usb cables expensive v cheap

[Bodfish]

if alan shaw don't believe in wires ,why he in anniversary model shl5 speakers changed wires to expensive ones ?

Because he understands his target market.

 

[Andrew Everard]

I think it's clear Mr Roth should visit his GP.

Similarly one of his satisfied customers, AudioTruth: http://is.gd/SAd3UU

 

[pauln]

if alan shaw don't believe in wires ,why he in anniversary model shl5 speakers changed wires to expensive ones ?

This is well known on the Harbeth users forum, I would imagine the prevailing opinion there is substantially different to yours:

The SE fancy cable is fitted for marketing reasons and marketing reasons alone.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?1582-Testing-P3ESR-SE

 

[relocated]

An audible difference between USB cables ?

Really ?

Laughed so hard my bum bled.

I found this interesting. I assume Mr Roth looks forward to / hopes for favourable reviews for his products from the WHF reviewing team, but with comment he's effectively said that we can't trust WHF reviews. A bit of a Gerald Ratner moment methinks.

Ifor. Here's how I see it (well, hear it). I can hear differences between loudspeakers. I can hear differences between amplifiers. I can hear differences between systems where an amplifier and a speaker are joined together in one box. Sometimes, even at my age, I can hear differences between certain types of interconnect and even some types of speaker cables. If one compares poorly built cable made out of scrag-ends from the copper bin against a well-manufactured, correctly terminated multi-strand cable, then science says there will be a difference in performance - it's not just my ears.

However, to suggest that anyone on this planet can actually hear a difference between 'audio' (actually, data) carried by USB cables is for me, in all probability, unlikely. I tend to deal with science and facts. For me, what is relevant is what is happening at either end of the USB cable. I kind of know about this stuff.

With regard to your specific comment regarding a 'Gerald Ratner moment' and your suggestion that 'we can't trust What HiFi reviews' - I take great personal offence. I haven't suggested that one cannot trust What HiFi reviews - if What HiFi writers believe that there is an audible difference between USB cables then that is entirely up to them and it's the choice of the readers as to whether their advice should be followed.

I believe that I am also at liberty to make my own choices on this - I read What HiFi with great interest and have respect for all that work there. But - I don't agree with everything they say and sometimes I strongly disagree with their views on certain products or technologies. This is my right as an individual living in Great Britain, rather than say, North Korea. I also have the balls (as someone from Roth AV) to post occasionally on this forum, even if it does mean exposing myself to this type of insulting and obnoxious post.

Thank you.

Very well said.

Some time ago it seemed that there were N Korea tendancies but the moderating policy now is significantly more grown up and very welcome.

 

[relocated]

Knowing more sometimes can be more confusing.

Brilliant. A career in stand up awaits.

Or middle management

2 from 2!

On current form El Hefe and the other confused contributors could run the NHS. I can't imagine anyone doing worse than the grim reaper doing the job at the moment.

 

[steve_1979]

James - I don't think it would be just buzz or pops if the problems manuifested themselves as missing data.

I also think that any missing data problems would only realy manifest themselves on High Res data streaming. A 192 / 24 bit stream transfers many hundred more times data than a low rated MP3. You probably could stream the MP3 on a piece of string.

I think that there might be some improvement in SQ with some more expensive cables for some high res files

In don't mean to sound rude but you clearly have no understanding of how digital data is transferred through a USB cable and reconstructed when it gets to its destination.

 

[chebby]

if alan shaw don't believe in wires ,why he in anniversary model shl5 speakers changed wires to expensive ones ?

Because he understands his target market.

I am part of his target market (albeit purely aspirational until I have £1500 that isn't required for more important things).

As such, I think the use of so called 'audiophile' cable in Special Editions is mischievous, given that the designer doesn't believe in their efficacy (and says so on his own website to people that include his customers).

I have Mordaunt Short 'Pearl Limited Edition' MS20i speakers that were an entirely different design to the ordinary MS20s. The 'Pearls' have better (and different) tweeters and better mid/bass drivers and a different crossover and were a complete re-design by Robin Marshall (Epos founder and designer when his company was owned by MS).

Alan Shaw is playing a slightly dangerous game by 'pimping' his speakers with expensive cables whilst - at the same time - telling his customers that they make no difference and it was just done for 'marketing reasons'. Would have been better to leave the cables alone and select some fancy 'special edition'' veneers instead.

