valve amplification

[gbhsi1]

Hi All,

I have never listened to valve amplification and feel like I'm missing a 'whole new' world of hi fi. Everywhere I look the units are quite pricey. Icon Audio has a starter unit for about £600 but it's 15w x 15w. That to me seems very low but how does it work? is that enough power to drive my neats? are there any other valves amps that are cheaper so I can get the 'velvety' experience?

 

[hoopsontoast]

How big is your room? Which neat speakers do you have?

 

[Anonymous]

Be careful!

Just like ss amps, there're good and bad tube amplifiers. In fact, not all valve projects are good. Some of them sound overcooked on top end (rolled-off sound) and lacks control on the botton (boomy bass).

As regards power, a 15wpc tube amplifier is likely to produce a SPL like a 25-30wpc ss model. Maybe a 8 ohm impedance / 90dB sensitivity loudspeaker model shall be enough for a small to medium room as long as you don't desire to shake your living room floor.

 

[bluedroog]

Have you considered going for a pre / power set-up? A valve pre-amp with a solid state power amp? This is the set-up I have an I’m delighted with the results. I have a Croft 25 (line only version) which is £600 partnered with a Quad 909 which I got end of line also for £600, personally I think it punches well above it’s price tag, I can’t wait to get some better speakers to do them justice.

I realise that is a fair bit above the price area you’re talking but it’s not a crazy price either considering I bought one at a time. That said as mentioned in another post you get good valve equipment and very poor valve equipment too, I’m really not sure I’d go near most of the budget valve stuff. I haven’t really heard much of the cheaply made Chinese stuff, you never know they might have some gems at very good prices.

When I was looking for a valve pre on a budget one suggestion was made to me which I was intrigued with but ultimately didn’t need to explore as I find the Croft ideal for me. But that was to use a valve headphone amp as a pre-amp into a power amp, there are some very good headphone amps in the £150-£250 (new) region, pick you self up a hefty used Rotel SS power amp or similar and you’re away for well under £500.

All that loveliness that tubes bring, plenty of SS power and flexibility in the future. Just another option for you….

 

[Anonymous]

Don't get tempted by Watts with Valves. I have seen a 2x30 Watt self made valve amp beat a 100 Watt krell in drive and headroom. When the valve amp is designed good and has quality output transformers, it will drive just any speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

I like the Pure Sound amps, both the A30 and the budget A10:
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/amplifiers/pure-sound-a10-673754/review

To get the most out of the A10, you will need sensitive speakers from the likes of Audio Note.

 

[plastic penguin]

In a practical sense I'd stick with ss. valve or tube amps do overheat a lot quicker, and as someone else pointed out and, generally speaking, they are fairly low powered.

 

[shafesk]

Hi All,

I have never listened to valve amplification and feel like I'm missing a 'whole new' world of hi fi. Everywhere I look the units are quite pricey. Icon Audio has a starter unit for about £600 but it's 15w x 15w. That to me seems very low but how does it work? is that enough power to drive my neats? are there any other valves amps that are cheaper so I can get the 'velvety' experience?

Hey gbhsi1, I think I can relate to you with regards to valves. I too have thought that I was missing out on something before owning one. It's an experience not for everyone, certainly if you listen to a lot of dance music it won't be the best thing, solid state is more suited to those. However, if your listening taste is varied enough and you listen to the ocassional dace track these are amazing. Don't think 15 watts are too bad tbh. My amp is rated at 45 watts/channel in triode and 20 in ultra linear. I usually listen to 20 watt mode, even at 11 o clock it is loud enough for my relatively efficient (89db) floorstanders. I think power ratings on valves in general are more conservative than solid states....I previously had a 40 watt ss amp and it sounds much less powerful than the 20watt amp. If you are looking for good budget valve amps, try unison research, dark voice and cayin. If you look around for Cayin on fleabay, you might get a bargain...the build quality and performace for the price is astonishing. However, make sure your existing speakers will work well with them. Valve amps are warm in general, I don't like them when they are partnered with warm speakers....it just sounds too woolly.

