Valve Vs Solid State amps

[plastic penguin]

My overriding memory about valve or tube amps was they were relatively low powered. So what is the main the difference between modern valve amps and Solid State?

My system has an "edge" to its presentation, not overly bright or abrasive, which is fabulous when playing live or unplugged stuff. I've always taken the stance that if it sounds good that's all matters, regardless of spec. But is there a genuine difference?

 

[Overdose]

They are certainly less efficient, using far more power, watt for watt, against solid state amps.

 

[Anonymous]

Valve amps driven to distortion produce even harmonics which are, well, harmonious to our ears (although are responsible to the 'lushness' we associate with valve amps) which means you can drive them hard and thes still sound good. Solid state's produce odd harmonics which sound discordious which is why they sound so naff when driven into clipping.

That is, of course, a gross simplification and engineering can correct or account for certain parts of it (like making high power solid state amps so you never drive them to clipping) so read into it what you will...

 

[Al ears]

Valve amps certainly where low powered and many still are. There are a few higher powered ones about today but tend to be very pricey. All tubes will have to be replaced at some stage which also increases the cost-of-ownership but many people are prepared to put up with this to get the sound they want.

The move by many speaker manufacturers towards smaller, less efficient speakers has pushed many towards solid-state amps.

I myself am in the process of changing to a valve power-amp system purely because I love the sound, particularly on vinyl replay, although ultimately it will mean a change of speakers too.

Yet another move to try and get past 'er indoors!

 

[plastic penguin]

The one thing that has choked me off valve amps in the past is the practical issues: Not so much a lack of power but changing of valves and the heat they tend to generate.

 

[tino]

I run my valve amp at quarter to a third volume and even with its modest power output (only 16W) it subjectively sounds fuller and louder than my SS amps. I think that a valve amp would make the "live or unplugged stuff" you like sound even more atmospheric and "real".

 

[CnoEvil]

Well conceived Valve amps don't have the "hard, brittle edginess that can afflict SS amps. If you value the emotion and the excitement of the music above all else, it may be the way to go. Carefully chosen SS can get close, but don't quite match this euphonious presentation, especially with mid-range (voices, violins etc)

They mostly don't have the over sugared presentation of the past. It's the SET ones that have the piddly power.

SS usually pulls ahead where powerful controlled bass and hard to drive speakers are a priority.

If possible try to get a listen sometime, as I think you might like it.

 

[plastic penguin]

Well conceived Valve amps don't have the "hard, brittle edginess that can afflict SS amps. If you value the emotion and the excitement of the music above all else, it may be the way to go. Carefully chosen SS can get close, but don't quite match this euphonious presentation, especially with mid-range (voices, violins etc)

They mostly don't have the over sugared presentation of the past. It's the SET ones that have the piddly power.

SS usually pulls ahead where powerful controlled bass and hard to drive speakers are a priority.

If possible try to get a listen sometime, as I think you might like it.

Interesting. When I heard the Leema with Spendor SA-1s vocals sounded pretty much spot-on. It's a shame that the major names (Rotel, Arcam, Roksan etc etc) don't produce valve amps. From what I've seen or read valve amps tend to be at the niche end of the market, thus tend to be outpriced by cheaper SS amps.

 

[FennerMachine]

I'm currently really happy with my system. But... I keep thinking of changing my power amps. Would older Quad valve amps such as Quad II's or similar be powerful enough to drive Spendor SA1's? I only listen at moderate volumes, very rarely at silly volumes levels, normally maximum of 8, sometimes 10 on my volume control (goes up to 22 with each setting from 6 onwards adding 2.5 decibels).

 

[FennerMachine]

Feeling very tempted to get some valve amps!

They sound exactly the type of amp I would like!

The Quad II's I was thinking of are the old ones that can be had for about £1000.00 for a pair.

I will look into the other makes you suggest though.