 

[BronC]

James - I don't think it would be just buzz or pops if the problems manuifested themselves as missing data.

I also think that any missing data problems would only realy manifest themselves on High Res data streaming. A 192 / 24 bit stream transfers many hundred more times data than a low rated MP3. You probably could stream the MP3 on a piece of string.

I think that there might be some improvement in SQ with some more expensive cables for some high res files

In don't mean to sound rude but you clearly have no understanding of how digital data is transferred through a USB cable and reconstructed when it gets to its destination.

No offence taken - but it is a very complex area. I refer you to this link as an example of its complexity http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtml

The last paragraph on the first page is very informative about the possibility of data loss during streaming of digital audio and visio

 

[Bodfish]

I am part of his target market (albeit purely aspirational until I have £1500 that isn't required for more important things).

As such, I think the use of so called 'audiophile' cable in Special Editions is mischievous, given that the designer doesn't believe in their efficacy (and says so on his own website to people that include his customers).

I have Mordaunt Short 'Pearl Limited Edition' MS20i speakers that were an entirely different design to the ordinary MS20s. The 'Pearls' have better (and different) tweeters and better mid/bass drivers and a different crossover and were a complete re-design by Robin Marshall (Epos founder and designer when his company was owned by MS).

Alan Shaw is playing a slightly dangerous game by 'pimping' his speakers with expensive cables whilst - at the same time - telling his customers that they make no difference and it was just done for 'marketing reasons'. Would have been better to leave the cables alone and select some fancy 'special exition' veneers instead.

Still after all this time eh Chebby? Now that's dedication

I'd agree, in part. Calling them 'SE' versions is a little disingenuous - as you say, those Moraunt Short Pearl's carried route and branch changes to almost every element bar the cabinet itself.

My understanding is that these 'SE' versions are be built and badged as such at the request of Harbeth distributors in certain (non UK it has to be said) markets and not because Alan Shaw personally thinks they are any better than the non SE model (and you're right, he cleary does't think that at all).

The HUG moderator on the thread linked above goes on to say that some market distributors mandate the use of 'fancy' wiring in their production runs. As a manufacturer, seems to me it would be foollish not to ceed to such a request regardless of your personal views.

 

[steve_1979]

James - I don't think it would be just buzz or pops if the problems manuifested themselves as missing data.

I also think that any missing data problems would only realy manifest themselves on High Res data streaming. A 192 / 24 bit stream transfers many hundred more times data than a low rated MP3. You probably could stream the MP3 on a piece of string.

I think that there might be some improvement in SQ with some more expensive cables for some high res files

In don't mean to sound rude but you clearly have no understanding of how digital data is transferred through a USB cable and reconstructed when it gets to its destination.

No offence taken - but it is a very complex area. I refer you to this link as an example of its complexity http://www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.shtml

The last paragraph on the first page is very informative about the possibility of data loss during streaming of digital audio and visio

Ooops. I made a bit of a pigs ear of that quote. (Bloody Nexus keyboard)

 

[ifor]

I intend to make this my last post in this thread and bow out as gracefully as I can.

I also have the balls (as someone from Roth AV) to post occasionally on this forum, even if it does mean exposing myself to this type of insulting and obnoxious post.

Please accept my apologies; I certainly did not intend to offend as much as I clearly have. I sincerely respect you for putting your head above the parapet once in a while, but I do think the tone of your original post was crude and uncalled for.

I tend to deal with science and facts. For me, what is relevant is what is happening at either end of the USB cable. I kind of know about this stuff.

As do others, but not all experts know all the stuff and so some may conclude differently. It's the evangelical attitudes expressed in some posts, particularly by the other muppets that know as little about the subject as I do, that I find so irritating.

That's exactly what you meant: either trust all WHF reviews, or don't trust any of its reviews. Why should it be that way? You may agree with some of its reviews as it correlates with your experience, but if your experience is different to some of its other reviews, so be it. What's wrong in that?

I see where you are coming from, but it's all down to what we mean by trust. Do I trust the WHF reviewers? Yes, I do. Does this mean I will agree with all their opinions and star ratings? No, it doesn't, but I do trust the reviews to be true reflections of what they auditioned.