Hope this helps,

Shafin

 

[WinterRacer]

I can see lots of disadvantages to valve amps, low power output and high distortion to name two, but what are the advantages? Why are they still made and bought?

 

[shafesk]

valve amps are still bought today simply because it sounds more real and intimate. It might be inferior to a ss amp in terms of specs but anyone who knows anything about hifi know that specs are not the be all and end of all. I could go on and on about how they sound but it has to be heard to be appreciated.

 

[WinterRacer]

valve amps are still bought today simply because it sounds more real and intimate. It might be inferior to a ss amp in terms of specs but anyone who knows anything about hifi know that specs are not the be all and end of all. I could go on and on about how they sound but it has to be heard to be appreciated.

Why would a valve amp sound more real and intimate than a SS amp? Is the distortion they add somehow adding to the music making it sound in some way more real? Is it something they add, e.g., nice sounding distortion, or something they don't do, e.g., they don't distort the way SS amps do but can't yet bet measured)?

Thanks.

 

[shafesk]

Yes they essentially have a different sort of distortion compared to ss amps which is more pleasing to the ear. Don't ask me whether its 1st order, 2nd order or whatever order of distortion that is though, I will leave that for a more qualified forum member to answer. Its kinda like if you have a digital distortion pedal for a guitar vs a tube distortion pedal, the tube one sounds crunchier and has a more palpable feel. The digital one sounds clean but feels fake.

 

[lindsayt]

I can see lots of disadvantages to valve amps, low power output and high distortion to name two, but what are the advantages? Why are they still made and bought?

Advantages of valve amps include lower distortion at lower power levels, typically in the nano watt to milliwatt range. Subjectively this makes valve amps better at low level details, as well as sounding more natural and less synthetic than solid state amps in the midrange.

Take a good valve amp and use it on medium efficiency speakers for the midrange and you'll understand why they are still made. Take a good valve amp and use it with a good pair of high efficiency speakers and you'll understand why valve amps are still bought.

 

[floyd droid]

It's an experience not for everyone, *certainly if you listen to a lot of dance music it won't be the best thing*, solid state is more suited to those.

Unless, of course, if your speakers have a pair of Audio Research Reference 750s up their bottom .

My 845s dont fair too badly either .

 

[lindsayt]

It is fair to say that, in general, valve amplifiers have a higher output impedance than solid state amplifiers, and therefore a lower damping factor which results subjectively in a less tight bass. However the effect of this is less than the difference in bass tightness between different speakers so that an easy to drive speaker with tight bass with a valve amplifier will have tighter bass overall than a speaker with bloomy bass with solid state amplification.

At higher volumes, output transformer quality is important for valve amps which have output transformers - which is most of them with exceptions such as the Graaf ones. Output transformers can get saturated, resulting in higher levels of bass distortion.

Optimum choice of amplifer: solid state or valve push pull or valve SET will depend upon the amplification task, the quality of execution of the amplifier design, the compromises that the listener is happiest with.

 

[jaxwired]

I tend to agree with the audio critic:

The Vacuum-Tube Lie
This lie is also, in a sense, about a peripheral matter, since vacuum tubes are hardly mainstream in the age of silicon. It's an all-pervasive lie, however, in the high-end audio market; just count the tube-equipment ads as a percentage of total ad pages in the typical high-end magazine. Unbelievable! And so is, of course, the claim that vacuum tubes are inherently superior to transistors in audio applications--don't you believe it.

Tubes are great for high-powered RF transmitters and microwave ovens but not, at the turn of the century, for amplifiers, preamps, or (good grief!) digital components like CD and DVD players. What's wrong with tubes? Nothing, really. There's nothing wrong with gold teeth, either, even for upper incisors (that Mideastern grin); it's just that modern dentistry offers more attractive options. Whatever vacuum tubes can do in a piece of audio equipment, solid-state devices can do better, at lower cost, with greater reliability. Even the world's best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier and will almost certainly need more servicing (tube replacements, rebiasing, etc.) during its lifetime. (Idiotic designs such as 8-watt single-ended triode amplifiers are of course exempt, by default, from such comparisons since they have no solid-state counterpart.)

