

[Anonymous]

I definately wont be selling the speakers. That would be a stepback and I certainly dont want to do that.I was given the ATCs from a family member and wouldnt have bought them topair with my Arcams. I had a set of B&W 601s2s and when the chance of the ATCs came up there was no way I could pass them up. They are a huge improvement obviously. The sound at low volumes is amazing. Just need a bit more power to take control at medium to high volumes!

 

[matthewpiano]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that the Alpha stuff is decent (indeed I've recommended it before in certain situations). I'm simply saying that I never thought them to be anything out of the ordinary. For me the Arcam name doesn't really carry any great pull - I've had too much of their gear that has left me feeling flat and uninspired. I'm not quite sure about the build quality point either. Source selector switches seem to be a common and expensive failure on the whole Alpha line and until you get to the FMJ stuff the Arcam gear doesn't exactly feel bomb-proof.

However, you do make a very very good point. The OP is, as you suggest, clearly happy with the basic sound of his current amplification. With this in mind I think your suggestion is probably the safest path, particularly if the OP isn't able to audition any purchase.

At the end of the day there are no rights and wrongs and its all down to personal opinion. I still think, however, that some input from one of the dealers who has extensive experience of the ATCs (namely Rick from Musicraft) would be worth seeking.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

matthewpiano:Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that the Alpha stuff is decent (indeed I've recommended it before in certain situations). I'm simply saying that I never thought them to be anything out of the ordinary. For me the Arcam name doesn't really carry any great pull - I've had too much of their gear that has left me feeling flat and uninspired. I'm not quite sure about the build quality point either. Source selector switches seem to be a common and expensive failure on the whole Alpha line and until you get to the FMJ stuff the Arcam gear doesn't exactly feel bomb-proof. However, you do make a very very good point. The OP is, as you suggest, clearly happy with the basic sound of his current amplification. With this in mind I think your suggestion is probably the safest path, particularly if the OP isn't able to audition any purchase. At the end of the day there are no rights and wrongs and its all down to personal opinion. I still think, however, that some input from one of the dealers who has extensive experience of the ATCs (namely Rick from Musicraft) would be worth seeking.

Hi guys

Thanks for your posts.

I still have a Pioneer A-400 amplifier and i can say that it is not an ideal match for ATC's SCM40 speakers.

bobbyg81 - an amp to seek out is the NAD C370. It will work well with the SCM40's.

The A-400 is rated at 50w/ch (8 ohms) and 70w/ch (4 ohms).

Btw, as nibbo has also discovered the A-400 works superbly well with Dynaudio speakers.

Thanks for kind words and for your support.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

MUSICRAFT:

matthewpiano:Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that the Alpha stuff is decent (indeed I've recommended it before in certain situations). I'm simply saying that I never thought them to be anything out of the ordinary. For me the Arcam name doesn't really carry any great pull - I've had too much of their gear that has left me feeling flat and uninspired. I'm not quite sure about the build quality point either. Source selector switches seem to be a common and expensive failure on the whole Alpha line and until you get to the FMJ stuff the Arcam gear doesn't exactly feel bomb-proof. However, you do make a very very good point. The OP is, as you suggest, clearly happy with the basic sound of his current amplification. With this in mind I think your suggestion is probably the safest path, particularly if the OP isn't able to audition any purchase. At the end of the day there are no rights and wrongs and its all down to personal opinion. I still think, however, that some input from one of the dealers who has extensive experience of the ATCs (namely Rick from Musicraft) would be worth seeking.

Hi guys

Thanks for your posts.

I still have a Pioneer A-400 amplifier and i can say that it is not an ideal match for ATC's SCM40 speakers.

bobbyg81 - an amp to seek out is the NAD C370. It will work well with the SCM40's.

The A-400 is rated at 50w/ch (8 ohms) and 70w/ch (4 ohms).

Btw, as nibbo has also discovered the A-400 works superbly well with Dynaudio speakers.

Thanks for kind words and for your support.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

Many thanks to everyone for their input.

I just come across these.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-X-ROTEL-RB-970BX-POWER-AMPS-EXCELLENT-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ290362425193QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?hash=item439af2ff69

Has anyone any idea if they would be suitable? If yes then whats a good price?