I think that's all my responses. Incidentally, I've never conducted a cable comparison, either analogue or digital, so I have no view based on personal experience and neither have I tried to suggest I have. I come to places like this in the hope of learning stuff, but when threads go like this one it ain't easy.

 

[BenLaw]

To all those who believe that they have golden ears; click on the link at the bottom of Craig M's post then scroll down until you get to the link to the McGurk effect and watch it. Your ears lie to you most of the time.

NwAvGuy has a similar attitude to Alan Shaw (Harbeth) - he is an engineer who does not believe the HiFi myths and like AS he can provide plenty of evidence to back up his beliefs.

I think what most people here are trying to do is to prevent people wasting a lot money on things that make no difference.

"Let your ears decide" is possibly the worst advice to give anyone.

if alan shaw don't believe in wires ,why he in anniversary model shl5 speakers changed wires to expensive ones ?

There is diffrence because the wires are made from copper,silver,mixed content etc...data still flow,no problem,that is ok,but added material to wire ads flavour ,and changing sound ,not drastic .All blind test fail because brain of human remembers only fractions of music track which was played.some instruments are missing . :dance:

I somebody doesn't believe you can consider example with the light as data,light in bulbs , light in most cases do its job,as data do flowing inside wire.There are variuos colors of light which :led,diods,ect...Or you still believe that everything is placebo effect :rofl:

This must be one of the most incoherent posts I've ever read on this forum, and that's saying something.

Let me try and understand: USB cables are like coffee? But they're also like different coloured lights? Is coffee like different coloured lights? Even though it's brown? And this disproves the theory of a placebo effect? A simple yes will suffice if I've followed you correctly.

 

[hammill]

To all those who believe that they have golden ears; click on the link at the bottom of Craig M's post then scroll down until you get to the link to the McGurk effect and watch it. Your ears lie to you most of the time.

NwAvGuy has a similar attitude to Alan Shaw (Harbeth) - he is an engineer who does not believe the HiFi myths and like AS he can provide plenty of evidence to back up his beliefs.

I think what most people here are trying to do is to prevent people wasting a lot money on things that make no difference.

"Let your ears decide" is possibly the worst advice to give anyone.

if alan shaw don't believe in wires ,why he in anniversary model shl5 speakers changed wires to expensive ones ?

There is diffrence because the wires are made from copper,silver,mixed content etc...data still flow,no problem,that is ok,but added material to wire ads flavour ,and changing sound ,not drastic .All blind test fail because brain of human remembers only fractions of music track which was played.some instruments are missing . :dance:

I somebody doesn't believe you can consider example with the light as data,light in bulbs , light in most cases do its job,as data do flowing inside wire.There are variuos colors of light which :led,diods,ect...Or you still believe that everything is placebo effect :rofl:

This must be one of the most incoherent posts I've ever read on this forum, and that's saying something.

Let me try and understand: USB cables are like coffee? But they're also like different coloured lights? Is coffee like different coloured lights? Even though it's brown? And this disproves the theory of a placebo effect? A simple yes will suffice if I've followed you correctly.

I would mostly agree with you, apart from pointing out that coffee is black - anything else is an abomination.

 

[fr0g]

I would mostly agree with you, apart from pointing out that coffee is black - anything else is an abomination.

Ah, you see, coffee is purely subjective. As far as I know(I could be wrong), there is no objective data available on the taste.

Personally I think the best coffee is made with 100% boiling milk and instant!

Either that, or a very strong espresso, mixed with an equal amount of boiling milk.

...and sugar P

(and for a treat, a drop or 2 of Irish Whiskey)

 

[Andrew Everard]

Personally I think the best coffee is made with 100% boiling milk and instant!

Either that, or a very strong espresso, mixed with an equal amount of boiling milk.

Somehow, that took me back to my grandmother making

 

[hammill]

I would mostly agree with you, apart from pointing out that coffee is black - anything else is an abomination.

Ah, you see, coffee is purely subjective. As far as I know(I could be wrong), there is no objective data available on the taste.

Personally I think the best coffee is made with 100% boiling milk and instant!

Either that, or a very strong espresso, mixed with an equal amount of boiling milk.

...and sugar P

(and for a treat, a drop or 2 of Irish Whiskey)

No problem with the Whiskey

 

[fr0g]

Personally I think the best coffee is made with 100% boiling milk and instant!

Either that, or a very strong espresso, mixed with an equal amount of boiling milk.