As for the "tube sound," there are two possibilities: (1) It's a figment of the deluded audiophile's imagination, or (2) it's a deliberate coloration introduced by the manufacturer to appeal to corrupted tastes, in which case a solid-state design could easily mimic the sound if the designer were perverse enough to want it that way.

Yes, there exist very special situations where a sophisticated designer of hi-fi electronics might consider using a tube (e.g., the RF stage of an FM tuner), but those rare and narrowly qualified exceptions cannot redeem the common, garden-variety lies of the tube marketers, who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.

 

[CnoEvil]

Just like everything else in Hifi, Valve amps devide opinion. It is very easy to get caught up in their downside and reject them out of hand as obsolete dinosaurs.....this in my view is a mistake.

As has already been said, there is good and bad.....just like SS amps. If you like how they sound, little else will do....so stck with brands like Unison Research, Icon Audio, Jadis, Quad and Pure Sound (to name but a few).

As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have a good valve amp than a lot of AB/D SS amps, but it is very personal, as some people hate them.....so what I'm saying is......go and listen for yourself, and don' get caught up in any preconceptions.

 

[eggontoast]

who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.

I think you will find that valve production and demand in audio and guitar amplification is currently on the increase, so not that obsolete.

 

[floyd droid]

Okey doke chaps lets try to get this back on track a little bit in regards to gbhsi1s original post. The guys going to get tied up in knots at this rate. Had to chuckle at some of the replies but there ya go.

If you are looking in gb. Your Neats are a relatively easy load , so unless you want to lift your roof off 15w should drive em ok.

Cheaper than 600 quid. Ok here goes and its a no brainer tbh.

I seem to remember that in the past you have posted in regards to your set up being a tad on the wall paper stripping side,lol.

Maybe this has prompted you into looking for a move over to the dark side ?. Hold tight i will get there in a minute .

Im guessing you cant get a dem amp in your mits to play with soooooooooo.

Ariand FV34B 2 x 40 watter (less scary for you). 4 and 8 ohm taps. Runs on EL34s so that will give you what you are after soundwise 'velvety' awful expression but i think i know what you mean. Gorgeous looking thing and a direct ripoff in the looks dept from unison research.

14 day money back if ye dont like it. Free delivery. No middle man !!.

Yours for 570 quid Sir. Downside, out of stock next lot due in August .

Goto frozen-banana.co.uk.

I have nowt at all to do with this company btw mods.

 

[floyd droid]

Just like everything else in Hifi, Valve amps devide opinion. It is very easy to get caught up in their downside and reject them out of hand as obsolete dinosaurs.....this in my view is a mistake. As has already been said, there is good and bad.....just like SS amps. If you like how they sound, little else will do....so stck with brands like Unison Research, Icon Audio, Jadis, Quad and Pure Sound (to name but a few). As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have a good valve amp than a lot of AB/D SS amps, but it is very personal, as some people hate them.....so what I'm saying is......go and listen for yourself, and don' get caught up in any preconceptions.

And amen to that , good post cno :clap:

 

[lindsayt]

Well I would suggest that the Audio Critic needs to take some THD+N measurements or do some Google homework to look up some measurements that someone else has done.

If you Google "Yamamoto A-08 Stereophile" you can look up the Stereophile measurements of this 2 watt 45 tube based amplifier. At first sight the distortion measurements (THD+N vs power) look horrendous, until you look at the scale on the bottom of the graph and calibrate that to in-room volumes with your speakers. 0.1 watts would give me about 93 dbs with my 103 db speakers. That's much louder than I normally listen at. With low efficiency speakers of 87 dbs sensitivity 0.1 watts would give you about 77dbs which is still a generous level.