 

[bluedroog]

I use a valve pre in to a SS power amp and am very, very happy with the results. I use a Croft Micro 25 and a Quad 909. I really think I get the best of both worlds, all the emotion the valves bring (I’m using Mullards now rather than the stock) but also bags of power and the grip of the 140wpc Quad.

The Croft I got a line only version which is just £600 and I got an end of line 909 also for £600 (reduced), it destroys almost anything else I’ve ever heard. Shame my speakers can’t do them justice for the moment.

I know a few enjoy this configuration but I am surprised more don't try this route.

 

[the record spot]

PP, check out Icon Audio's site if you're interested. They're based in Leicester, offer an entry level 25-watt valve amp for around £500 and it'll get you started.

There's also the Easter Electric Minimax but that's only around 8-10w so your speakers would need to be pretty able to take it. Both would clock in around the £500 mark (the latter on the used market).

 

[plastic penguin]

Sice i use valve-amps (2005), i don't want to go back. Listening music has become an adventure almoast all the time. Of course sometimes some rythmic tight bass is missing. But the other side is a very lifelike sound with gorgeous vocals and space and dynamics in midfreq (where the core of the music is happening). No listening fatigue and with a modern amp, no dull sound.

There are 2 other technical differences when comparing ss and valves.

1. The valve-amp uses less ampstages (mostly only 2) which gives less phaseproblems and very direct sound.

2 The direct sound is also because of lesser feedback used in the valve-amp.

My speakers which were never known for use with valves have never sounded any better then now. I tried many ss-amps on them.

You could also use one single stereo-power valve-amp. Look e.g. at the Cayin's, or Prima Luna's. I would not go for the (too expensive) Quads. If you don't buy a SET amp the heat should be o.k.. Some 40 W, like mine is a lot of power!

Don't get me wrong I love the Leema and wouldn't change it unless it either died or I came into pots of money (the latter very unlikey), but haven't heard a valve amp for close on 15 years... many on here rate their virtues, hence the question.

 

[Rethep]

I think nobody wants to push you. Surely not me. Take your time.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think nobody wants to push you. Surely not me. Take your time.

Absolutely. Asking out of pure curiosity and it's nice to gain some knowledge on a type of amp that's unfamiliar to me.

Some companies produce hybrid, valve and SS, Vincent spring to mind. Is this to try and obtain the best of both worlds?

 

[Rethep]

Some say yes and some say no. The guy who sold me the Cayin, says nothing surpasses pure valve-amplification. He only sells valve-amps. I follow him considering the "pure musicality" i hear with valves. You should try and listen for yourself. If you like music with a lot of power, like dance, hard-rock, then pure valves might not give you the best sound.

Unison Unico is also a well known hybrid. A Creek Destiny (good MOSFET-amp) might also be an idea.

 

[Roby]

:? This make me think, don't know if it's possible me having an AMS an Alex the Jadis.

Midht be a fun experience using the Jadis as pré an the AMS as power amp.

 

[DIB]

Reading this thread makes me realise how very limited my hi-fi adventures over the years have been. To the best of my knowledge I have never knowingly heard a valve amp, yet the more I read these types of threads the more I would like to someday just to hear what the fuss (or not) is about.

.

 

[chebby]

PP, try to hear a Sugden A21 (solid state pure class A).

I've heard a couple in the past and they have a suprising amount of 'grunt' (far more than their 'paper power' figures would suggest).

You won't need valves and you won't need any other heating source in the living room

Beautiful sound and they come up on ebay for reasonable prices sometimes (they have been making them for 44 years so there are a lot of them around).

 

[Electro]

I have heard quite a few valve amps over the years and I can fully understand why so many people love the looks and the sound of the good ones but they have never really appealed to me or my wide taste in types and styles of music .

I still have vivid memories of hearing Audio note Ankoru mono blocks quite a few years ago absolutely amazing sound and real power and scale with high efficiency speakers but they are far beyond my reach financially

So I have chosen solid state amps from Electrocompaniet they have more power than any sane person would need but are capable of putting performers directly in front of me in a real space in a similar way to the best valve amps but will drive and control any speaker I choose .