Somehow, that took me back to my grandmother making

My Gran made Mellow Birds instant. My dad always said. "That's terrible coffee". I quite liked it, although never said

I should try that Camp stuff if it's available.

Horlicks time now though.

 

[relocated]

Personally I think the best coffee is made with 100% boiling milk and instant!

Either that, or a very strong espresso, mixed with an equal amount of boiling milk.

Somehow, that took me back to my grandmother making

Hellfire, that stuff was disgusting.

 

[Overdose]

However, to suggest that anyone on this planet can actually hear a difference between 'audio' (actually, data) carried by USB cables is for me, in all probability, unlikely. I tend to deal with science and facts. For me, what is relevant is what is happening at either end of the USB cable. I kind of know about this stuff.

James,

Knowing a bit about what happens at the ends of a USB cable myself, I would question your science and facts.

If the USB cable is simply carrying async data, where the source and sink have flow control ability and sink timing is independent of the source clock, and the USB cable is not supplying power to the sink, then I would agree with your stance.

If however (as I believe is more common) the USB cable is being asked also to supply clean, low impedance power to the sink, and / or stable, jitter free timing information, then I think that there is a chance that poor quality cables MAY be able to impact the sound quality.

What is your view on this?

Here's my view.

USB cables carry electricity, not audio signals.

Assuming at least a basic level of quality control, the cable manufacturers would batch test the cables to ensure that the cables did their job to specification. That specification being to be capable of all the types of data and electrical transfer possible on the USB bus.

So the cables either meet spec or not, if not, they are not properly designed and can be ruled out of the equation.

Properly designd doesn't mean expensive, as this type of cable construction is simple and cheap, needing very little conductor material, ie usually the most expensive bit.

This is how things work from a basic manufacturing standpoint, no magic, nothing particulary high tech, just good old fashioned quality control.

I see where you are coming from, but as is usual from the 'accessories' department of hifi in particular, much is made of nothing. Non existent, or inconsequential problems are expanded and presented as some sort of real issue that will corrupt and compromise audio reproduction. Jitter is one such problem (or not as the case may be). These non issues are magnified by marketing departments and presented as a problem that needs a solution, that solution usually involving some sort of pseudo science to convince the punter that he needs to resolve these non issues and spend silly amounts of money.

If these problems are actually evident in anyones system, then the design of the offending components is already horribly compromised and no end of foo is going to fix it.

 

[Overdose]

Alan Shaw is playing a slightly dangerous game by 'pimping' his speakers with expensive cables whilst - at the same time - telling his customers that they make no difference and it was just done for 'marketing reasons'. Would have been better to leave the cables alone and select some fancy 'special edition'' veneers instead.

Absolutely. +1

 

[pauln]

Alan Shaw is playing a slightly dangerous game by 'pimping' his speakers with expensive cables whilst - at the same time - telling his customers that they make no difference and it was just done for 'marketing reasons'. Would have been better to leave the cables alone and select some fancy 'special edition'' veneers instead.

Absolutely. +1

I don't think he had a choice:

The HUG moderator on the thread linked above goes on to say that some market distributors mandate the use of 'fancy' wiring in their production runs. As a manufacturer, seems to me it would be foollish not to ceed to such a request regardless of your personal views.

I suppose he could have chosen not to sell products in those particular markets at all...

 

[Bodfish]

Well, as it happens, a new set of gloss veneers are available too.

Not sure I understand your last comment pauln. I suppose he could also have cut off his nose to spite his face?

 

[pauln]

Well, as it happens, a new set of gloss veneers are available too.

Not sure I understand your last comment pauln. I suppose he could also have cut off his nose to spite his face?

Just that he could have said 'No - I won't compromise my beliefs' and consequently lost that section of the market.

However, as he's a businessman, he didn't do that, he gave the customers what they wanted but at the same time was completely honest about the worthlessness of the fancy internal wiring.

 

[basshound]

Just thought I`d throw this one into the mix !!

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-usb-to-ipodipadiphone-cable-5m-p-5598.html#.UT4Qd9Z7K84

 

[Covenanter]

Just thought I`d throw this one into the mix !!

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-usb-to-ipodipadiphone-cable-5m-p-5598.html#.UT4Qd9Z7K84

That is just wonderful! I especially liked "The difference you hear between solders ..." :rofl:

Chris