Now Google "Chord SPM 14000 Stereophile" and "Bel Canto eVo 200.2 Stereophile". At first glance the distortion measurements look much better, but remember our stupidly high cut-off power on the left hand side of the graph. The Chord and the Bel Canto have steadily rising graphs at the left hand cut-off point, the Yamamoto's is falling.

We don't really know for sure what happens to the left of the cut-off point because no one has properly measured it for these amps. Mainly because the commonly used THD+N measuring equipment has too much internal electrical noise to enable accurate measurements to be made at lower power levels.

If we extrapolate the Stereophile graphs it looks as if the Chord and the Bel Canto will start producing more THD+N distortion than the Yamamoto at somewhere between 1 and 10 milliwatts into 8 ohm speakers. In terms of volume that's 73 to 83 dbs with my speakers, and 57 to 67 dbs with 87 db efficient speakers. Normal human conversation happens at 50 to 65 dbs.

The most disturbing thing is that it's likely that at 0.1 milliwatt the Chord and the Bel Canto will be rising towards 10% THD+N distortion and by the time we get to 1 microwatt will be well above 10%. 1 microwatt equates to 43 dbs with my speakers meaning that solid state amps will be really bad for low level details with my speakers.

There are solid state amps (the Stereophile website specialises in hugely expensive amps) that measure better than the Chord and Bel Canto for THD+N that are likely to start producing more distortion than the Yamamoto at somewhere between 0.1 and 1 milliwatt.

Something else to bear in mind is the use of negative feedback. Without this solid state amps would have much higher THD+N figures. Valve amps like the Yamamoto don't use negative feedback.

I am sick and tired of reading declarations that solid state amps produce less distortion than valves - full stop, with no provisos. Distortion of solid state vs valve amps. It's all a big fat "it depends".

 

[shafesk]

who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.

I think you will find that valve production and demand in audio and guitar amplification is currently on the increase, so not that obsolete.

THe same point I was going to make, its hardly an obsolete technology if its on the increase. Anyhow, distortion and noise ratios are not a measure of the enjoyment people derive from it. Even with all the pops and clicks, even in the 21st century new vinyl adopters are fairly common.

 

[Overdose]

who want you to buy into an obsolete technology.

I think you will find that valve production and demand in audio and guitar amplification is currently on the increase, so not that obsolete.

Demand has absolutely nothing to do with obsolescence.

 

[shafesk]

of course it does, people don't demand something inferior for the same money especially if its going obsolete. E.g. Hd-dvd player prices after it lost the warner deal....prices tumbled!

 

[gbhsi1]

Okey doke chaps lets try to get this back on track a little bit in regards to gbhsi1s original post. The guys going to get tied up in knots at this rate. Had to chuckle at some of the replies but there ya go.

If you are looking in gb. Your Neats are a relatively easy load , so unless you want to lift your roof off 15w should drive em ok.

Cheaper than 600 quid. Ok here goes and its a no brainer tbh.

I seem to remember that in the past you have posted in regards to your set up being a tad on the wall paper stripping side,lol.

Maybe this has prompted you into looking for a move over to the dark side ?. Hold tight i will get there in a minute .

Im guessing you cant get a dem amp in your mits to play with soooooooooo.

Ariand FV34B 2 x 40 watter (less scary for you). 4 and 8 ohm taps. Runs on EL34s so that will give you what you are after soundwise 'velvety' awful expression but i think i know what you mean. Gorgeous looking thing and a direct ripoff in the looks dept from unison research.

14 day money back if ye dont like it. Free delivery. No middle man !!.

Yours for 570 quid Sir. Downside, out of stock next lot due in August .

Goto frozen-banana.co.uk.

I have nowt at all to do with this company btw mods.

Cheers Floyd Droid! I'm moving to a new property soon and was thinking of a total change so will check the above mentioned amp. I am looking at valve amplification and also possibly change my speakers to elac 330 - they look sublime and I think would suit valve amps perfectly. Nice to see its created some kind of debate