It does not matter what you throw at them they just do it with no fuss no bother in a totally effortless manner , they just express the character of the music played without favour so I think I have the best of both the solid state and valve worlds

Ohh and no tube rolling ! all the options would drive me absolutely crazy, utter madness :wall:

 

[Roby]

PP, try to hear a Sugden A21 (solid state pure class A).

I've heard a couple in the past and they have a suprising amount of 'grunt' (far more than their 'paper power' figures would suggest).

You won't need valves and you won't need any other heating source in the living room

I have heard a few amps now SS & Tube an I can only agree. For me class A is what's come clossesd to tube in presentation terms. So oké it's not the same but is the best compromise if your music collection an taste is as large as mine it just perform better on rock, Electro,....

I heard the Jadis quit a lot now an no doubt on some music it is just better, but then the cass A is never that far behind, they other way arround.... well.... it's an other storry. Let's just keep it simple an say Class A pervorm better on the tube playground than tub does on class A playground. this is relativly simple explenation an let's just say you can always be surprised...so shure it's not an absolute... but IMO class A is just a better alrounder (i'm thinking Sugde ia4 & ams of course never hed the chance to audition the A21) But than again like said before in this tread it's really depend what your afther.

A honestly I have also been ilpressed by tube amps like in a demo with Alex of an hibryde audio reaseach system. I promes you that was exiting.....an powerfull .......but than the price was exiting to (70K)......an also I had e few gleses of wine ;-)....but I doubt the exitmint an powerfull feeling was only comming from the wine

[/quote]

they have been making them for 44 years so there are a lot of them around.

[/quote]

:O I'm truly impressed

 

[plastic penguin]

Reading this thread makes me realise how very limited my hi-fi adventures over the years have been. To the best of my knowledge I have never knowingly heard a valve amp, yet the more I read these types of threads the more I would like to someday just to hear what the fuss (or not) is about.

.

Pretty much the same. I wouldn't jack in my Leema for anything, unless it was totally astonishing for the money. I will get round to hearing either a valve or class A amp.

The amp I'd like to hear, apart from a Restek Challenger (not valve), is the Lavardin. But, as always, price is the issue.

 

[Anonymous]

After owning Mark Levinson, Krell, Jeff Rowland etc. I never wanna go back to solid state. I am listening to a Priboj poweramp ( modified ) and a Meridian 501 pre. I am really listening to music now instead of sound, maybe that is the best way to describe it. And underpowered ? Im driving 84 db speakers with ease. When a tubeamp uses good output transformers it can drive about anything.

 

[CnoEvil]

Personally I like to see threads like this, which, if nothing else, make people aware that there are excellent options out there, which might otherwise remain in the dark.

In order to convince anyone to put up with the extra hassle of owning tubes, they have to have something special about the way they sound......which in my opinion, they do.

Getting into SS Class A (as Chebby has rightly suggested) is also an excellent thing to consider, as it gives a great deal of the magic, without the hassle (except heat of course).....and a pre-owned Sugden A21 is a great place to start.

 

[Macspur]

Personally I like to see threads like this, which, if nothing else, make people aware that there are excellent options out there, which might otherwise remain in the dark.

In order to convince anyone to put up with the extra hassle of owning tubes, they have to have something special about the way they sound......which in my opinion, they do.

Getting into SS Class A (as Chebby has rightly suggested) is also an excellent thing to consider, as it gives a great deal of the magic, without the hassle (except heat of course).....and a pre-owned Sugden A21 is a great place to start.

Great thread. Yes, the A21 is where I started and can highly recommend it and the Masterclass is in a different ball park altogether.

Valves do interest me, but I'm really not sure if I could be bothered with the hastle... saying that I did spot a Graaf GM50 intergrated that I'd like to demo some time, either that or a Mastersound.

Mac