 

[the record spot]

These are okay power amps, but you should be able to get these for £150-200 assuming good condition.

As for going with the ATC speakers, I think you'd be better pooling your money for a more accomplished amp to be fair. They are good, but you might be better off looking at a beefier Rotel, or alternative brand's power amp (RB1072 for instance).

 

[gpi]

If the ATCs are not too sensitive, think quality watts not simply the amount quoted in a number. Fewer watts from a quality amp such as by Quad or Sugden will drive the speakers far better than a budget amp boasting higher watts ever will. Unfortunately better amps cost a lot more but your fine speakers deserve better than what you are currently looking at.

 

[Frank Harvey]

bobbyg81:The last thing I want to do is sell the ATCs short. Im just looking for something to tide me over till im able to get something along the lines of a Quad 909, Primare or something in that league. But if I get something that I really like I'd be happy to stick with it. Having checked with the other half I could stretch up to £400.Arcam's Alpha range was a very warm and smooth sounding range, which would actually sound great through the ATC's, so I'm surprised you're getting the grating treble. The only reason I can think you're getting that is that your amps just don't have the current drive for them - in other words they're working outside of it's comfortable paramaters. If a bi-amped Alpha amp and power amp isn't doing the job, I'd make your choice to replace them extremely carefully, as you'll just find yourself in the same position.

Personally, i was never a fan of the Pioneer A300 or A400.They sounded fine, and gave you a hint of what some more expensive amplification sounded like (neutral), but I just found them lifeless. I'd rather have a Rotel amp, which packs more of punch and has a bit more life too. But for my money, I'd look at a used Nait 5 or 5i. They'll sound so good on the end of this, I guarantee you'll be looking at Naim again when you properly upgrade.

 

[Anonymous]

I lovethe look of Naim equipment but I was under the impression the Nait 5 wouldnt be powerful enough. Is this more powerful than both my Arcams?If that is the case then I would be really interested. Unfortunately the chance of a demo are slim to none!!

I take it you have heard the Nait with the ATCs? What sort of sound should I expect? I definately favour musicality over digging up every bit of detail.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi bobbyg81

There is a NAD C370 on ebay UK at the moment. This is the amplifier i will still suggest that you consider using with your SCM40's as a stop gap without breaking the bank.

When you are ready to upgrade again than in addition to the Quad's an amplifier also worth serious consideration is ATC's SIA2-150 MK1 for use with the SCM40's. At the moment the SIA2-150 MK1's tend to sell for around the £1.2k - £1.5k.

I have used the C370 and the SIA2-150 MK1 amplifiers with SCM40's and they work superbly well.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

bobbyg81:I lovethe look of Naim equipment but I was under the impression the Nait 5 wouldnt be powerful enough. Is this more powerful than both my Arcams?If that is the case then I would be really interested. Unfortunately the chance of a demo are slim to none!!
I take it you have heard the Nait with the ATCs? What sort of sound should I expect? I definately favour musicality over digging up every bit of detail.The Naim will have more current capability than the Arcams. As for musicality, the Nait 5i is one of the best ones out there for under £1k, along with maybe something from Rega. We use the ATC's with Naim more than anything else as they tend to be a far better match than anything else. For SCM11's, I'd normally be recommending the Nait XS,as it's at this price point that amps get more out of the 11's, but the Nait 5i is one of the best ones if the budget doesn't stretch that far.

 

[Anonymous]

bobbyg81:

Thanks very much for all your replies! I like the look of the Pioneer SA-9800. The only one ive been able to find is on fleabay and the joker has a buy it now of a grand on it!

I really like the idea of buying vintage but have also been looking at the Musical Fidelity A3 and X series. Has anyone any experience of these or am I better going older?

Bobbyg81 .. if you are still after a Pioneer, here is a newly listed one on ebay ...

Pioneer SA-9500 ... ebay item 160374607190 ... on a buy it now of £275

a fair price, and seems in good condition ... to service/recap this unit will cost less than £100, but no need to recap/service straight away ... These are rated at 80 watts at 8 Ohm ... loads of reviews on google. If you are interested, be quick, as this will sell quickly at this price

 

[gpi]

You should change your username to ebay_scan, lol. Nice looking amp with lots a knobs to fiddle with.